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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: BridgetM on Thursday 17 July 25 18:11 BST (UK)
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Ernest Robert Machell died 16 November 2014 and was buried Mildura, Mallee, Victoria, Australia. His date of birth is given as 27 September 1925. He had at least 2 sons, who both have children, all with the surname Machell.
But Ernest Robert wasn’t actually born a Machell! He fell out with his parents as a teenager, and moved in with his best friend’s family in Auburn, Chisholm, Victoria, Australia, and “adopted” their surname. Is there anyway to find out what Ernest Robert’s original surname was?
I’m finding Australian records extremely challenging.
Thanks!
Bridget
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Have you looked at his marriage?
It is indexed under Machell (actually with a typo as MCHELL) and English (his wife is Gibbons). You can buy the Victorian certs as a digital image. For $Aus 20
ENGLISH
Ernest Robert
Marriage
GIBBONS, Marie Teresa
1957
17533/1957
GIBBONS
Marie Teresa
Marriage
ENGLISH, Ernest Robert
1957
17533/1957
GIBBONS
Marie Teresa
Marriage
MCHELL, Ernest Robert
1957
17533/1957
MCHELL
Ernest Robert
Marriage
GIBBONS, Marie Teresa
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Where can I order a digital copy of the marriage? I knew he’d married Marie Teresa Gibbons, but didn’t know I could see the details.
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WW 2 - different date of birth 17 June 1925
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=6052877
Coming back with link for marriage purchase
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Victorian BDMs
Tap on the entry and it takes you to a window where you can choose…just choose the $20 one, then checkout.
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/6868af1fcd0ea946dc2b2da6/results?q=efamily
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Suspecting the date of birth might be false on the ww2 doc. (So as to make him 18 )
Added..twice on that doc the day is entered as 27 and then altered.
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Thank you so much! I had no idea this site existed!
Bridget
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His birth isn’t leaping out though!
Are his parents perhaps Ernest Patrick English & Irene Grace née Davey/Davy
She died 1932 and he remarried
Then he died of wounds in Egypt in 1942. (Leaves everything to his wife)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/204295950?searchTerm=Irene%20grace%20English%20hawthorn
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I am an idiot. Birth won’t show until 100 years after the date. So you will have to wait until 28 Sept for his birth certificate if you need it. (But hopefully the marriage tells you all)
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You have been a wonderful help! His mother’s maiden name was actually Dawe, not Davy, as Ernest Robert English/Machell put on his marriage record. I have found 3 of his siblings—born between 1921 and 1924. The parents married in 1921.
Thank you so much!
Bridget
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How did you rule out the Davy/English marriage?
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I didn’t find an English/Davy marriage?
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Ernest Robert Machell’s father was (supposedly) Michael Patrick English.
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Ernest Robert Machell’s father was (supposedly) Michael Patrick English.
Which matches the death notice I linked earlier which names a son Ernest
https://my.rio.bdm.vic.gov.au/efamily-history/6879526ce7aeac4ef107a15c/results?q=efamily
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Siblings of the Ernest who died 1942 named in this memoriam notice
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/206363727?searchTerm=%E2%80%9CErnest%2520English%E2%80%9D
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Death notice for Irene Winifred English.
No Ernest named in the children in 1930. (Which is too soon for your Ernest to have left home)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202237762?searchTerm=Irene%20Winifred%20english
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I agree. On the marriage record 1957 Ernest Robert Machell gives his father’s name as MICHAEL Patrick English (deceased). His mother is Irene Davy—no mention of her being deceased.
It’s all a bit confusing, and some of the links you sent won’t open. But, why did Ernest Robert have his father’s name wrong on the marriage record, and why didn’t he mention that his mother was deceased?
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Grave markers
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/212635715/vera-edith-english
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1928 Electoral rolls Kooyong, Auburn
13 Carnarvon Street
Irene Grace English – home duties
Ernest Patrick English - labourer
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Be aware of 2 different couples ---- !
Irene Winnifred DAWE who married Michael Edw ENGLISH in 1921
Irene Grace DAVY who married Ernest Patrick ENGLISH in 1924
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My Ernest Robert English who became a Machell gives his father’s name as MICHAEL Patrick English, but I’m becoming more convinced that his father’s name was actually Ernest Patrick English. Why he lied, I don’t know?
He does give his mother’s name as Irene Davy.
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His father died when Ernest Robert was quite young, and if he had been estranged from his father for some years before that, Ernest Robert may just have been confused about his father's full name.
I wonder if Ernest Robert moved away from his father's house when his father re-married in 1937.
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You have been a wonderful help! His mother’s maiden name was actually Dawe, not Davy, as Ernest Robert English/Machell put on his marriage record. I have found 3 of his siblings—born between 1921 and 1924. The parents married in 1921.
Thank you so much!
Bridget
My Ernest Robert English who became a Machell gives his father’s name as MICHAEL Patrick English, but I’m becoming more convinced that his father’s name was actually Ernest Patrick English. Why he lied, I don’t know?
He does give his mother’s name as Irene Davy.
DAWE or DAVY on his marriage record?
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Ernest Patrick English
Born 4 Nov 1904, Son of John ENGLISH and Margaret BROWN
He enlisted for military service on 1 June 1940
He died from wounds in Nov 1942
Military records are available from NAA
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/56150232/ernest-patrick-english
• Ernest Patrick ENGLISH married Irene Grace DAVY in 1924
1928 Electoral rolls Kooyong, Auburn
13 Carnarvon Street
Irene Grace English – home duties
Ernest Patrick English – labourer
1931 Electoral rolls Kooyong, Glenferrie
17 Bell Street
Ernest Patrick English – labourer
Irene Grace English – home duties
• Irene Grace ENGLISH died in 1932
1936 Electoral rolls Kooyong, Glenferrie
50 Lynch Street
Ernest Patrick English – labourer
Margaret English - home duties (This is Ernest’s mother)
• Ernest Patrick ENGLISH married in 1937 to Margaret Agnes WILLIAMS
1937 Electoral rolls Yarra, Hawthorne
20 Bowen Street
Ernest Patrick English – labourer
Margaret Agnes English - home duties
50 Lynch Street
Margaret English - home duties
1941 Electoral rolls Yarra, Hawthorne
154 Burwood Rd
Ernest Patrick English – labourer
Margaret Agnes English - home duties
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His father died when Ernest Robert was quite young, and if he had been estranged from his father for some years before that, Ernest Robert may just have been confused about his father's full name.
I wonder if Ernest Robert moved away from his father's house when his father re-married in 1937.
Do you mean his mother died when he was quite young?
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PatLac
Please read the thread thoroughly rather than wasting time with repeated info.
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PatLac
Please read the thread thoroughly rather than wasting time with repeated info.
What repeated info?
BridgeM sais "His mother’s maiden name was actually Dawe, not Davy, as Ernest Robert English/Machell put on his marriage record." and then "He does give his mother’s name as Irene Davy." I just want to know which is the correct info on his marriage record.
And it's his mother who died young (whoever was his mother, both Irene ENGLISH died in 1930 and 1932), not his father.
Irene Grace (nee DAVY) died in Auburn South, which is where Ernest Robert's family lived, right?
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I’m sorry for the confusion!
On his marriage certificate Robert Ernest Machell gives his parents’ names as Michael Patrick English and Irene DAVY. Because I couldn’t find a Michael Patrick English marriage to an Irene Davy I assumed he’d married Irene Dawes.
I’m now quite sure that his parents were ERNEST Patrick English and Irene Grace DAVY.
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Thank you, Neale1961, for all your help!
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Thank you BridgetM, that makes sense. Maybe Ernest Patrick and Michael were siblings?
ENGLISH
Arth Mich
Birth
Margt
BROWN
Jno
CARLTON W HOSP
1899
25280/1899
ENGLISH
Ernt Patk
Birth
Margt
BROWN
Jno
KEW
1904
26710/1904
His brother married in 1929
CURTIS
Myrtle Fanny
Marriage
ENGLISH, Arth Michael
1929
681/1929
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What repeated info?
PatLac, Please re-read the thread thoroughly to avoid wasteful repetition.
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What repeated info?
PatLac, Please re-read the thread thoroughly to avoid wasteful repetition.
I have read the thread, maybe you could tell me what is the 'wasteful repetition' instead of repeating yourself.
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Irene Grace DAVY born 1907 Hawthorn
Daughter of Faith STONE and Robert Alexander DAVY – married in 1891 Victoria
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/79804790/robert-alexander-davy
1924 Electoral rolls Kooyong, Auburn
34 Tooronga Rd
Robert Alexander DAVY – labourer
Faith DAVY – home duties
1931 Electoral rolls Kooyong, Auburn
41 Tooronga Rd
Robert Alexander DAVY – labourer
Faith DAVY – home duties
1936 Electoral rolls Auburn
164 Rathmines Rd
Robert Alexander DAVY – pensioner
Faith DAVY – home duties
• Faith DAVY died in 1939
1949 Electoral rolls, Auburn
65 Victoria Rd
Robert Alexander DAVY – pensioner
A son, Arthur DAVY living with him
______________________________
1936 Electoral rolls Kooyong, Auburn
360 Auburn Rd
Eileen Myrtle MACHELL – home duties
George Alfred MACHELL - mechanic
1949 Electoral rolls Chisolm, Auburn
690 Burwood Rd
Eileen Myrtle MACHELL – home duties
George Alfred MACHELL – driver
George Francis MACHELL - Engineer
Ernest Robert MACHELL - printer
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BridgetM, Do you know if your Ernest Robert knew any of his grandparents?
When Ernest Robert’s mother died, it would have been quite normal at this time, for grandparents to step in and help with the up-bringing of grandchildren.
Except that his paternal grandfather John ENGLISH had died in 1908, when Ernest Patrick was just a boy, and his grandmother Margaret seems to have never remarried. She was probably just getting by as a widow.
His Davy grandparents were quite elderly, and his maternal grandmother Faith Davy died in 1939.
They were all working class families and during the depression years would have struggled to support another child. Then when Ernest Patrick went off to the war and then died young, what was to happen to young Ernest Robert. ?
I wonder of the Davy family knew the Machell family who seem to be living in the same area.
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Hi Neale1961, I’d always heard that Robert Ernest had a falling out with his family, which is why he moved in with the Machells, and changed his surname. But I’m now wondering if the Machells took him in because he had no one else? In 1943, when he enlisted in the army, he has E. M. Machell listed as his guardian.
The stories families tell, that soon become family truth. The family rift, and teenage rebellion, is certainly a more dramatic story—and one I’ve always believed.
Bridget
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George Francis MACHELL, the son of George Alfred and Eileen Myrtle (nee DALEY) died 1 Apr 2020 at age 96 in Victoria, Australia.
He was possibly the friend into whose MACHELL family the young Ernest Robert moved.
George Francis enlisted for the WW2 forces in 1941 gave a birthdate of 16/2/22.
Sue
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George Francis “Frank” Machell was the friend.
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Hi Neale1961, I’d always heard that Robert Ernest had a falling out with his family, which is why he moved in with the Machells, and changed his surname. But I’m now wondering if the Machells took him in because he had no one else? In 1943, when he enlisted in the army, he has E. M. Machell listed as his guardian.
The stories families tell, that soon become family truth. The family rift, and teenage rebellion, is certainly a more dramatic story—and one I’ve always believed.
Bridget
I would have to say that it is quite a big step to take up the surname of another family.
From this young man's viewpoint, it in effect is in a way turning his back on his parentage. It would perhaps be more usually done in infancy or early childhood. Quite a bold step IMO. The"falling out" if that's what it was, must have been significant.
And a big step from the MACHELL family viewpoint too. To accept another child under your surname.
not to mention the financial aspects.
Do you think there was any other connections between the 2 families? Relatives or friends?
Sue
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Ernest Patrick ENGLISH was made a Ward of the Children’s Court in 1911 (along with his sister Marjorie) because his mother Margaret had means to support them, after her husband had died in 1908.
Their files are here
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/A10CCA91-F4C7-11E9-AE98-09D576B188B4?image=307
https://prov.vic.gov.au/search_journey/select?keywords=Ernest%20Patrick%20English&iud=true
Having grown up without a father figure, perhaps Ernest Patrick could not cope with his own children after his wife died.
Maybe “falling out with his father” was just a story to cover up family poverty and a parent-less child.
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Ernest Patrick English had only one child still alive, Ernest Robert English, and perhaps the father couldn’t, or wouldn’t, look after him, which is why the Machells stepped in. That’s a much sadder story, so perhaps Ernest Robert English tried to make himself a ‘hero’ of his life story with the drama of a teenage rebellion?
The Machells didn’t adopt Ernest, and he’s not buried with them. Maybe he was more of a foster child?