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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Leicestershire => Topic started by: Aquitaine on Sunday 13 July 25 12:39 BST (UK)
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Hi all, I need help I am trying to unravel these families, especially with the surname Goodman and Smith in 19th century. Working in GRO deaths for Elizabeth Smith who I know alive in 1911 living at 80 Kensington Street Leicester aged 85 yrs. Different ages on census. She was born Elizabeth Goodman and married Joseph Smith in 1858 Leicester her father John Goodman. Joseph Smith died after 1891 he was a shoemaker she had two children illegitimate before Edward Gee Goodman (1848-) and also a daughter Emily Mary Gee Goodman (1847-1892)
Elizabeth Smith died after 1911 Leicester
Joseph Smith died after 1891 Leicester
I have some trawling through GRO deaths for both Joseph and Elizabeth and been looking Welford Road Cemetery on deceased online as so many with this surname. Thanks.
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Hi,
Not researching those names but there is a death notice for Elizabeth Smith from 80 Kensington Street, Leicester in Leicester Chronicle September 11th 1915.
Cathy
Added Leicester evening mail 7th September 1915 gives her age as 89.
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Hi there thanks for your interest sorry it isnt the one Elizabeth Goodman married Joseph Smith in 1858 in Leicester. She was widowed so I think Joseph Smith was in the workhouse 1891 if I have the correct one. Thanks though.
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That newspaper article matches the death you have posted here
Hi all, I need help I am trying to unravel these families, especially with the surname Goodman and Smith in 19th century. Working in GRO deaths for Elizabeth Smith who I know alive in 1911 living at 80 Kensington Street Leicester aged 85 yrs.
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1861
Joseph age 30 bn Loughborough occ Cordwainer
Elizabeth age 34 bn Leicester
children
Helena Smith 2
Edward Goodman 12
Emily Goodman 14
Where do you have Joseph and Elizabeth in later census
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Hello everyone,
in 1858 Leicester Joseph Smith married Elizabeth Goodman (noted as Ann Elizabeth) a spinster, he was a shoemaker. She was born Belgrave Leicester.GRO certificate for Register Office Leicester Joseph Smith 30 yrs bachelor Shoemaker 20 Baker Street Belgravegate Leicester his father Joseph Smith Shoemaker married Ann Elizabeth Goodman Spinster 23 yrs 19 Baker Street Belgravegate Leicester her father John Goodman (dec) bricklayer
Yes the 1861 is the one I have.
1871 Barrow on Soar Mill Hill Joseph Smith 62 yrs,Elizabeth 50 yrs Edward Smith 11 yrs. (is that Edward Gee Goodman)
1881 Barrow on Soar Joseph Smith 72 yrs FWK (frame work knitter) born Nottinghamshire Elizabeth 60 yrs born Belgrave and Edward 21 yrs stonemason born Belgrave Leicester
1891 Leicester Lunatic Aslyum Joseph Smith 62 yrs
1901 80 Kensington Street Leicester Edward Smith ( I think he should be Goodman) Frances E Smith Elizabeth Smith mother widower 75 yrs Joseph Smith brother shoe riviter and Clara Smith neice
I dont know if I have got these jumbled up or twisted so bear with me! I am just trying to finish off these two families. I might have got some of this wrong.. thank you
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Edward Goodman was born 1848
GOODMAN, EDWARD GEE -
GRO Reference: 1848 Sept Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 15 Page 106
1861 that I posted he was age 12.
He can't be Edward Smith in 1871 age 11 and age 21 in 1881 :-\
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There is a possibility that Edward Goodman married Mary Elizabeth Hardy in Leicester 2nd October 1879 - he lists his father as Joseph Goodman occ Shoemaker
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In 1881 Edward Goodman is with his mother Elizabeth Smith. Also there his wife Mary and son Edward Goodman.
Elizabeth is 57 or 59 -Married -occ Box Maker. FindMyPast have her age as 37
Address 10, St John Street, Leicester St Margaret, Leicester
RG11
Piece 3170
Folio 81
Page 17
Edward Goodman son of Edward & Mary
GOODMAN, EDWARD mmn HARDY
GRO Reference: 1880 M Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 237
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1871 as Smith
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tva/
Elizabeth Smith 46 married head and fancy box maker with Edward 22 and Ellen Smith 12
**ADDED St. John Street
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Well done Willsy :). That also shows her as M for Married :-\
I see the address is 10 St John Street the same as the following census
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Thanks but good call from you first!
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There is an Elizabeth Smith at at 10 St John St in 1891 too ;D
With her is her son in law Joseph Hawkings and dtr Emma Hawkings :-\. The M for married is blotted over
RG12
Piece 2534
Folio 106
Page 29
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Had a look at burials after finding Amelia Hawkins death and there are 3 Hawkins children buried at Welford Road, the first died at John Street.
MMN is Astley
Emma Astley, age 19, father Thomas Astley, Lab., married Joseph Hawkins, age 21, Finisher, father Charles Hawkins, Hosiery, 5 Aug 1888, St. Paul's Leicester.
Wits. Alfred Bird, Ada Hawkins
There are 6 people in the plot but the only burial near the children's death is a
Beatrice Johnson bur 23 Mar 1894 of Sandiacre Street age 3
Hawkins
Rose 1890 Jul17 7mths JOHN STREET
Horace 1894 May 8 23mths Lower Sandiacre Street
Amelia 1894 May 8 3 Lower Sandiacre Street
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Good morning all and thank you for your efforts. I have deleted all my other census apart from 1861 and gone back to the drawing board! Start again! Elizabeth Goodman did marry Joseph Smith.
I have gone further back for you - I started with Joseph Allen who married Emily Goodman St Margarets Leicester in 1863 13 April. They end up in Hunslet Yorkshire. I know from the GRO births of her children her surname was Goodman. This is on FindMyPast - her father is noted as Edward Goodman ?? not so sure about that, but I thought I got her birth Emily Mary Gee Goodman illegitimate dau of Elizabeth Goodman bpt 1 Sep 1847 St George Leicester also Edward Gee 25 Sep 18 Illegitimate son of Elizabeth Goodman born 1 Morton's Yard Wigston Street Leicester.
So have I got the wrong people?? If you say Emily married a "Hawkings"
I appreciate all your efforts, this is a family I leave alone and come back to.
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Hi just a note for Willsy
Are the Welford Road Cemetery records available anywhere else than Deceasedonline do you know ?
thanks A.
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Welford Cemetery records are on the National burial index which is available on FindMyPast
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Is the census correct giving Joseph Hawkins as Son in law of Elizabeth Smith.
At least Elizabeth Smith is constant by living at 10 St John St in 1871/81/91. She is not there in 1901 though.
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Good morning all and thank you for your efforts. I have deleted all my other census apart from 1861 and gone back to the drawing board! Start again! Elizabeth Goodman did marry Joseph Smith.
I have gone further back for you - I started with Joseph Allen who married Emily Goodman St Margarets Leicester in 1863 13 April. They end up in Hunslet Yorkshire. I know from the GRO births of her children her surname was Goodman. This is on FindMyPast - her father is noted as Edward Goodman ?? not so sure about that, but I thought I got her birth Emily Mary Gee Goodman illegitimate dau of Elizabeth Goodman bpt 1 Sep 1847 St George Leicester also Edward Gee 25 Sep 18 Illegitimate son of Elizabeth Goodman born 1 Morton's Yard Wigston Street Leicester.
Now I am confused ;D.
Could you tell us how you have got back to this family
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Just looking at the 1863 marriage between Emily Goodman and Joseph Allen. The address for Emily ties in with the 1861 we have for Joseph Smith, Elizabeth Smith etc. Her age is 17, it was 14 on the census. So that looks right.
I suspect that an (Edward?) Gee could be the father of the two illegitimate children of Elizabeth Goodman / Smith
Added
Presumably it is Elizabeth Goodman living in Mortons Yard in 1841 with mother Mary & siblings
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Hi Aquitaine
The Leicester FHS has a website which I would recommend looking at and it's where I purchased the Welford Road Burial disc many moons ago; this is where I found the burial info for the Hawkins children.
Following the census returns purely for Elizabeth, I added the additional Hawkins info as they are 'family' according to the census, despite their birthdates!!!
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Emma Astley can be found in Barwell in 1871 age 4 months with parents Thomas and Harriet
ASTLEY, EMMA mmn LUCAS
GRO Reference: 1870 Dec Quarter in HINCKLEY Volume 07A Page 55
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Joseph Hawkins is with his father Charles and mother Amelia in 1881.
HAWKINS, JOSEPH mmn SPENCE
GRO Reference: 1866 D Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 187
Marriage Dec qtr 1864
Hawkins Charles
Spence Amelia
Leicester 7a 464
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Thank you both there is alot of information to digest so will have a look. Thanks...
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If Joseph Hawkins was a son in law why was Emma not listed as Elizabeth's daughter. I think the description of SiL is wrong.
Where were Elizabeth's children in 1891 /1901 :-\
1861
children
Helena Smith 2.
Edward Goodman 12
Emily Goodman 14
Added Edward died in 1888.
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Emily (Allen) aka Emma on 1881/1891 census Hunslet, The daughter also switches from Emma to Emily ::)
Joseph appears to have a new wife Elizabeth bn Leeds in 1901
So no sign of Elizabeth in 1901 with Emily or Edward
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Yes Rosie you are correct with the Allen family in Hunslet and the frustrating changes of names!
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Have been looking at Elizabeth's son Edward and I think he may have died Aug 1888...
I searched for Edward jnr. 1891 as I couldn't find the Goodmans as a family and came across this family...
Thomas and Mary Gibbons with Goodsmans and Gibbons surnames for their children.
Green Street, Leicester
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tvd/
Edward Goodsman 1880
Elizabeth Goodsman 1884 daughter in law
David Gibbons 1885 son
William Goodsman 1888 son in law
Annie May Gibbons 1891 daughter
GOODMAN, ELIZABETH HARDY
GRO Reference: 1883 S Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 220
GOODMAN, WILLIAM HARDY
GRO Reference: 1887 D Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 203
GIBBONS, ANNIE MAY HARDY
GRO Reference: 1890 S Quarter in LEICESTER Volume 07A Page 194
Thomas Gibbons married Mary Ann Goodman Q2 1890 Leicester
Poss reg. Office, can't find the marriage online
On the census page link for 1891, click on Edward Goodman in the top right hand corner and choose person, you will find 1901 onwards for him there in the source tab
Poss burial at Welford Road
GOODMAN Edward 1888 Aug11 39 Mansfield Street
The other burials close to his death have the surname Croxtall/Croxall
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Thank you for your searches and information I am now on a better track with this family. The bits in the middle were wrong for me, how easy to get sidetracked.
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I'm a bit confused (so many surnames!) but on the offchance that the 1915 burial is the correct Elizabeth, of Kensington Street, she is in the same grave (at Welford Road) as two Smith children and two other children:
Plot c E 1218
HARRISON HERBERT TIMSON 1868 MAR 28 15MTHS MILLSTONE LANE SAINT MARY
BURDETT JEMIMA 1885 MAR 24 45 SYSTON STREET SAINT MARGARET
SMITH WILLIAM EDWARD 1892 MAR 30 6 ORCHARD STREET SAINT MARGARET
SMITH ADA JEMIMA 1898 MAR 12 3 KENSINGTON STREET LEICESTER 41092
SMITH ELIZABETH 1915 SEP 9 89 80 KENSINGTON STREET LEICESTER 55527
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Hi Annie 65115
Thank you for looking but I dont think its her. We have her up to 1891in Leicester.
If you have change, if you dont mind would you look for Edward Goodman died 1888 that is one if you cant dont worry. Its all taking shape after 4 or so years! Thank you for your time.
A.
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Edward Goodman
Age 39
Burial date 11 Aug 1888
Description Welford Road Cemetery
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Joseph Smith
Age 56
Burial date ? May 1876
Welford Road Cemetery
OR
Joseph Smith
Age 49
Burial date ? Oct 1869
Welford Road Cemetery
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Hi Annie 65115
Thank you for looking but I dont think its her. We have her up to 1891in Leicester.
A.
Sorry, I'm not sure I follow you -- the date of burial that I gave you was 1915, for an Elizabeth in Kensington St, which you had mentioned as possibly your earlier in the thread.
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Edward Goodman shares a grave with membersof the Croxall family.
Plot cN 2515, Welford Rd:
CROXALL WILLIAM 1874 APR 29 73 CRAVEN STREET SAINT MARGARET
GOODMAN EDWARD 1888 AUG 11 39 MANSFIELD STREET SAINT MARGARET
CROXALL HANNAH JANE 1888 DEC 19 18MTHS BELGRAVE GATE SAINT MARGARET
CROXTALL GERTRUDE ELIZABETH 1891 JAN 15 1 BELGRAVE GATE SAINT MARGARET
CROXALL FREDERICK 1891 JAN 26 1 BELGRAVE GATE SAINT MARGARET
HARRIS FREDERICK THOMAS CROXALL 1899 MAR 8 4MTHS CRANBOURNE STREET LEICESTER
BAXTER GRACE ELIZABETH 1950 FEB 27 69 38 ST. JAMES ROAD LEICESTER
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1901 Kensington Street
Edward Smith 36 occ House painter
Frances E Smith Dtr 8
Elizabeth Smith Mother 75 Widow
Joseph Smith Brother 51 Widower
Clara Smith Niece 19
all born Leicestershire
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The same Elizabeth with son Joseph in 1861 Leicester
John Smith 38 bn Earl Shilton, Leicestershire
Elizabeth Smith 36 bn Leicester
Joseph Smith 11 bn Leicester
Ann Smith 3 bn Leicester
William Smith Visitor 20 bn Rothwell, Northamptonshire
Her death entry in the paper in 1915 mentions that her husband was John (not Joseph)
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Here they are in 1871 with their son Edward SMITH
John Smith. 46 Chimney sweep Earl Shilton, Leicestershire
Elizabeth Smith 46
Enoch Smith 16
Ann Smith 13
Edward Smith 6
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Good Evening
Amazed at the response and for all your hard efforts. I tell you this family is driving me mad! I am going to look at the latest additions just to say here is copy about the marriage it was a Joseph Smith indeed that married Elizabeth Goodman
Marriage
17 Nov 1858 • Register Office Leicester
GRO Leicester Joseph Smith 30 yrs bachelor Shoemaker 20 Baker Street Belgravegate Leicester his father Joseph Smith Shoemaker married Ann Elizabeth Goodman Spinster 23 yrs 19 Baker Street Belgravegate Leicester her father John Goodman (dec) bricklayer
Does this complicate things even more?
A.
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Things don't add up here.
Ann Elizabeth Goodman married Joseph Smith in 1858; Joseph was a shoemaker. Ann was 23, Joseph 30.
1861 census: Elizabeth (age 36) and John (46) Smith (a chimneysweep) have children including an 11 year old son.
These have to be two different families.
which one is yours, Aquitaine?
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So I've had a harder look. Aquitaine, why do you think that the Elizabeth Smith who died in Kensington St in 1915, and who (according to the paper) was the widow of John Smith, had the maiden name Goodman?
Tracing back, this is what I see:
1911- Elizabeth S at Kensington St with son Edward who is 46.
1901 - Same address, sons Edward age 36 and Joseph age 51.
1891 - Orchard St, son Joseph age 41.
1881 - Orchard St - son Edward age 16, husband John (chimney sweep).
1871 - Orchard St - son Enocks Enoch age 16, Edward age 6; daughter Ann age 13; husband John age 46.
11 July 1847; John SMITH m Elizabeth MATTOCKat St Margaret. Both of full age; John a chimney sweep. NO father given for John; Elizabeth's father was Joseph Mattock, a carpenter. Witnesses John and Elizabeth Baines.
Children with surname Smith and mmn Mattock (or v similar):
Joseph (1849) (Maddock)
Enoch (1854) (Maddocks)
Edward (1864) (Mattick)
and possibly Ann (1857) (Mattil)
In 1861, 6 year old Enock Smith is with his grandmother Alice Mattock.
I'd suggest that EITHER your Elizabeth died in Kensington St, had the maiden name Mattock, and is nothing to do with any Goodmans
OR your Elizabeth was a different person altogether (and didn't die in Kensington St!)
I think it depends really on the evidence you're using for which is your Elizabeth. But clearly there are at least 2 different Smith families muddled throughout this thread.
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I was under the impression that the correct family was Joseph and Elizabeth and that we had discounted the1915 death as the husband was John.
Which of Elizabeth Smiths children are you descended from and does their marriage certificate confirm that their father is Joseph Smith occ Cordwainer / Shoe maker
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Greetings! todays puzzle is...
Well, the marriage of Joseph Allen St Margaret's with Emily Goodman (various names Emma as well) I went back to the marriage and she put Edward Goodman father - a paper hanger. I looked for births and found the Emily Gee Goodman (illegitimate from GRO birth) mother Elizabeth Goodman spinster. I assumed that at marriage she put her brothers name "Edward" Gee Goodman who was also illegitimate Wigston Rd area Morton's Yard. Found the two children with Elizabeth Smith (nee Goodman). The Allen family I have back in Leicester fine - Joseph Allen move to Hunslet...
A.
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Where do you have Elizabeth and the children 1851?
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Is Emily Goodman who married Joseph Allen your direct line
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Greetings! todays puzzle is...
Well, the marriage of Joseph Allen St Margaret's with Emily Goodman (various names Emma as well) I went back to the marriage and she put Edward Goodman father - a paper hanger. I looked for births and found the Emily Gee Goodman (illegitimate from GRO birth) mother Elizabeth Goodman spinster. I assumed that at marriage she put her brothers name "Edward" Gee Goodman who was also illegitimate Wigston Rd area Morton's Yard. Found the two children with Elizabeth Smith (nee Goodman). The Allen family I have back in Leicester fine - Joseph Allen move to Hunslet...
A.
The address for Emily Goodman when she married Joseph in 1863 was Abbey Street. Prior to that marriage the 1861 census has her living at 47 Abbey Street with Joseph & Elizabeth Smith
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Hi all,
I have 1841 Wigston Street Leicester Elizabeth Goodman living with Mary Goodman 40 yrs Hannah Goodman 20 yrs Elizabeth 15 yrs Eliza 10 yrs Prudence 3 yrs James 2 yrs Mary Ann 5 yrs.
Willsy : I DONT have 1851 ?? Yes 1861/187/1881/1891 Leicester
Roseie99: Yes Joseph Allen and Emma (Emily) Goodman is the line. End up in Hunslet Yorkshire
Just as a further note I dont know who the Croxall family is in earlier post and Elizabeth Goodman decided to add Ann to her name of Ann Elizabeth Goodman t marriage.
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I have 1841 Wigston Street Leicester Elizabeth Goodman living with Mary Goodman 40 yrs Hannah Goodman 20 yrs Elizabeth 15 yrs Eliza 10 yrs Prudence 3 yrs James 2 yrs Mary Ann 5 yrs.
Willsy : I DONT have 1851 ?? Yes 1861/187/1881/1891 Leicester
[/quote]
just listing addresses ;D
1841 - Wigston Street
1861 - Abbey Street
1871 - St John Street
1881 - St John Street
1891 - St John Street
What addresses do you have on the births for the * Gee Goodman children
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Hi all
Birth GRO digital edition 31 December 1846 Emily Mary Gee mother Elizabeth Goodman of 1 Morton's Yard. I have St George Leicester have baptism at 1 Sep 1847 Emily Mary illegitimate daughter of (mark of X)Elizabeth Goodman (address Wigston Street)
Birth GRO digital edition 25 September 1848 Mortons Yard, Wigston Street, Edward Gee son of Elizabeth Goodman her X 1 Morton's Yard, Wigston Street Leicester
A.
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Thank you :)
I can't see any of them in Wigston Street in 1851 so they have obviously moved on from there
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I don't think it's much help, but I think Prudence Goodman married Frederick Freer in Basford (Notts) in 1857. I still can't find her, or the rest of the family, in 1851, but Prudence Freer was back in Leicester in subsequent censuses.
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I found much the same, John, Elizabeth's father is a labourer on baptisms and dies at the same address as 1841, Prudence does however have her father John as a bricklayer!
Aquitaine
Who were the witnesses on the marriage certificate 1858?
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Have found in the paper that youngest son James dies 1856, address matches Elizabeth's address 1858
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For the sake of completeness, here are the occupants of James Goodman's grave. I can't see that it helps, at least at the moment -but sometimes clues become clear as more are uncovered ---
Welford Rd, plot uO334
GOODMAN JAMES 1856 APR 28 19 BAKER STREET BELGRAVE GATE
COLVER JOHN THOMAS 1858 OCT 14 1YR 10MTHS NELSON SQUARE
WOOLMAN ELIZABETH 1879 MAY 9 2 WILLOW BRIDGE STREET
BRAMLEY GEORGE 1902 JAN 31 85 THE WORKHOUSE LEICESTER
PRESTON ELIZA 1925 OCT 17 70 51 AVON STREET LEICESTER
PRESTON BENJAMIN 1937 JAN 21 79 76 HERRICK ROAD LOUGHBOROUGH
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Gro has John Thomas Colver MMN Goodman
St. Margaret's, Leicester
Mary Ann Goodman Married William Colver 26th Dec. 1853 Baker Street, father John Goodman bricklayer
***ADDED
Hannah Goodman marries John Ireland Q2 1846
Mary Ann Goodman sister in law, is with them 1851 Braunston Gate
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All I have extra so far are burials for most likely Joseph and Em*s children with 1881 in mind, checked the GRO and MMN Goodman and 1871 address
B 482 C
BEVANS HARRY 1865 AUG 1 7MTHS NAVIGATION STREET SAINT MARGARET
ALLEN ELIZABETH 1865 AUG 13 8MTHS LOWER RUSSELL STREET SAINT MARGARET
ALLEN EDWARD 1868 AUG 7 3MTHS RUSSELL STREET SAINT MARGARET
ALLEN ELIZA ANN 1868 SEP 14 2YRS 6MTHS RUSSELL STREET SAINT MARGARET
HUSSEY JOHN 1908 JAN 29 74 COUNTY ASYLUM LEICESTER
Harry Bevans MMN is Allen
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Hi there
Thank you for the cemetery details, yes there are Allen families connected. Are there any layout plans for the cemetery. Joseph Allen is son of Robert and Mary Allen a frame work knitter in Leicester.
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https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/1965278/welford-road-cemetery#view-photo=258290814
Here's a layout plan of the cemetery at Welford Road.
It's a big area, and not easy to find many graves. It's very full; parts are overgrown and impassable; and many people either had no memorial stone, or it's missing/damaged.