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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Axonais on Sunday 13 July 25 11:20 BST (UK)
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According to correspondence in the State Archives in Munich, Bavaria, the widow Eugenie Caroline Theodore Rinsby died in the house of Mrs Cholmley in Lowerhill near Richmond, London, in 1806. Her own family name was Ravanel. She came from a Swiss family living in Zweibrücken in the Palatinate of the Rhine and was born in 1751. She had a sister married to a privy counsellor to the king of Bavaria, named Joseph Bouchet d’Epreville, living in Mannheim in 1810 and 1815.
Mrs. Rinsby’s will and probate can be found in the National Archives, Kew - Prerogative Court of Canterbury, dated 12 March 1810. reference PROB 11/1509/222. The will was signed in Langton in the North Riding of Yorkshire 13 January 1801. From it we learn that she had a relationship with the families of Mrs Colmley and Goulton. These ladies can be identified as Ann Jesse Cholmley née Smelt, wife of Nathaniel Cholmley (1721-1791), and Dorothea Goulton née Smelt of St John Delpike in York, wife of Thomas Goulton of the par. of St Mary’s Beverley, Yorkshire Eastriding. They were daughters of Leonard Smelt and his wife Ann Fairbridge. Leonard Smelt died in Langton Hall, Little Langton 2 September 1800. Mrs Rinsby most probably was a lady-companion to Leonard Smelt in Langton. His biography is in the Dictionary of National Biography.
The exact place and date of Mrs Rinsby’s death have not yet been found. Could somebody supply that information (with source) ?
Any further information on Mrs Rinsby and her relations with the Cholmley and Goulton families will be very welcome.
Many thanks in advance.
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What is this 1807 reference here?
https://dfg-viewer.de/show?tx_dlf%5Bdouble%5D=0&tx_dlf%5Bid%5D=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gda.bayern.de%2Fmets%2F6ae667bf-c5a1-4652-b678-98b737005f09&tx_dlf%5Bpage%5D=3&cHash=d7bd46568928a08140c014ebdf2f32ab
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Dear PatLac,
Thanks for replying to my query. The reference you found on internet is a file in the Munich State Archives concerning the succession of Eugenie Caroline Theodore Rinsby née Ravanel. It contains correspondence between the Ministry of Foreign Affaires in Munich, the Bavaria ambassador in London and Mr. Joseph Bouchet d’Epreville about this succession during the years 1814 and 1815. The data in this file have been used for composing my query.
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Thanks Axonais, but does it refer to her date of death in 1806 or 1807?
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Anything here?
... Donation considerable Legnee la Mad nne Preville, dans et par la demiere Volonte et Testament Madame Eugenie Caroline Theodore Rinsby, veuve detunte, Soeur de dite Madame Previile. Donation mentionec comprend tout le reste du bien personnel de la Testatrice ...
Published: Monday 06 March 1815
Newspaper: Sussex Advertiser
County: Sussex, England
Type: Advertisement | Words: 230 | Page: 3
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Dear Patlac,
According to the Munich file her death was in Lower Hill near Richmond in 1806 or perhaps 1807. Her will was probated only in 1810. I found the advertisement in the Sussex Advertiser of 6 March 1815, just as you did, but I don’t know its full text jet. Would be great if you could be of help to find it somewhere. Please note the date 6 March 1815. The advertisement must have been placed in direct relation with the correspondence in 1814 and 1815.
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Unfortunately I don't have a subscription :( Let's hope someone else can check it for you.
I wonder if her married name has been misspelled? Rinsby is not a common surname.
On Ancestry her name has been transcribed Eugenie Caroline Theodora which makes more sense than Theodore.
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It's published in German and French
The French one...
SI Madame De PREVILLE maintenant ou dernierement residente a Manheim en Allemagne, est veuve, ou en cas de mort, ses plus prochies parents s'adresseront a Mr. JACQUES CHAMP, de la Ville de CHICHESTER, dans le Conte de Sussex, et dans le Royaume de la Grande Bretagne, Avocat et Notaire Public, ou a Mr. JEAN CLARK, No. 35, Southampton Buildings, Chancery-Lane, a Londres, pour prendret des informations sur une Donation considerable Legace a la dire Madame de Preville, dans et par la derniere Volonte et Testament de Madame Eugenie Caroline Theodore Rinsby, veuve defunte, Soeur de la dite Madame de Preville.
La Donation mentionee a dessus comprend tout le reste du bien personnel de la Testatrice.
N. B. Le Mari de Madame de Preville etoit autrefois conseiller du dernier Duc de Deux Ponts.
JAS. CHAMP.
27th Feb. 1815.
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The German one attached ;D
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Thank you jonwarm ;D
I wonder why it took so long to contact her sister if she died in 1806-7?
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From what I understood, the sister's husband was the one making a claim around 1815. Perhaps Eugenie was left an inheritance, or share of one, shortly before that date but it wasn't known right away that she had already died.
Wondering if Eugenie could have been a governess in the Smelt household which might explain why she was apparently living with Ann Smelt Cholmley when she died.
I did find this recent mention-
https://maritamathijsen.wordpress.com/2025/03/22/naar-trevoux/
Might be worth getting in touch with her.
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From what I understood, the sister's husband was the one making a claim around 1815. Perhaps Eugenie was left an inheritance, or share of one, shortly before that date but it wasn't known right away that she had already died.
Wondering if Eugenie could have been a governess in the Smelt household which might explain why she was apparently living with Ann Smelt Cholmley when she died.
I did find this recent mention-
https://maritamathijsen.wordpress.com/2025/03/22/naar-trevoux/
Might be worth getting in touch with her.
As I read it the solicitor Mr Champ of Chichester was asking Mde de Preville, last known in Mannheim, if she was living, or if not her nearest relatives, to contact him about a legacy in Eugenie's will.
If you think this was in the middle of the Napoleonic Wars, so contact with European relatives or knowledge of their current whereabouts might have been a bit challenging
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Marie was alive, she died 19 July 1836 in Mannheim. She and her husband Joseph were known as von Preville, but his name has many variations.
Dépréville (d'Epreville, de Breville), Joseph,
Councillor (Government of Palatinate-Zweibrücken, glk
Palatinate).
https://www.bayerischer-staatsrat.de/pdf/str1_1799.pdf
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The widow Rinsby née Ravanel came from a french speaking Ravanel family that had a very good relationship with the court in Zweibrücken and with other princely or ducal courts around in the 18th century. Some female membres served as governess or educators to the reigning families. Our Mrs Rinsby was a governess as well. She served as such in the Netherlands in 1784-1787. In 1788 she came to Trévoux, now département de l’Ain, near Lyon in France. In 1790, in Trévoux, she is mentioned in the will of two well known Dutch female writers as ‘dame Caroline Victoire Ravanel veuve de M. Charles Ferdinand Rinsby decedé capitaine de vaisseau au service de la republique d’Hollande’. Her Christian names differ in the various sources: Caroline Victoire, Caroline Frédérique and Eugenie Caroline Theodore (Theodora). The only place where the name of her deceased husband is given is in this will. However a ships-captain named Rinsby can nowhere be found in Dutch archives. As PatLac observed the surname of Rinsby is special and rather unique.
I thank jonwarrn for the copies of the advertisement in the Sussex Advertiser. Much appreciated! The names of Jacques Champ and Jean Clark can be found in the probate record of Mrs Rinsby’s will as well.
For good order’s sake I mention that Leonard Smelt, the father of Mrs. Cholmley and Mrs. Goulton, became Deputy Ranger of Richmond Park in about 1781. That may explain why Mrs. Rinsby died in Lowerhill near Richmond. He was an intimate to king George III and queen Charlotte. See; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Smelt_(British_Army_officer)
I do not now the English law on burials in the beginning of the 19th century, but I can imagine that for a burial a permission from the local authorities was obligatory. Was that perhaps the case for Richmond and were these permissions registered ?
I do agree that Mrs. Rinsby most probably was in the household of Leonard Smelt as a governess of lady-companion.
Many thanks to PatLac for the German book on the Bayerische Staatsrat. Very informative.
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Thank you for the additional information, Axonais!
I'm not in the UK so maybe I'm wrong but I understand that the death of a foreign person in England didn't have to be registered and maybe the Smelt Cholmley family had their own mausoleum on their estate?
By the way, have you managed to find where exactly was "Lowerhill, near Richmond"?
Ann Jessie Cholmley's address on 17 November 1805 was in Marylebone.
(f) Mrs. Ann Jessie Cholmley, 61 Wimpole Street, to Mrs. Mary Courtney, Beverley: family news. 17 November 1805
https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/b92d89ad-0f74-30d8-a811-e066a3c5b95a?component=2280c538-f712-33ff-a5cd-b27bb196c333
You said the Ravanel family was from Switzerland. Do you think this could be Eugenie's sister?
"For example, at the Hesse-Darmstadt court alone, there was a succession of such Swiss governesses. Marianne (or Marguerite) Ravanel, born in Morges, was governess to Princess Caroline of Hesse-Darmstadt’s daughter Amalie (1754-1832)"
https://books.openedition.org/pus/36456?lang=en
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2. 1758–1805: Pharmaceuticals and Money Lending: The Pillars of the Merck Business during the Age of Enlightenment
S. 60-82
„... the court Margarethe Katharina Ravanel engaged her as a French tutor for the princesses of ...” „... Plätzer, Mademoiselle Ravanelle, Schleiermacher, Hesse’s daughter, G. R. Klippstein, Dr. Allemer, Privy ...”
https://www.beck-elibrary.de/en/10.17104/9783406700408/merck?q=ravanel&page=1
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You said the Ravanel family was from Switzerland. Do you think this could be Eugenie's sister?
"For example, at the Hesse-Darmstadt court alone, there was a succession of such Swiss governesses. Marianne (or Marguerite) Ravanel, born in Morges, was governess to Princess Caroline of Hesse-Darmstadt’s daughter Amalie (1754-1832)"
https://books.openedition.org/pus/36456?lang=en
Her aunt!
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I suppose you have her parents' marriage record?
https://orka.bibliothek.uni-kassel.de/viewer/fullscreen/1430384797155_004/14/
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There might be a faint hope that the date of death could be written along with the probate details on or with the original will (apparently it was written in French, it should be at TNA)
I wouldn't be confident, but you do see it in some courts at that time, i.e. here on this Lancashire will proved in 1810 in the Chester Consistory Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4MS-2P
I don't think it would be given in a Probate Act Book entry in 1810, like we have them from 1858 in the annual national probate calendars.
Depending on the value of her estate, the death duty register entry might be useful :-\
Available on microfilm at TNA or at a LDS FamilySearch Centre
Madame Rinsby doesn't seem to be in the Richmond burial register. They do have a few more exotic names than is the norm in them, a Count Alexander du Pont was buried there in 1805.
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Cholmley's Estate, between Portsmouth Road and river Thames, Long Ditton.
https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHCOL_2249_1_1_1_1
Copy of affidavit by David Dundas of Richmond, surgeon, and Catherine Sayer, servant to Anne Jesse Cholmley of Richmond, to the effect that they witnessed Anne Jesse Cholmley signed her consent to a bill (missing) annexed and that she was unable to appear through illness.
https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHCOL_504_12_1_1_1
One place to look for her burial record could be Thames Ditton St. Nicholas
https://www.surreygraveyards.org.uk/elmbridge/thamesdittstl.shtml
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I wonder if this was Eugenie?
The twelve items in the Beaupoil de St. Aulaire letters concern the social activities and family news of a female French émigré living in England at the turn of the nineteenth century. The letters are primarily personal in nature, but also discuss French politics, language, and culture, particularly in reference to Napoleon Bonaparte and the French Revolution. The letters, many of which do not address the recipient by name, all appear to be written to the same person, possibly a Miss Phipps, who is living with Mrs. Cholmley "under the hill" at Richmond, Surrey.
Dates
Creation: 1803-08 - 1803-10
https://archivesspace.williams.edu/repositories/4/resources/466
Anne Elizabeth Cholmley Phipps was born on 19 May 1788, the daughter of John Constantine Phipps, Baron Mulgrave (1744-92; ODNB), naval officer, arctic explorer, and politician, and Anne Elizabeth Phipps, née Cholmley (1769-88). Her mother died in childbirth leaving her as her father’s sole heir. After her father’s death in 1792, Anne Elizabeth Phipps grew up under the guardianship of her widowed grandmother, Anne Jesse Cholmley (1748-c.1812). Her guardian’s consent was needed and obtained when, still a minor, Anne Elizabeth Phipps married Sir John Murray, eighth baronet (1768?-1827; ODNB) in 1807.
https://btw.wlv.ac.uk/authors/1103
The place was literally UNDER THE HILL, wrongly translated Lowerhill.
BURIAL: Parish: Richmond, St Mary Magdalene; John Jepson; 62 years; Burial Date: 8 Jun 1838. Archive Reference No: P7/1/12; Text: St. Mary Madgdalene: Burials in the Parish of Richmond in the County of Surrey in the Year 1838; Entry No. 927 Text: John Jepson F 36 N Abode: Under the Hill; When Buried: June 8th; Age 47; Off Min: G. Coulcher. Surrey, England, Burials, 1813-1987; Ancestry.com; Publisher: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc; Publisher Date: 2013; Publisher Location: Provo, UT, USA; Original data: Anglican Parish Registers. Woking, Surrey, England: Surrey History Centre.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Jepson-25
Another resident of "Under the Hill"
https://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/reading/UK/record_details.php?id=17692
And here:
https://leicester.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/366272/rec/2
Lady Caroline Murray lived at Under the Hill, Richmond in 1855.
https://leicester.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/366271/rec/2
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/270047091/caroline-murray#view-photo=294585467
So maybe this is the place to enquiire for her burial place?
https://www.surreygraveyards.org.uk/richmond/richmondstmm.shtml
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A house being sold at Under the Hill, Richmond, on the Morning Chronicle 14 July 1806. There is another advertisement but this one is free ;D
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You could try to find this book.
"List of Graves in Vineyard Passage Burial Ground’ (Judith Filson 1985: Richmond Local Studies Collection)"
https://richmond.gov.uk/media/21455/vineyard_passage_burial_ground.pdf
Coincidentally, the Reverend died the same year (1806).
In the Vestry Minutes for 20 October 1806, mention was made of the natural springs
that were common on the Hill:
“Resolved that the Reverend Mr Wakefield and the Church Wardens be requested to
examine and report to the Vestry their opinion of the necessity of the new burial
ground being drained from the great flow of land springs therein”
Nothing appears to have happened about this, probably due to the death of the
Reverend Wakefield in that same year.
Good luck with your research and let me know if you find her!
Cheers.
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Despite your lack of feedback I am insisting on posting because I keep finding interesting things that might be pertinent to your question.
Abraham Trembley et autres précepteurs suisses en Hollande. Correspondances (1733-1801)
Page 454
Ravanel, Mlle : 390, 392
https://classiques-garnier.com/export/pdf/abraham-trembley-et-autres-precepteurs-suisses-en-hollande-correspondances-1733-1801-index.html?displaymode=full
https://classiques-garnier.com/abraham-trembley-et-autres-precepteurs-suisses-en-hollande-correspondances-1733-1801-preface.html?displaymode=full
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Dear PatLac,
Excuse me for coming back so retardingly. I was very busy these days. Yes I do appreciate your postings very much. I know Kees van Strien’s book already. His findings in Dutch archives are important.
I have to look at your other postings as yet. Miss Phipps was a daughter of Nathaniel Cholmley and Henrietta Catherine Croft. Nathaniel Cholmley married again to Anne Jesse Smelt, daughter of Leonard Smelt, mentioned in my query and mentioned by you. She is the Mrs Cholmley mentioned by Eugenie Rinsby in her will. Eugenie must have followed Mrs Cholmley to Richmond after Leonard Smelt’s death.
The Local Studies Library in Richmond (https://www.richmond.gov.uk/local_studies_collection) seems to have a film of Richmond burials in the beginning of the 19th century. I hope they can search them on my behalf.
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I see, sorry if I sounded pushy. From your original post it wasn't clear to me that you already had this information.
Just to finish my humble contribution (I can only research online given that I'm in Brazil), I would like to reaffirm that I think the translation of Eugenie's will had the address wrongly translated.
This advertisement from the same period states the address as "Richmond, under the Hill, near the bridge", which I think was the intented address instead of "Lowerhill near Richmond", otherwise Mrs. Cholmley would have had to be leaving outside Richmond in a nearby place, which wasn't the case. The Lower road under the Hill (Richmond Hill) near the bridge (Richmond Bridge) lead to Petersham Road.
The ad file is too big to be attached, so here's the transcript
Morning Advertiser London 3 Aug 1810
Page 4
Richmond under the Hill, near the Bridge - By Mr. WHITE, on the Premisses, by Order of the Executors, on Monday, August 6, at One, in Five Lots, A Valuable LEASEHOLD ESTATE, most derirably and delightfully situate on the bank of the Thames, in the lower road under the Hill, near Richmond Bridge; consisting of four Dwelling Houses, with gardens, coach house and stables, &c. late property of Mr. Benjamin Fox, deceased ; held for an unexpired term of 55 years....
Another evidence that this might be the right name of her address is that Mrs. Charlotte Ann Broome former Francis (nee Burney), sister of Leonard Smelt's friend novelist Frances "Fanny" Burney, lived at the same area in 1818, as the envelope addressed to her can confirm.
*Location:Literary and Historical Manuscripts--Bound
*Call Number: Southey 1
Record ID:137520
Accession Number:MA 63.6
Author/Creator:Southey, Robert, 1774-1843.
Biographical Data:English poet and man of letters.
Title:Autograph letter signed : Keswick, to Mrs. Broome, 1818 Jan. 28.
Date of Writing: 1818 Jan. 28.
Related Records
FULL TITLE AUTHOR/CREATOR DATES
Collection of letters and documents of Robert Southey, 1795-1837. Southey, Robert, 1774-1843. 1795-1837
Description:1 item (1 p., with address) ; 22.6 cm
Summary:Promising to send her verses on the death of her son Ralph.
Credit:Purchased by Pierpont Morgan, 1905.
Notes:Address panel with seal and postmarks, and addressed "For / Mrs. Broome / Under the Hill / Richmond / Surry."
Formerly bound with a collection of letters and papers of Rear Admiral James Burney (MA 38).
Part of a collection of letters and manuscripts of Robert Southey. Items have been cataloged individually; see collection-level record for more information.
Provenance:Listed in Bernard Quaritch catalog no. 234 (1904), no. 42; purchased by Pierpont Morgan from Quaritch in 1905.
Associated Names:Broome, Charlotte Ann, recipient.
Formatted Place:England--Cumberland--Keswick.
https://corsair.themorgan.org/vwebv/holdingsInfo?bibId=137520
I hope someone local will help you further. Cheers!
PS (sorry!) I wonder if Eugenie met Leonard Smelt through Frances Burney who could have know Wolff and Deken via literary figures and French exiles?
"When the French Revolution began in 1789, Burney was among many literary figures in England who sympathized with its early ideals of equality and social justice.[6] During this period Burney became acquainted with some French exiles known as "Constitutionalists", who had fled to England in August 1791 and were living at Juniper Hall, near Mickleham, Surrey, where Burney's sister Susanna lived. She quickly became close to General Alexandre d'Arblay (1754-1818), an artillery officer who had been adjutant-general to Lafayette. D'Arblay taught her French and introduced her to the writer Germaine de Staël."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frances_Burney
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Maybe Abel Jan Koenders Storm van 's Gravesande and Henrdrik Bock were related to her husband "Charles Ferdinand Rinsby"?
Abel Jan Koenders Storm van 's Gravesande
Abel Jan Koenders Storm van 's Gravesande
Sex Unknown
Occupation schepen van Breda, ontvanger Teteringen
Event Type Property
Event Date 17 Sep 1791
Event Place Breda, Noord-Brabant, Nederland
Source Details Archiefnaam: Notariële archieven Breda, Bron: akten, Deel: 1194, Periode: 1791, archive , inventory number 1194, record number 165
Affiliate Publication Title Archiefnaam: Notariële archieven Breda, Bron: akten, Deel: 1194, Periode: 1791
Affiliate Name Stadsarchief Breda
Registration on October 11, 1786
Registered
Carolina Victoire Ravanel, nicht van Marianne
N.N. Bouchet de Preville, geheime raad by profession
Marianne Fisees, geboren Ravanel
Abel Jan Koenders Storm van 's-Gravesande, schepen by profession
Hendrik Bock, schepen by profession
Extra information
Soort akte Procuratie
https://www.openarchieven.nl/rhe:BED0D8E2-F3AD-4C46-A33A-6E12BC482A8F/en
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Thank you. This deed is already known. It was made in Heeze near Eindhoven in the Netherlands. Storm van 's Gravesande was "schepen" (= alderman) of the court in Heeze before which this deed was registered. He was not related to Caroline Victoire Ravanel. She is known by the Christian names Caroline Victoire (Ravanel), Caroline Frédérique (Ravanel) and Eugenie Caroline Theodore(a) Rinsby née Ravanel.
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Thanks! What about Hendrik Bock?
And have you managed to read the name of the witness at her aunt's marriage to Johann Caspar Fizer?
According to Merck's book partially available on Google Books, Frau Hofmann (Marie Antoinette nee Ravanel) had three nieces: one niece, C. Reynier (or Reigner), in Lausanne. She was the daughter of Marie's sister Mme Chapuis (Sara Louise nee Ravanel). Caroline Christiane Henriette Chapuis married Jacques François Reynier, who died in 1773, (death mentioned in the book as 'had already died in 1774').
The second niece was a governess in Homburg "Mlle Rabennel". She could be Eugenie, but...
The third niece who was single and living in Holland is more likely to be Eugenie. But Eugenie or Caroline Victoire Ravanel was still called Ravanel and not Mme Rinsby in 1786 when her aunt died (the 11 Oct 1786 deed) and she left Beverwijk and went to Trévoux with Wolff and Deken in March 1788, she would have had to marry and become a widow during this short period of time. One other option is that she had married and become a widow whilst living in Trévoux, which is even less likely. The last option is that she had invented her marriage and husband.
https://books.google.nl/books?id=aKo-0yKvAgcC&pg=RA3-PA315&dq=merck+ravanel&hl=nl&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi_m-eBqdCNAxXjhv0HHUVIH_kQ6AF6BAgFEAM#v=onepage&q=Reignes&f=false
A Google (terrible) translation:
...d'Epreville marries. She was godmother to Adelheid Merck; see Letter 864, note 1. - Caroline, the eldest princess of Darmstadt, married to Friedrich von Hessen-Homburg since 1768, also wished, in 1777, to have Ravanel as governess for her children; see Jacobi, Goethe's Lila, p. 61. The Darmstadt Frag- und Ananzeigersblättgen No. 33, of August 17, 1778, also names Mademoiselle Rabenell, governess of Homburg, among the travelers who arrived. - Another niece, C. Reynier, in Lausanne, entrusted Merck with the administration of the estate of her aunt Fises on September 23, 1786, who had inherited an affair from her aunt Katharina ("the" Ravanel). cf. Letter 852. - Another
unmarried niece lived in Holland; cf. von d'Epreville, November 18, 1786.
Could they be confusing Caroline Victoire Ravanel (Eugenie) with Caroline Christiane Henriette Chapuis (C. Reynier)?
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I know this isn't a likely place of burial for Eugenie, but I think it's a remarkable coincidence. And I think the handwriting could very well be "Rinsby".
Mrs. Rinsly
Burial
Place: St. Peter-The-Great Church, Chichester, Sussex, England (Chichester Cathedral)
Date: 29 Nov 1806
Another remarkable coincidence (or not?) is that the burial of Charles Lennox, 3rd Duke of Richmond, who died one month later and was buried on 5 Jan 1807, is in the same page. His father and Leonard Smelt were both amongst the British Army personnel of the Jacobite rising of 1745.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6X1Q-THC?view=index&personArk=%2Fark%3A%2F61903%2F1%3A1%3AJ83N-MPB&cc=1473016&lang=en&groupId=
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I know this isn't a likely place of burial for Eugenie, but I think it's a remarkable coincidence. And I think the handwriting could very well be "Rinsby".
Mrs. Rinsly
Burial
Place: St. Peter-The-Great Church, Chichester, Sussex, England (Chichester Cathedral)
Date: 29 Nov 1806
That's a really great find, Pat.
I agree that it could well say Rinsby.
The bishops transcript, which has less info, for comparison, here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4WC-2J
Chichester as a possible place of death or burial perhaps not so unlikely, because of the solicitior, James Champ?
Paradise was the burial ground in the cloisters at Chichester Cathedral. Now all open space I think.
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The proxy in Heeze dated 11 Oct. 1786 was passed in the office of the manor of Heeze, where were present Storm van ’s Gravesande and H. Bock, both “schepen” (alderman). H. Janssen was the clerk.
The marriage registration of the Fizer-Ravanel couple gives two witnesses: Marie Antoinete Hofmann widow (“Witib”) née Ravanel and the captain Francois De Kaipf.
The letter (“Brief”) nr. 864 mentioned in the book by Ulrike Leutschner seems to have been written on 18 Nov. 1786 (p. 64). I do agree that the “weitere Nichte” [an other niece] who lived at that time in Holland must have been Caroline Victoire Ravanel.
As no sea-captain of the name Rinsby can be found in Dutch archives or printed literature and this name seems to be very rare indeed and her widowship suddenly falls out of the cloud in 1790 it may very well be that Caroline invented her state of being a widower. I doubt Caroline’s widowship for a long time myself.
Your find of the burial of Mrs. Rinsly in the church in Chichester is really important and a great success. Her name could indeed be read as Rinsby. According to her approved will it was James Champ of the city of Chichester notary public who translated it from the original French to English and the Reverend George Marwood was constituted as executor.
This George Marwood probably was the Rev. George Marwood who was a canon of Chichester Cathedral. See https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Metcalfe-760. His mother was Anne Smelt. I haven’t yet figured out her relationship with Leonard Smelt.
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Anne was Leonard Smelt's sister.
https://www.thepeerage.com/p66976.htm#i669754
As for the origins of Canon George Marwood (originally Metcalfe) he has discussed his own genealogy.
https://archive-cat.magd.ox.ac.uk/records/MCA/PR/30/1/C4/11/11-Fols.-2-5
His father's grandmother was Anne Marwood, daughter of Sir George "1st Baronet Marwood of Little Buskby" Marwood, M. P. She married William Metcalfe. Their son Rev. Thomas Metcalfe is Georges's father, mother Anne Greene.
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Another interesting information regarding Leonard Smelt.
Lord Holderness (Robert D'Arcy) was Leonard Smelt's neighbour and responsible for introducing him to King George III.
“The principles of a subaltern were believed
to be pliant. Lord Holderness himself owed
his preferment to his insignificance and to his wife,
a lady of the bedchamber to the Queen, as she did
hers to her daughter’s governess, whom the Queen
had seduced from her to the great vexation of Lady
Holderness. The governess, a French Protestant,182
ingratiated her late mistress with the Queen, and
her mistress soon became a favourite next to the
German women.”
“182 Mademoiselle Crom of Geneva.”
Excerpt From
Memoirs of the Reign of King George the Third, Volume 4 (of 4)
Horace Walpole
I wonder why Eugenie went to England and lived with the Smelts and I'm beginning to think there is a Royal connection through Swiss governesses.
I had this crazy idea that she changed her birth name, Caroline Frederique Ravanel, to Caroline Victoire Ravanel after her husband's death (maybe during the 4th Anglo-Dutch war), if he really existed, or after she became involved with the patriots (including Wolff and Deken, but maybe others).
And maybe she reverted to her maiden name after her husband's death because Ravanel was a name attached to her famous aunts, like the influential lady of the Hesse-Darmstadt court Margarethe Katharina Ravanel, and that could open doors amongst potential employers.
Now, why Eugenie and Theodora(e)? If she was acquainted with Marie Antoinette's chamber ladies and if (big if) she was the Mrs. Rinsby mentioned by the Marquis de Bombelles, she could have attached those names as an aristocratic touch.
Another avenue of investigation is her brother-in-law responsible for her legal affairs, Joseph Bouchet D'Epréville (or de Préville), married to her sister Marianne.
He was a "secret minister counselor of the Duke of Zweibrücken" (correct me here Axonais!). Was Eugenie involved with the patriots? Was Joseph involved in suspicious political activity?
.. ihn ferner davor, in dem städtischen Komitee mit einem politisch zweifelhaften Mann namens Préville ...” „... Zweibrücken zurückgeblieben. 2. Er habe im Hause eines suspekten d’Epreville (de Préville) verkehrt. Dieser ...” „... ausführlich eingeht, während er die Vorwürfe Nr. 2 und 3 kurz abtut. Mit de Préville sei er seit seiner ersten ...”
https://www.beck-elibrary.de/en/10.17104/9783406704826/montgelas-bd-1-1759-1799-zwischen-revolution-und-reform?q=preville&page=1
I found a previous marriage in Brussels when he was just 23 to a somewhat famous (for her bad acting) commedian actress, Marie Anne Nonancourt, who used to act under her many husbands' surnames, including Mme du Bouchet.
"Le 14 octobre 1763, elle passe en effet un contrat de mariage par-devant notaire avec le chevalier Joseph Du Bouchet de Préville, âgé de vingt-trois ans65.
65 AEB, Notariat général de Brabant 7572 (notaire Lindekens)."
https://journals.openedition.org/etudes18/2066?lang=en#ftn65
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Baptiste_Le_Sueur_Fontaine
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Axonais,
You haven't said if you have access to this chapter that mentions Mlle Ravanel in Holland.
https://classiques-garnier.com/abraham-trembley-et-autres-precepteurs-suisses-en-hollande-correspondances-1733-1801-gouvernantes.html
I have tried to buy it but the website is refusing my card. :P I'll try again on Monday.
I see that Marita Mathijsen has mentioned it in her book, so I reckon it doesn't have any new information?
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Yes I know the relevent pages of this book already. The only important information we learn from them is that Caroline Ravanel was in the Netherlands in 1784 already and that she was known to a nobleman living in the East of the country. He was in search of a governess for his children. So it is pretty sure that she was a governess as well.
The book may be interesting for the Swiss governess phenomenon in a more general way, but not for Ravanel as such.
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Thank you! No mention of this nobleman's name?
And what about this page of the book JOHANN HEINRICH MERCK Briefwechsel Vol 1?
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I have not found this page in the said book on internet. Unfortunately not all pages are available. The information is quite interesting. On 20 July 25 19:14 BST (UK) PatLac posted this site: https://www.openarchieven.nl/rhe:BED0D8E2-F3AD-4C46-A33A-6E12BC482A8F/en. It is about this deed: https://www.rhc-eindhoven.nl/collectie?mizig=46&miadt=48&miaet=54&micode=NTI-10210-1683&minr=3581134&miview=ldt. It is a procuration dated 11 Oct. 1786 in which Carolina Victoire Ravanel empowers Mr Bouchet de Preville, privy councillor to His Serene Highness the Prince of Zweibrücken, living in Zweibrücken, to represent her as joint heiress of her paternal aunt Mrs Marianne Fisees née Ravanel, who died recently in Darmstadt. As far as I can see the procuration mentioned on p. 341 and the one of 11 Oct. 1786 are the same. See also my reply 20 July 25 20:21 BST (UK).
I found the following in the said book (p. 315). As I said I don’t know the full text yet, but in note 1 we read in German “the sender of the letter is a niece of the governess Ravanel; … Her husband was dead already in 1774; ...” It may well be that this niece is our Caroline Victoire Ravanel …
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I think they have confused the two nieces, but of course I can be wrong. I wish I had access to this book!
"Eine weitere Nichte, C. Reynier in Lausanne, betraute am 23. September 1786 Merck mit der Nachlaßregelung ihrer Tante Fises, die von der Tante Katharina (»der« Ravanel) ein Etui geerbt habe; vgl. Brief 85 2. - ; vgl. von d'Epreville, 18. Nov. 1786;vgl. Brief 864."
"Another niece, C. Reynier in Lausanne, entrusted Merck on 23 September 1786 with the estate of her aunt Fises, who had inherited a case from her aunt Catherine ("the" Ravanel); cf. Letter 85 2. - ; cf. von d'Epreville, 18 November 1786; cf. Letter 864"
"Madame Reynier und der Zweibrücker Kabi-nettsekretär d'Epreville betrauen ihn mit der verwickelten Testaments-vollstreckung der Schwestern Ravanel (Briefe 852, 864)"
"Madame Reynier and the Zweibrücken cabinet secretary d'Epreville entrust him with the complicated execution of the Ravanel sisters' will (Letters 852, 864)"
C. Reynier in Lausanne was Caroline Reynier nee Chapuis whose husband died in 1773. I think they are referring to her when they say 'their husband was already dead in 1774'. I have the partial image of that page but it's too big to attach here. Anyway, you can find it on Google Books.
The page I have attached in the previous post (page 341), which is not available on Google Books, is definitely referring to the 'Eine weitere unverheiratete Nichte lebte in Holland', who is mentioned by Joseph "The attached power of attorney, drawn up in Dutch, tells me that in the place she lives, no one understands French or German", so she couldn't be the one who lost her husband, because she was single. And they couldn't possible know that her husband was already dead in 1774 because they knew nothing about her.
"Eine weitere Nichte, C. Reynier in Lausanne, betraute am 23. September 1786 Merck mit der Nachlaßregelung ihrer Tante Fises, die von der Tante Katharina (»der« Ravanel) ein Etui geerbt habe; vgl. Brief 8, 2. - Eine weitere unverheiratete Nichte lebte in Holland; vgl. von d'Epreville, 18. Nov. 1786; vgl. Brief 864."
"Another niece, C. Reynier in Lausanne, entrusted Merck with the estate of her aunt Fises on September 23, 1786, who had inherited a case from her aunt Catherine ("the" Ravanel); see Letter 8, 2. Another unmarried niece lived in Holland; see von d'Epreville, November 18, 1786; see Letter 864."
'124 Reynier, C., née Ravanel, from Lausanne, niece of Margarethe Katharina Ravanel 26, 140, 864, 894 Reynier, Doctor 24 Reynier(+ 1773), name and writings index 411."
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"Any further information on Mrs Rinsby and her relations with the Cholmley and Goulton families will be very welcome"
George Meltcafe later Marwood, Canon of Chichester (where Mrs Rinsby was buried), had a brother William who was married to Mary Goulton, the sister of Dorothy Smelt's husband, Thomas Goulton.
https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/mm4ae/metcalfe02.php
https://www.seekingmyroots.com/members/files/G002665.pdf
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Axonais, hope you're still around.
Do you know who was François Antoine Ravanel?
He signed as the godfather of Sara Louise Ravanel's grandson, Jean Louis François Antoine Reynier (Regnier), in 1762 in Lausanne.
Sara Louise was Eugenie's aunt.
Register on page 128.
https://davel-vd.ch/uploads/r/null/3/c/6/3c603d77682594c17944e5789c0a35a4826c21bd8f9213bf4f571b79a280190e/CH-ACV_RN-EB-71-7.pdf
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Good to hear from you again and that you are still interested in the Ravanel complex. No, I have no information on François Antoine Ravanel, the godfather of Jean Louis François Antoine Reynier.
You certainly will know already that Sara Louise Chappius [née Ravanel] was the grandmother of the baptized child and that Antoinette Hofman [née Ravanel] was his great-aunt. I don’t know yet who was Jean Pierre Regnier. Was he his grandfather? It may be, but I am not sure, that Francois Antoine Ravanel was the father of Sara Louise Chappius [née Ravanel] and Antoinette Hofman [née Ravanel]. I jotted down without source that this father died on 9 March 1776.
He was married to a Marie Ravanel, née ??, who was the godmother of Marianne, daughter of François Guillaume Ravanel and Jeanneton (=Johanna Franziska) Roche, baptized in Zweibrücken 6 Jan. 1746.
Probably you will also know already that Jean Louis Ebénezer Reynier (1771-1814) était un général français sous Napoléon: https://hls-dhs-dss.ch/fr/articles/024197/2010-08-27/
Do you know where this Ravanel family came from? I couldn’t find the place of origin.
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Great to hear from you!
Jean Pierre Reynier was the father of of Jean François who married Caroline Chapuis (the parents of this child). He was born in 1702 in Vevey.
I wonder if the godfather François Antoine Ravanel is Sara Louise's father... maybe he would be too old in 1762? Sara was born in 1701. Would it be odd if he was her brother, considering that another brother (Eugenie's father) was also a François, although the middle name was Guillaume?
Regarding the family's origins...
I know about a Guillaume Ravanel who was a notary in Lausanne in the 1400s-1500s and his wife Binfa (or Bynfa) Trolliet (her brother, Guillaume Trolliet, was also a notary in Lausanne).
They had at least one son named Guillaume and another one who was a Franciscan monk (Cordelier), Frére Jean Ravanel, who died of black plague in the Saint Françoise Couvent in Savigny in 1532. (Bynfa's father was Benoït Trolliet, of Savigny).
https://archive.org/details/zeitschweizkirchen17/page/286/mode/2up?q=ravanel
No mention of Ravanel in Lausanne in the 1600s, so maybe they moved to Morges or other nearby place.
I have tracked down another Ravanel in Lausanne, Etienne François Ravanel, who was a bookseller associate of Victor Durand (Durand, Ravanel et Compagnie), between 1794 and 1796.
Their story is fascinating, but when I finally found Etienne's birth record it turned out that he was the illegimate son of François Ravanel with the widow Catherine Poterat. He lived in Grandson where Etienne was born in 1757, but he was actually from Rances and his family members were all Ravenel, apparently he changed his surname to Ravanel when he moved to Grandson.
Both Etienne and Victor were arrested for political reasons, they were patriots (a potentially interesting connection to Wolff and Deken), lots of info on Victor Durand, see this book - Books Without Borders in Enlightenment Europe: French Cosmopolitanism and German Literary Markets.
Etienne was arrested in Strasbourg in 1799, but I couldn't find anything else after this date.
https://books.google.com/books?redir_esc=y&hl=fr&id=2TRDAAAAcAAJ&q=ravanel#v=snippet&q=ravanel&f=false
I'm browsing the Archives Cantonales Vaudoises but it isn't easy to read the documents and I have found some issues with the surname index at the end of each file, some have been wrongly transcribed and Ravanel wasn't a common surname.
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I was wondering if instead of Morges, the origin of the Ravanel family could be Morge?
"The Morge, also called Morge de Saint-Gingolph, is a river in the Alps. Its course marks the border between France and Switzerland, between the canton of Valais and Haute-Savoie, southeast of Lake Geneva."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morge_(Lake_Geneva)
3 Ravanel at BEZIRK LEUK (Loèche):
Der Bezirk bildete im Mittelalter eine einzige Pfarrei.
SALGESCH
Ysabella Ravanel, Bazarodus Ravanel, Petrus Ravanel.
https://doc.rero.ch/record/18027/files/TA_640.pdf