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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Axonais on Sunday 13 July 25 11:20 BST (UK)
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According to correspondence in the State Archives in Munich, Bavaria, the widow Eugenie Caroline Theodore Rinsby died in the house of Mrs Cholmley in Lowerhill near Richmond, London, in 1806. Her own family name was Ravanel. She came from a Swiss family living in Zweibrücken in the Palatinate of the Rhine and was born in 1751. She had a sister married to a privy counsellor to the king of Bavaria, named Joseph Bouchet d’Epreville, living in Mannheim in 1810 and 1815.
Mrs. Rinsby’s will and probate can be found in the National Archives, Kew - Prerogative Court of Canterbury, dated 12 March 1810. reference PROB 11/1509/222. The will was signed in Langton in the North Riding of Yorkshire 13 January 1801. From it we learn that she had a relationship with the families of Mrs Colmley and Goulton. These ladies can be identified as Ann Jesse Cholmley née Smelt, wife of Nathaniel Cholmley (1721-1791), and Dorothea Goulton née Smelt of St John Delpike in York, wife of Thomas Goulton of the par. of St Mary’s Beverley, Yorkshire Eastriding. They were daughters of Leonard Smelt and his wife Ann Fairbridge. Leonard Smelt died in Langton Hall, Little Langton 2 September 1800. Mrs Rinsby most probably was a lady-companion to Leonard Smelt in Langton. His biography is in the Dictionary of National Biography.
The exact place and date of Mrs Rinsby’s death have not yet been found. Could somebody supply that information (with source) ?
Any further information on Mrs Rinsby and her relations with the Cholmley and Goulton families will be very welcome.
Many thanks in advance.
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What is this 1807 reference here?
https://dfg-viewer.de/show?tx_dlf%5Bdouble%5D=0&tx_dlf%5Bid%5D=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.gda.bayern.de%2Fmets%2F6ae667bf-c5a1-4652-b678-98b737005f09&tx_dlf%5Bpage%5D=3&cHash=d7bd46568928a08140c014ebdf2f32ab
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Dear PatLac,
Thanks for replying to my query. The reference you found on internet is a file in the Munich State Archives concerning the succession of Eugenie Caroline Theodore Rinsby née Ravanel. It contains correspondence between the Ministry of Foreign Affaires in Munich, the Bavaria ambassador in London and Mr. Joseph Bouchet d’Epreville about this succession during the years 1814 and 1815. The data in this file have been used for composing my query.
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Thanks Axonais, but does it refer to her date of death in 1806 or 1807?
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Anything here?
... Donation considerable Legnee la Mad nne Preville, dans et par la demiere Volonte et Testament Madame Eugenie Caroline Theodore Rinsby, veuve detunte, Soeur de dite Madame Previile. Donation mentionec comprend tout le reste du bien personnel de la Testatrice ...
Published: Monday 06 March 1815
Newspaper: Sussex Advertiser
County: Sussex, England
Type: Advertisement | Words: 230 | Page: 3
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Dear Patlac,
According to the Munich file her death was in Lower Hill near Richmond in 1806 or perhaps 1807. Her will was probated only in 1810. I found the advertisement in the Sussex Advertiser of 6 March 1815, just as you did, but I don’t know its full text jet. Would be great if you could be of help to find it somewhere. Please note the date 6 March 1815. The advertisement must have been placed in direct relation with the correspondence in 1814 and 1815.
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Unfortunately I don't have a subscription :( Let's hope someone else can check it for you.
I wonder if her married name has been misspelled? Rinsby is not a common surname.
On Ancestry her name has been transcribed Eugenie Caroline Theodora which makes more sense than Theodore.
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It's published in German and French
The French one...
SI Madame De PREVILLE maintenant ou dernierement residente a Manheim en Allemagne, est veuve, ou en cas de mort, ses plus prochies parents s'adresseront a Mr. JACQUES CHAMP, de la Ville de CHICHESTER, dans le Conte de Sussex, et dans le Royaume de la Grande Bretagne, Avocat et Notaire Public, ou a Mr. JEAN CLARK, No. 35, Southampton Buildings, Chancery-Lane, a Londres, pour prendret des informations sur une Donation considerable Legace a la dire Madame de Preville, dans et par la derniere Volonte et Testament de Madame Eugenie Caroline Theodore Rinsby, veuve defunte, Soeur de la dite Madame de Preville.
La Donation mentionee a dessus comprend tout le reste du bien personnel de la Testatrice.
N. B. Le Mari de Madame de Preville etoit autrefois conseiller du dernier Duc de Deux Ponts.
JAS. CHAMP.
27th Feb. 1815.
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The German one attached ;D
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Thank you jonwarm ;D
I wonder why it took so long to contact her sister if she died in 1806-7?
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From what I understood, the sister's husband was the one making a claim around 1815. Perhaps Eugenie was left an inheritance, or share of one, shortly before that date but it wasn't known right away that she had already died.
Wondering if Eugenie could have been a governess in the Smelt household which might explain why she was apparently living with Ann Smelt Cholmley when she died.
I did find this recent mention-
https://maritamathijsen.wordpress.com/2025/03/22/naar-trevoux/
Might be worth getting in touch with her.
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From what I understood, the sister's husband was the one making a claim around 1815. Perhaps Eugenie was left an inheritance, or share of one, shortly before that date but it wasn't known right away that she had already died.
Wondering if Eugenie could have been a governess in the Smelt household which might explain why she was apparently living with Ann Smelt Cholmley when she died.
I did find this recent mention-
https://maritamathijsen.wordpress.com/2025/03/22/naar-trevoux/
Might be worth getting in touch with her.
As I read it the solicitor Mr Champ of Chichester was asking Mde de Preville, last known in Mannheim, if she was living, or if not her nearest relatives, to contact him about a legacy in Eugenie's will.
If you think this was in the middle of the Napoleonic Wars, so contact with European relatives or knowledge of their current whereabouts might have been a bit challenging
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Marie was alive, she died 19 July 1836 in Mannheim. She and her husband Joseph were known as von Preville, but his name has many variations.
Dépréville (d'Epreville, de Breville), Joseph,
Councillor (Government of Palatinate-Zweibrücken, glk
Palatinate).
https://www.bayerischer-staatsrat.de/pdf/str1_1799.pdf
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The widow Rinsby née Ravanel came from a french speaking Ravanel family that had a very good relationship with the court in Zweibrücken and with other princely or ducal courts around in the 18th century. Some female membres served as governess or educators to the reigning families. Our Mrs Rinsby was a governess as well. She served as such in the Netherlands in 1784-1787. In 1788 she came to Trévoux, now département de l’Ain, near Lyon in France. In 1790, in Trévoux, she is mentioned in the will of two well known Dutch female writers as ‘dame Caroline Victoire Ravanel veuve de M. Charles Ferdinand Rinsby decedé capitaine de vaisseau au service de la republique d’Hollande’. Her Christian names differ in the various sources: Caroline Victoire, Caroline Frédérique and Eugenie Caroline Theodore (Theodora). The only place where the name of her deceased husband is given is in this will. However a ships-captain named Rinsby can nowhere be found in Dutch archives. As PatLac observed the surname of Rinsby is special and rather unique.
I thank jonwarrn for the copies of the advertisement in the Sussex Advertiser. Much appreciated! The names of Jacques Champ and Jean Clark can be found in the probate record of Mrs Rinsby’s will as well.
For good order’s sake I mention that Leonard Smelt, the father of Mrs. Cholmley and Mrs. Goulton, became Deputy Ranger of Richmond Park in about 1781. That may explain why Mrs. Rinsby died in Lowerhill near Richmond. He was an intimate to king George III and queen Charlotte. See; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leonard_Smelt_(British_Army_officer)
I do not now the English law on burials in the beginning of the 19th century, but I can imagine that for a burial a permission from the local authorities was obligatory. Was that perhaps the case for Richmond and were these permissions registered ?
I do agree that Mrs. Rinsby most probably was in the household of Leonard Smelt as a governess of lady-companion.
Many thanks to PatLac for the German book on the Bayerische Staatsrat. Very informative.
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Thank you for the additional information, Axonais!
I'm not in the UK so maybe I'm wrong but I understand that the death of a foreign person in England didn't have to be registered and maybe the Smelt Cholmley family had their own mausoleum on their estate?
By the way, have you managed to find where exactly was "Lowerhill, near Richmond"?
Ann Jessie Cholmley's address on 17 November 1805 was in Marylebone.
(f) Mrs. Ann Jessie Cholmley, 61 Wimpole Street, to Mrs. Mary Courtney, Beverley: family news. 17 November 1805
https://archiveshub.jisc.ac.uk/search/archives/b92d89ad-0f74-30d8-a811-e066a3c5b95a?component=2280c538-f712-33ff-a5cd-b27bb196c333
You said the Ravanel family was from Switzerland. Do you think this could be Eugenie's sister?
"For example, at the Hesse-Darmstadt court alone, there was a succession of such Swiss governesses. Marianne (or Marguerite) Ravanel, born in Morges, was governess to Princess Caroline of Hesse-Darmstadt’s daughter Amalie (1754-1832)"
https://books.openedition.org/pus/36456?lang=en
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2. 1758–1805: Pharmaceuticals and Money Lending: The Pillars of the Merck Business during the Age of Enlightenment
S. 60-82
„... the court Margarethe Katharina Ravanel engaged her as a French tutor for the princesses of ...” „... Plätzer, Mademoiselle Ravanelle, Schleiermacher, Hesse’s daughter, G. R. Klippstein, Dr. Allemer, Privy ...”
https://www.beck-elibrary.de/en/10.17104/9783406700408/merck?q=ravanel&page=1
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You said the Ravanel family was from Switzerland. Do you think this could be Eugenie's sister?
"For example, at the Hesse-Darmstadt court alone, there was a succession of such Swiss governesses. Marianne (or Marguerite) Ravanel, born in Morges, was governess to Princess Caroline of Hesse-Darmstadt’s daughter Amalie (1754-1832)"
https://books.openedition.org/pus/36456?lang=en
Her aunt!
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I suppose you have her parents' marriage record?
https://orka.bibliothek.uni-kassel.de/viewer/fullscreen/1430384797155_004/14/
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There might be a faint hope that the date of death could be written along with the probate details on or with the original will (apparently it was written in French, it should be at TNA)
I wouldn't be confident, but you do see it in some courts at that time, i.e. here on this Lancashire will proved in 1810 in the Chester Consistory Court
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-D4MS-2P
I don't think it would be given in a Probate Act Book entry in 1810, like we have them from 1858 in the annual national probate calendars.
Depending on the value of her estate, the death duty register entry might be useful :-\
Available on microfilm at TNA or at a LDS FamilySearch Centre
Madame Rinsby doesn't seem to be in the Richmond burial register. They do have a few more exotic names than is the norm in them, a Count Alexander du Pont was buried there in 1805.
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Cholmley's Estate, between Portsmouth Road and river Thames, Long Ditton.
https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHCOL_2249_1_1_1_1
Copy of affidavit by David Dundas of Richmond, surgeon, and Catherine Sayer, servant to Anne Jesse Cholmley of Richmond, to the effect that they witnessed Anne Jesse Cholmley signed her consent to a bill (missing) annexed and that she was unable to appear through illness.
https://www.exploringsurreyspast.org.uk/collections/getrecord/SHCOL_504_12_1_1_1
One place to look for her burial record could be Thames Ditton St. Nicholas
https://www.surreygraveyards.org.uk/elmbridge/thamesdittstl.shtml
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I wonder if this was Eugenie?
The twelve items in the Beaupoil de St. Aulaire letters concern the social activities and family news of a female French émigré living in England at the turn of the nineteenth century. The letters are primarily personal in nature, but also discuss French politics, language, and culture, particularly in reference to Napoleon Bonaparte and the French Revolution. The letters, many of which do not address the recipient by name, all appear to be written to the same person, possibly a Miss Phipps, who is living with Mrs. Cholmley "under the hill" at Richmond, Surrey.
Dates
Creation: 1803-08 - 1803-10
https://archivesspace.williams.edu/repositories/4/resources/466
Anne Elizabeth Cholmley Phipps was born on 19 May 1788, the daughter of John Constantine Phipps, Baron Mulgrave (1744-92; ODNB), naval officer, arctic explorer, and politician, and Anne Elizabeth Phipps, née Cholmley (1769-88). Her mother died in childbirth leaving her as her father’s sole heir. After her father’s death in 1792, Anne Elizabeth Phipps grew up under the guardianship of her widowed grandmother, Anne Jesse Cholmley (1748-c.1812). Her guardian’s consent was needed and obtained when, still a minor, Anne Elizabeth Phipps married Sir John Murray, eighth baronet (1768?-1827; ODNB) in 1807.
https://btw.wlv.ac.uk/authors/1103
The place was literally UNDER THE HILL, wrongly translated Lowerhill.
BURIAL: Parish: Richmond, St Mary Magdalene; John Jepson; 62 years; Burial Date: 8 Jun 1838. Archive Reference No: P7/1/12; Text: St. Mary Madgdalene: Burials in the Parish of Richmond in the County of Surrey in the Year 1838; Entry No. 927 Text: John Jepson F 36 N Abode: Under the Hill; When Buried: June 8th; Age 47; Off Min: G. Coulcher. Surrey, England, Burials, 1813-1987; Ancestry.com; Publisher: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc; Publisher Date: 2013; Publisher Location: Provo, UT, USA; Original data: Anglican Parish Registers. Woking, Surrey, England: Surrey History Centre.
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Jepson-25
Another resident of "Under the Hill"
https://www.open.ac.uk/Arts/reading/UK/record_details.php?id=17692
And here:
https://leicester.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/366272/rec/2
Lady Caroline Murray lived at Under the Hill, Richmond in 1855.
https://leicester.contentdm.oclc.org/digital/collection/p16445coll4/id/366271/rec/2
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/270047091/caroline-murray#view-photo=294585467
So maybe this is the place to enquiire for her burial place?
https://www.surreygraveyards.org.uk/richmond/richmondstmm.shtml
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A house being sold at Under the Hill, Richmond, on the Morning Chronicle 14 July 1806. There is another advertisement but this one is free ;D
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You could try to find this book.
"List of Graves in Vineyard Passage Burial Ground’ (Judith Filson 1985: Richmond Local Studies Collection)"
https://richmond.gov.uk/media/21455/vineyard_passage_burial_ground.pdf
Coincidentally, the Reverend died the same year (1806).
In the Vestry Minutes for 20 October 1806, mention was made of the natural springs
that were common on the Hill:
“Resolved that the Reverend Mr Wakefield and the Church Wardens be requested to
examine and report to the Vestry their opinion of the necessity of the new burial
ground being drained from the great flow of land springs therein”
Nothing appears to have happened about this, probably due to the death of the
Reverend Wakefield in that same year.
Good luck with your research and let me know if you find her!
Cheers.
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Despite your lack of feedback I am insisting on posting because I keep finding interesting things that might be pertinent to your question.
Abraham Trembley et autres précepteurs suisses en Hollande. Correspondances (1733-1801)
Page 454
Ravanel, Mlle : 390, 392
https://classiques-garnier.com/export/pdf/abraham-trembley-et-autres-precepteurs-suisses-en-hollande-correspondances-1733-1801-index.html?displaymode=full
https://classiques-garnier.com/abraham-trembley-et-autres-precepteurs-suisses-en-hollande-correspondances-1733-1801-preface.html?displaymode=full
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Dear PatLac,
Excuse me for coming back so retardingly. I was very busy these days. Yes I do appreciate your postings very much. I know Kees van Strien’s book already. His findings in Dutch archives are important.
I have to look at your other postings as yet. Miss Phipps was a daughter of Nathaniel Cholmley and Henrietta Catherine Croft. Nathaniel Cholmley married again to Anne Jesse Smelt, daughter of Leonard Smelt, mentioned in my query and mentioned by you. She is the Mrs Cholmley mentioned by Eugenie Rinsby in her will. Eugenie must have followed Mrs Cholmley to Richmond after Leonard Smelt’s death.
The Local Studies Library in Richmond (https://www.richmond.gov.uk/local_studies_collection) seems to have a film of Richmond burials in the beginning of the 19th century. I hope they can search them on my behalf.