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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: RHP485 on Wednesday 09 July 25 22:20 BST (UK)
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Thomas Pyle born: 1831 died: 1882 in County Durham.
Can anyone with the knowledge and access to records give me help to confirm who Thomas's father and grandparents were?
I believe both his father and grandfather were called Thomas as well. His mother was called Harriet.
I have seen conflicting information about who his father, grandfather and grandmother could be.
Thank you!
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Thomas appears in the 1841 census with his parents Thomas and Harriett.
By 1851 census his mother Harriet is a widow.
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Thomas PYLE, son of Thomas and Harriot.
Baptism 17 Jan 1831 Houghton-le-Spring
Abode – Tile Sheds, father’s occupation - Pitman
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MARRIAGE 15 July 1829 Bishopwearmouth
Thomas PYLE to Harriet KIRTLEY
The census records -
Thomas PYLE born abt 1783, but not born in county of Durham
Harriet KIRTLEY / KIRKLEY born about 1785-1795 in Scotland
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Possible Baptism for Thomas Pyle - 20 Jan 1783 in Woodhorn Northumberland
Parents – Thomas and Isabel
But no way of knowing if this is correct.
Added ------
Thomas PYLE marriage to Isabel PEARSON
16 May 1764 Newbiggin-by-the-Sea (Both bride and groom from Newbiggin)
Children baptised to Thomas and Isabel:-
Henry 1764 Newbiggin
Dorothy 1766 Newbiggin
John 1768 Newbiggin
Isabel 1770 Newbiggin
William 1772 Woodhorn (abode Newbigin)
Robert 1775 Newbiggin
Mary 1777 Newbiggin
Margaret 1779 Newbiggin
Thomas 1783 Woodhorn (abode Newbigin)
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The 1841 Census includes "Eward (sic) Pyle, age 3" born after Civil Registration began.
Birth Registration
Edward Pyle, Jun Qtr 1839, Tynemouth Union, 25 402, mother's maiden name KIRKLEY - see bride's surname at reply #3.
FindMyPast Baptism (transcript only)
Edward Pyle, 14 Jul 1839, place Gosforth, parents Thomas and Harriet
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Other children for Thomas and Harriet:-
• Mary Ann Pyle baptised 14 Oct 1832 Houghton le Spring
• Robert Pyle baptised 20 Dec 1835 Chester-le-Street, Durham, burial 26 Dec 1839 Longbenton (abode Gosforth Row)
• Edward Pyle bapt 14 July 1839 Gosforth, Northumberland (Father, a pitman)
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Reply #1 places Thomas Snr's death 1841-1851
FindMyPast Burial (transcript only)
Thomas Pyle, 6 Jan 1850, age 68 (born c. 1782), place St Nicholas, Hetton le Hole, abode Brick Garth
Age at death "fits" Thomas' age 58 on the 1841 Census (age not rounded down)
FindMyPast marriages (transcripts only).
Thomas Pile (sic) married Harriet Dawson 19 Oct 1850 - his father is named as Thomas Pile rather than recorded as deceased.
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See also this thread-
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=892500.0
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Hi Neil1961
I fully agree with you about who Thomas's father and grandparents were!
Grandparents were Thomas & Isabel Pyle married in 1764. Their son Thomas Pyle was born in 1783 which I believe is the father of Thomas born in 1831 and was murdered at Durham in 1882.
However another distant member of the family says his father was Thomas Pile/Pyle born in July 1787 and his grandmother was Ann Stafford/Salford born 1755. Grandfather was possibly Richard Reed Hodgson born 1748.
So I am finding it hard to confirm which of us has the correct information but I agree with you and your information!
Any suggestions to decide who is right Neil1961?
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Have you looked at the census and age at death.
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FindMyPast burials (transcript only)
Thomas Pyle, buried 10 Jan 1791, St Bartholomew, Newbiggin by the Sea - no age recorded. FreeReg also has a transcript - again no age recorded.
Possible candidates are the Thomas Pyle who married Isabel 1764 at Newbiggin by the Sea and the Thomas Pyle baptised 1783, Woodhorn.
Thomas Pyle and Isabel Pearson married 16 May 1764 Newbiggin by the Sea. An Isabella Pyle, age 93, was buried 7 Aug 1832, St Bartholomew, Newbiggin by the Sea. The only Thomas Pyle burial, Newbiggin by the Sea, I can see that would "fit" Isabel's husband is the 1791 death leaving Thomas Jnr still in the frame for the Thomas that married Harriet.
Checked the Durham Wills Project for a possible will for Thomas Snr. but drew a blank.
Checked for a Newbiggin by the Sea/Woodhorn marriage for a Thomas Pyle/Pile from 1800-1840 but drew a blank.
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Grandparents were Thomas & Isabel Pyle married in 1764. Their son Thomas Pyle was born in 1783 which I believe is the father of Thomas born in 1831 and was murdered at Durham in 1882.
I think there may be a problem with this idea.
There are a couple of later baptisms at Newbiggin by the Sea to a Thomas Pyle and his wife Frances.
Mary, 9 January 1816
Father a Seaman
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/684db2bd86557455d47e80ef
Thomas, 11 May 1817
Father a Master Mariner
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/684db2bd86557455d47e812d
But then there is a baptism of a Thomas Pyle, 6 April 1818, at Earsdon. Parents Thomas and Frances.
Abode South Blyth
Father a Mariner
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/684d4f5e86557455d4572378
Did Thomas 1 die, or is it the same child? :-\
Anyway, followed at Earsdon by the baptisms of twins, 3 January 1820
Isabella
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/684d4f6a86557455d4572a01
and John
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/684d4f6b86557455d4572a08
Again, abode South Blyth
Father Thomas a Master Mariner
Isabella seems to have died in infancy and buried at South Shields, 25 April 1821.
Abode Spring Lane
Age 12 21 months
Image of BT here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6WKS-J5F
Later that year in South Shields, 28 November1821
Baptism of Frances, daughter of Thomas + Frances Pyle.
Father a Master Mariner
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6WKS-PXK
Baptism at South Shields, 1 May 1825, of son Robert
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6WKS-KBG
There is also a burial there, 12 July 1829, of a Thomas Pyle, age 12.
Abode North Shields
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-67R7-4Z4
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To continue, we have probate records
Thomas PYLE, mariner, of South Shields in the Chapelry of Saint Hild in the County of Durham [South Shields, County Durham].
Date of death 17 March 1825
Date of probate 8 March 1838
Renunciation, (DPR/I/3/1838/A29/2-3)
Renunciation of Frances Pyle, relict, 26 February 1838
Election of guardian, 26 February 1838
Administration bond, penal sum £100, 8 March 1838
Well, the guardian/administrator is Thomas Hutchinson Pyle of Earsdon, Surgeon.
Pages of it starting here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DB1W-8ZZ
THP was a cousin of the surviving children named, who are minors.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DC8X-LN
Also on 8 March 1838
William PYLE, master mariner, of South Shields in the chapelry of Saint Hild in the county of Durham (South Shields, County Durham)
Date of probate 26 February 1813
Original will here. Includes his mother Isabella Pyle
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DC7R-5X
Probate regranted on 8 March 1838, with will annexed
Will bond, penal sum £3,000, 8 March 1838
Administration granted to Thomas Hutchinson Pyle, the son and administrator of John Pyle, deceased, the brother and one of the residuary legatees; the sole executor having died without completing administration.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-6XS3-LBS
And here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DC8F-Z9
Also on 8 March 1838, Thomas Hutchinson Pyle has an administration granted for his father John
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DC8F-SB
John PYLE, mariner, of North Shields in the parish of Tynemouth in the County of Northumberland [North Shields, Northumberland].
Date of death March 1818
Date of probate 8 March 1838
Pyle died at sea.
Administration bond, penal sum £100, 8 March 1838
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DB1W-8ZT
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Baptism of Thomas Hutchinson Pyle at Tynemouth, 20 February 1805
Father John, mother Sarah (nee Hutchinson)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NYH6-M8R
Image of BT here
2nd son of John Pyle of North Shields, Master Mariner, Native of Woodhorn
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DZ7S-CL2
Add in FreeReg transcription
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/684ddc3386557455d48fa52c
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Hi Jonwrrn
Many thanks for your thoughts on this issue!
As I was saying in my last reply to Neale1961 the information that he gave me convinced that my information is right and my other distant relative is wrong.
The other relative and I agree the mother of Thomas Pyle born 1831 was Harriet (Kirtley) Pyle.
However I believe, like Neale1961, that his father was Thomas Pyle christened in Jan 1783 in Woodhorn Northumberland. From that his grandparents were Thomas Pyle and Isabel (Pearson) Pyle married in 1764 Newbiggin by the Sea.
The other relative is convinced that his father was Thomas (Pile) Pyle born in 1787 in Houghton le Spring. From this they believe his grandmother was Ann Stafford/Salford born in 1755 and his grandfather was probably Richard Reed Hodgson born 1748.
So I was trying to confirm if anyone could confirm which of us is correct Jonwrrn.
Thanks!
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Hi there
I am not convinced that your Thomas is the one who was from Newbiggin. Because it looks to me that the family were mariners, and the three administrations taken out in 1838 by Thomas Hutchinson Pyle were for three brothers, John, William and Thomas, who could be the ones baptised in Woodhorn and Newbiggin. In William's will he does name his mother as Isabella (who would have still been alive when his will was proved in 1813)
As to the Thomas baptised at Houghton in 1787, I haven't looked at him but we know your chap was a not born county in the 1841 census, and his age on death in 1850 suggests that he was older.
Are there any alternatives? :-\
Durham Records Online does index a Thomas Pile baptised in Northumberland in 1781.
It seems that freereg has him as Pole. The baptism was at Newburn, 9 September 1781. Parents William and Elizabeth. Living at Newbottle.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/60e41e87f493fd01bb9b20ab
There are no other Pole baptisms there around the time, there are records in Newburn for Pile, Powell, and later Peile, and similar. Not sure what to make of it really.
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Hi Jonwrrn
I can see without doubt the difficulties people can experience when do their family trees!! It amazes me how some people can go back when Adam was born (Lol) without making any mistakes!
The Thomas Pyle born in 1831 was my great great grandfather who was murdered in Durham in April 1882.
I know, similar to the other relative, that his mother was Harriet (Kirtley) Pyle born in Oct 1794 in Scotland and died in 1872. She was married to a Thomas Pyle on 5th July 1829 at
Bishopwearmouth.
The problem is who was the Thomas Pyle that she married which will then also determine who his parents and the Thomas Pyle, murdered at Durham, grandparents were!
My other family member believes the Thomas who married Harriet Kirtley in 1829 was Thomas Pile/Pyle born in Houghton le Spring on 23 July 1787 at Bishopwearmouth. He died in 1848. His mother is said to be Ann Stafford/Salford born in 1755 in Northumberland who died in 1820 and married a Richard Reed Hodgson on 2nd December 1788.
Like my other relative I also have always believed that my great great grandfather Thomas Pyle born in 1832 and died in 1882 mother was Harriet (Kirtley) born in Scotland in 1794.
Everthing I found at the time and recently here with Neale1961 was that his father was Thomas Pyle born in 1783 in Woodhorn Northumberland who died in 1850. I believed that he was the Thomas Pyle who married Harriet Kirtley on 15th July 1829 in Bishopwearmouth!
I believe that that Thomas Pyles parents were Thomas and Isabel (Pearson) Pyle married on 16th May in 1764 in Newbiggin by the sea.
So thats where we have the confliction where we have no idea which of us is correct but we honestly believe one of us has the right information of who Harriet Kirtley in July 1829 and who were that Thomas's parents. This would have been the father and grandparents of Thomas Pyle, murdered in Durham 1882,
I am just lost now of what to do next!
Thank you!
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From the Northumberland Archives catalogue
Apprenticeship indenture of Thomas Pile [Pyle], son of the late Thomas Pile [Pyle] of Newbiggin.
Thomas Pyle was apprenticed to Robert Pearson of Seaton Sluice in the Parish of Earsdon, Master Mariner, for a term of three years.
Date 10 May 1798
Ref No. NRO 08630/4
There is an image
https://calmview.northumberland.gov.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=NRO+08630%2f4&pos=2
NRO 08630 - Documents relating to the Pyle and Oxley families regarding their involvement in shipping, 1787-1837.
So this seems to confirm things further.
Sadly the Thomas Pyle from Newbiggin is not the man you are looking for.
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MARRIAGE 15 July 1829 Bishopwearmouth
Thomas PYLE to Harriet KIRTLEY
Image of BT here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C3SW-S95Z-3
Marital status not given. They both marked.
One witness looks like Thomas Kirtley, the other one appears to be a regular.
Thomas was quite old when he married, wasn't he. Could he have been in the army? :-\
THOMAS PYLE
Born Newcastle, Northumberland
Served in 33rd Foot Regiment
Discharged aged 42
Date: 1813-1828
Reference: WO 97/514/30
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C8745615
I think that will mean he was discharged in 1828.
The record will be on findmypast. I don't have access, can you see it?
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If he was discharged in 1828 age 42, it would make that chap a bit younger than we want :(
Though I suppose they didn't always tell the truth about their age when they enlisted.
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Thomas Pyle, 6 Jan 1850, age 68 (born c. 1782), place St Nicholas, Hetton le Hole, abode Brick Garth
Age at death "fits" Thomas' age 58 on the 1841 Census (age not rounded down)
Oh wow, it looks like that army record is him.
Chelsea pension records on FamilySearch
Lower right hand side entries
Pensions ceased by death
Thoms. Pyle
33rd Foot
Date of admission to out pension 21/5/28
Date of Decease 4/1/50
Age at Decease 67
Image here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C9BJ-2HZ6
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From that Military record
Born Newcastle county of Northumberland
Enlisted 6 April 1813 in Kilkenny, co of Kilkenny at the age of 28 for unlimited service
Served 15 years & 22 Days
2 yrs at Waterloo
1822-1828 in either the E or W Indies
Discharged due to Staphlyoma of left eye and opacity of right cornea.
Tolerable vision right eye which will improve.
5ft 5in tall,, Dk hair, swarthy complexion
There is a note on the back I cannot interpret dated 29 /9/ 96. Something to Grandson.
Will see if I can clip
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Thank you, mckha :)
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1896 clip
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We may need a military expert for that!
Further to mckha's info from the WO 97 record (well not really further, just another record)
From TNA, in the pension admissions recorded in WO 116 , Thomas is among those discharged on 21 May 1828
We can see it using their image viewer, with all the watermarking and the horizontal bar (why, when it is now free?) Or you can download the whole thing to read it properly (for free if you register with them)
Images 6 and 7.
Thomas Pyle of 33rd Foot is third from the bottom.
Doesn't give an occupation for him.
It looks like his age may have been amended from 42 to 45?
Images and viewer here
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C14728575
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Oh sorry, occupation on the FindMyPast record is Labourer. And he marked.
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Excellent, it all fits.
Discharged in 1828, married the following year (when he marked)
Must be him, because of the death date. Age at decease in the later pensions record matches the age given in the GRO index. Unless it's the wrong death (seems unlikely!)
So some progress at last.
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Hi Jonwrrn
Yes it looks like my distant relative has got the right Thomas Pyle and not me!
She believes his mother is Ann Stafford/Salford born in 1755 in Dentonburn who died in 1820 and married a Richard Reed Hodgson in December 1788 in Chester le Street. He may have been Thomas's father and they were the grandparents of Thomas Pyle murdered at Durham in 1881?
Not sure if you or anyone else can confirm this?
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That baptism was 23 July 1787 at Newburn in Northumberland. Close to Newcastle.
FreeReg transcription
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/684d9d3c86557455d476a882
BT here
Thomas S of Richard Pile + Ann Stalford base born Et.(East) Denton
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6XW9-XG6
I'm afraid I don't know how likely it is that it is your Thomas.
A Richard Pyle married Martha Colvin, 25 Dec 1790, in Newcastle. Same man? :-\
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58182934e93790eb7f487610
And there is a Richard Pile in the Returns of men and carts, Westgate, Newcastle upon Tyne, in 1798. Perhaps that's him
https://calmview.northumberland.gov.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=Q%2fS%2fB%2f90%2f6%2f25&pos=1
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All references I have found for the marriage of Ann Stalford 1788 have the date as 22 Mar 1788 and at Newburn, it's on freereg and Genuki
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tv7/
This transcription has Richard Reed Hobson wid. and Ann Stalford single
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tv8/
it's no.767
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On freereg there is a baptism for Ann Reed or Hodgson, illegitimate dau. 19 Oct 1788
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tv9/
Parents transcribed as Richard Reed and Ann Hodgson, thery are living in East Denton
other childrens baptisms are there to.
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Thanks for all the replies so far!
I think I have everything I need now to resolve the issue of who Thomas Pyle, born 1831, father and grandparents were!
His father was Thomas Pile/Pyle born in July 1787 in Houghton le Spring. His grandmother was Ann Stafford/Salford born in 1755. His grand father was Richard Pile.
It looks like his grandfather and grandmother were not married so his father probably at first had his grandmother's surname Stafford/Salford but later decided to use his grandfather's surname Pile/Pyle.
His Grandmother eventually married Richard Reed Hodgson (Hobson shown on church register) in 1788.
Thanks for all the information which at last proves my information on this issue was wrong and my distant relative has the right information!