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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Rowan Tree on Monday 07 July 25 16:56 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I'm looking at an 1848 birth certificate for Mary Jane TWISS, daughter of Ellen TWISS.
I'd thought Mary Jane was born in Haydock, Lancs., and the 1851 and 1861 Censuses back this up, but I couldn't find a birth in the appropriate registration district (Warrington).
I did, however, find a birth registration in a bordering reg. district (Wigan).
I'm now looking at the birth and it looks like a fit. Ashton-in-Makerfield and Haydock border each other. Mary Jane's baptism was in Ashton-in-Makerfield. And the d/o/b on the birth cert. matches the d/o/b recorded with the baptism.
I'm wondering if Ellen Twiss, Mary Jane's mother, moved from Ashton-in-Makerfield, back to Haydock (where she was from) in-between the birth and the baptism because the baptism records a residence of Haydock. Mary Jane is living in Haydock on the 1851 Census.
Anyway... I'm struggling with the place of birth.
I THINK it reads, Lodge or Judge Field Barn or Barns, Ashton.
Can anyone take a look and give me their opinion, please? Also, does anyone know where in Ashton-in-Makerfield this was/is?
Many thanks,
Rowan Tree :)
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It's Judge Field Brow.
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From LancashireOPC
Baptism: 6 Aug 1848 St Thomas, Ashton in Makerfield, Lancashire
Mary Jane Twiss - 2 Illegitimate 2 Daughter of Ellen Twiss
Born: 19 Jul 1848
Abode: Haydock
Occupation: Servant
Baptised By: E Pigot Vicar
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It's Judge Field Brow.
Thanks so much, Shaun :)
I was close, but not close enough.
RT :)
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From LancashireOPC
Baptism: 6 Aug 1848 St Thomas, Ashton in Makerfield, Lancashire
Mary Jane Twiss - 2 Illegitimate 2 Daughter of Ellen Twiss
Born: 19 Jul 1848
Abode: Haydock
Occupation: Servant
Baptised By: E Pigot Vicar
Thanks, Rosie. I have this baptism. RT :)
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Has anyone heard of Judge Field Brow in Ashton-in-Makerfield, or know where it was/is?
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I only mentioned it because as well as the 2 census you mention it says Haydock ;D
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Has anyone heard of Judge Field Brow in Ashton-in-Makerfield, or know where it was/is?
1851
HO107
Piece 2201
Folio 236
Page 17
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I only mentioned it because as well as the 2 census you mention it says Haydock ;D
Yes - I mention this in my original comment :)
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Has anyone heard of Judge Field Brow in Ashton-in-Makerfield, or know where it was/is?
1851
HO107
Piece 2201
Folio 236
Page 17
That's great :)
Thanks, Rosie
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More or less in the middle of this old map, between Old Florida and Clipsley Lane. Close to the Toll Gate (TG)
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Thanks, Shaun!
That's fascinating. I'm now trying to decide if I'm confused or if everything has just become clear.
Clipsley Lane is below Judge Field Brow on the map. As far as I'm aware, Clipsley Lane has always been in Haydock. I have members of the TWISS family living on Clipsley Lane in Haydock on the 1841 Census.
On this map you can see Old Florida and Old Boston north of Judge Field Brow. And there's rather helpfully a label of Haydock near Old Boston. Again, as far as I know, Florida and Boston have always been in Haydock.
So, as Judge Field Brow is above Clipsley Lane and below Florida, doesn't that mean that Judge Field Brow is in Haydock?
If I'm missing something obvious, feel free to point it out ???
Rowan Tree :)
P.S. What year is this map from, please?
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On this 1840s OS map you can see Judgefield Brow just above the Hare and Hounds Inn
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102344075#zoom=6.2&lat=3137&lon=6266&layers=BT
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1891 map "Juddfield Brow"
https://maps.nls.uk/view/126522398#zoom=5.6&lat=1858&lon=9434&layers=BT
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By 1925 it had been renamed Vicarage Road:
https://maps.nls.uk/view/126522404#zoom=6.1&lat=1808&lon=9392&layers=BT
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Yes, I can. That's fab. Thanks :)
What's particularly helpful with this map is that I can see a boundary line just above "Judgefield Brow." The boundary appears to follow the line of the Clipsley Brook.
If I'm reading this map correctly, Ashton is north of the Clipsley Brook, and Haydock is south of the Clipsley Brook.
Many thanks to you, Shaun :)
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Shaun, you're a star!
That's such a lot of information and it's incredibly helpful.
Thanks for your help with this one - I needed it :)
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I've just been following this up by looking at the tithe maps from 1838. This confirms that the Clipsley Brook is the border between Haydock and Ashton in that area.
In Haydock I can see the following as land occupiers:
David Twist
Thomas Twist
James Twist
Joseph Twist
William Twist
Using this map as reference
https://maps.nls.uk/view/102344075#zoom=6.9&lat=3166&lon=6434&layers=BT
David Twist (nine plots) is located at the house and strip of land starting below the 'w' of Stone Row and extending north beside the label for Pear Tree House.
Thomas Twist has four plots, and they are scattered
James Twist (thirteen plots) is a little to the east of David Twist, south of Clipsley Row on the linked map
Joseph Twist (two plots) is just across the road from David Twist
William Twist (two plots) to the NE of David Twist in the New Florida area.
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In the tithe records for Lancashire the only hits for TWISS are in Golborne.
There are many hits for TWIST, all over the county including Haydock as detailed above, but none of these is in Ashton.
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The six-inch map in Reply #12 shows the township boundary following the Clipsley Brook. Zoom out and you will see Haydock as a township name in large black italic letters with its acreage beneath.
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I've just been following this up by looking at the tithe maps from 1838. This confirms that the Clipsley Brook is the border between Haydock and Ashton in that area.
In Haydock I can see the following as land occupiers:
David Twist
Thomas Twist
James Twist
Joseph Twist
William Twist
Hi Alan,
This is brilliant stuff. Thanks so much :D
The names TWISS and TWIST were very much interchangeable in the first half of the 19th century (and beyond actually). I'm pretty sure that all the men you mentioned are my guys. Their names and the names of their descendants seem to settle with the spelling of TWISS. Ironically, I do have the name TWIST in my family tree but my TWISTs are, so far, separate from my TWISS'.
This is who I think the TWIST/TWISS men are from the 1838 Tithe Maps;
Brothers
James 1780 - 1854
Thomas 1784 - 1851
Joseph 1789 - 1866
David 1792 - 1852
William 1802 - possibly died in 1839 (I'm struggling with William)
Their parents; Thomas TWIST/TWISS 1753 - 1829 and Sarah nee KNOWLES 1759 - 1850.
James (the eldest brother to survive infancy) b. 1780 has been interesting me recently. I've found out that he was the landlord of the Waggon and Horses Inn on Clipsley Lane. He was the landlord on the 41 and 51 census, and when he died in 1854. He might have been the original landlord of the pub because I don't think it had been standing long in 1841. On the index for James' will it says he was a publican and a farmer. I've ordered the will from Lancashire Record Office.
Thomas b. 1784 was a collier who lived on Clipsley Lane. This is the brother I'm descended from.
Speaking of Clipsley Lane; on the 1841 Census, there's a page where James TWISS b. 1780, his wife, Sarah, Joseph TWISS b. 1789, his wife, Mary, (plus a large household of children and grandchildren), Thomas TWISS b. 1784, his wife, Anne, + two children, and a married nephew of the brothers, David Baines (who was a son of Ellen TWISS, a sister of the TWISS brothers) and family are all living next-door to each other.
Joseph b. 1789 appears with different occupations from census to census. In 41 he's an engineer, in 51 he's a basket maker, and in 61 he's an engine driver. He lived on or near Clipsley Lane. He had a very busy household with lots of children and grandchildren. He died in a cholera outbreak in 1866 with his wife and one of his adult sons.
David b. 1792 was a collier and a farmer of 8 acres who lived at Smithy Houses. On the 1841 census, David either lives with or next-door to the brothers' mother, Sarah nee KNOWLES.
William b. 1802. I'm very uncertain about William. I'm certain he existed and was born in 1802, but I've got more work to do. I've got two William TWISS/TWIST death certificates for 1839, one in Newton, and one in Parr. One or neither of them might be William.
It's interesting that you mention Stone Row. That feels like such a significant location in my family tree. It crops up from generation to generation with many of my family and ancestors living there.
Rowan Tree :)
P.S. Apologies for my slow reply. I'm full of a cough and cold and feeling rather grotty. Family history is cheering me up, though.
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Anyone interested in the Clipsley Lane area of Haydock might be interested in the attached newspaper clippings that feature Stone Row.
In the second clipping, Martha Harrison and Peers Harrison are mentioned. They're my ancestors. Anne Barber is my mum's cousin. And the Huntsman pub was once run by Peers Harrison's father, William Ironmonger.
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So this is probably one of yours? This is a from a long article about an inquest following an explosion at Haydock Colliery.
6 July 1878: Wigan Observer and District Advertiser
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The six-inch map in Reply #12 shows the township boundary following the Clipsley Brook. Zoom out and you will see Haydock as a township name in large black italic letters with its acreage beneath.
Thanks, Molly :)
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So this is probably one of yours? This is a from a long article about an inquest following an explosion at Haydock Colliery.
6 July 1878: Wigan Observer and District Advertiser
Good find. I'm assuming that's a clipping taken from an article detailing the Wood Pit Mining Disaster in Haydock.
This is an interesting one. I'm not sure if the Thomas and Edward TWIST mentioned are in my tree, but I do need to double-check this. I do have a Thomas TWIST who is currently in my tree through marriage alone. He married Ellen BAINES (BANE) in 1849. If Thomas and Ellen had sons in the first years of their marriage, they'd have been old enough to be in Wood Pit in 1878. I have next to nothing on Thomas and Ellen TWIST at the moment. I need to pin this couple down and find out what happened to them after their marriage. Ellen BAINES is a TWISS descendant btw.
Keeping to Twist's/Twiss' and Wood Pit; think of Joseph, one of the brothers you found on the Tithe Maps.
Joseph had a son named James 1816 - 1866 (this is the adult son who died in the cholera outbreak with Joseph and his wife, Mary).
James had two sons who died in the 1878 Wood Pit Disaster.
James b. 1851
95. James Twiss, 27 years
A collier, of Toll Bar, Haydock who left a wife and three children. He was identified by Elizabeth Mercer and buried with his brother, Joseph (no. 102) at St. Thomas, Ashton, 16th June. His drawer was William Carey (no. 121). In the burial records the name is given as Twist.
Joseph b. 1856
102. Joseph Twiss, 22 years
According to the records of the time the name is spelt Twist. He was a dataller of Clipsley Lane, Haydock who left a wife and three children. He was identified by his wife, Margaret and is buried with his brother James (no. 95) at St. Thomas, Ashton, 16th June.
Also from my tree is;
William WILCOCK no. 6 (my direct ancestor and the father of my nana's, nana. My nana was named after William's daughter)
William BAINES no. 167
John BAINES no. 168
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In 1861 in Smithy Row there is an Edward Twist age 11 months son of Thomas Twist (30) and Jane Twist (27) who fits with the inquest report.
Couldn't help noticing that two doors away on the same page is Joseph TWISS, lodger, 71, engine driver.
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In 1861 in Smithy Row there is an Edward Twist age 11 months son of Thomas Twist (30) and Jane Twist (27) who fits with the inquest report.
Couldn't help noticing that two doors away on the same page is Joseph TWISS, lodger, 71, engine driver.
I've just found Ellen and Thomas living at Stone Row in 1851. I'm wondering if Ellen died and then Thomas remarried? More digging...
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I do have a Thomas TWIST who is currently in my tree through marriage alone. He married Ellen BAINES (BANE) in 1849. If Thomas and Ellen had sons in the first years of their marriage, they'd have been old enough to be in Wood Pit in 1878. I have next to nothing on Thomas and Ellen TWIST at the moment. I need to pin this couple down and find out what happened to them after their marriage. Ellen BAINES is a TWISS descendant btw.
I've just found Ellen and Thomas living at Stone Row in 1851. I'm wondering if Ellen died and then Thomas remarried? More digging...
Not sure if this is related to your Thomas & Ellen TWIST or not surname transcribed as SWIST on Anc*y
1861c
Piece 2779
Folio 85
Page number 4
Thomas 37 Head Parr, Lancashire coal miner
Ellen 34 Wife
William 15 Son
Mary Ann 8 Daughter
Thomas 4 Son
All others born Abram, Lancashire
Is this the birth entry for Thomas?
TWIST, THOMAS mmn BAINES
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 117
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I'm still trying to piece this together but, I've got the following marriages:
10th September 1849. St. Thomas (Eccleston), Prescot
Thomas TWIST, 21, bachelor, miner, Windle, William TWIST, miner
Ellen BANE, 22, spinster, Windle, William BANE, miner
Married by banns
Witnessed by John BANE and Jane TWIST
17th March 1856. St. Elphin, Warrington
Thomas TWISS, 26, widower, labourer, Bold St, William TWISS, deceased
Jane SPENCER, 21, spinster, Bold St, Edward SPENCER, labourer
Married by banns
Witnessed by George Pierpoint and Sarah Dutton
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Not sure if this is related to your Thomas & Ellen TWIST or not surname transcribed as SWIST on Anc*y
1861c
Piece 2779
Folio 85
Page number 4
Thomas 37 Head Parr, Lancashire coal miner
Ellen 34 Wife
William 15 Son
Mary Ann 8 Daughter
Thomas 4 Son
All others born Abram, Lancashire
Is this the birth entry for Thomas?
TWIST, THOMAS mmn BAINES
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in WARRINGTON Volume 08C Page 117
Thanks for this :)
This is looking like a different Thomas and Ellen. This Thomas and Ellen don't appear to have the right places of birth. On multiple censuses, this Ellen has a birth place of Abram which, although in Lancashire, just isn't a fit for the Ellen in my tree who was born in Haydock.
It's a good suggestion, though. Thanks :)
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I've found Ellen's death.
It's registered under the name of Helen TWISS.
Ellen was baptised with the name, Helen, so that fits.
Ellen/Helen died at Stone Row, Haydock in May of 1855.
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10th September 1849. St. Thomas (Eccleston), Prescot
Thomas TWIST, 21, bachelor, miner, Windle, William TWIST, miner
Ellen BANE, 22, spinster, Windle, William BANE, miner
Married by banns
Witnessed by John BANE and Jane TWIST
17th March 1856. St. Elphin, Warrington
Thomas TWISS, 26, widower, labourer, Bold St, William TWISS, deceased
Jane SPENCER, 21, spinster, Bold St, Edward SPENCER, labourer
Married by banns
Witnessed by George Pierpoint and Sarah Dutton
AlanBoyd (and anyone else reading),
I was wondering if I can ask your opinion on this one...
I'm now confident that the Thomas TWIST and Thomas TWISS in the above two marriages are one in the same person.
I'm wondering if the William TWIST/TWISS listed as Thomas' father is the youngest brother from the tithe maps. What do you think?
I've got two possible death certificates (not that either of them are necessarily a fit). One is in Parr for an engineer at a colliery. The other is in Newton for a collier.
Thomas TWIST/TWISS has a birth place of Newton on the 51 and 61 census.
Do you think Thomas' father is the brother, William, that I was struggling to work out?
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17th March 1856. St. Elphin, Warrington
Thomas TWISS, 26, widower, labourer, Bold St, William TWISS, deceased
Jane SPENCER, 21, spinster, Bold St, Edward SPENCER, labourer
Married by banns
Witnessed by George Pierpoint and Sarah Dutton
In the 1861 census entry that I mentioned earlier (reply #25) there is an Alice Spencer, 15, nurse, in the Twist household.
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Added: I’m having difficulty in reconciling this with the only William Twiss that I have found in the area being recorded as a labourer aged 30. Perhaps the William Twiss described below died before the census?
Added again: I found the 1839 death that you mentioned for William Twiss aged 37, so yes that would explain why the 1838 tithe record doesn’t match the 1841 census.
—-ORIGINAL POST—-
Looking again at the tithe apportionments I have realised that William Twist has a total of 18 plots: I missed 16 of these because his name has mainly been mistranscribed as TWIOT. This has enabled me to locate him more precisely.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=16.1&lat=53.47294&lon=-2.67410&layers=257&b=ESRIWorld&o=100
The lane running to the NNE just to the east of New Florida on this map view is labelled Haydock Lane (the lettering is very spaced out). Just to the NNE of New Florida you should be able to find the 'c' of "Haydock Lane". The house immediately to the SSW of the "c" with the square garden showing a pattern of paths etc is William Twist's house. The plots that he occupied include the thin strip running along the other side of the lane (and bounded by the Clipsley Brook), the long plot extending back from the house and larger plots to the W and NW of the house across the area that is riddled with Coal Pits and Old Coal Pits. I assume that these were premodern pits: literally holes in the ground dug to reach the coal seams just under the surface whose size was limited by the risk of caving in.
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All change.
In 1851 the same William Twiss (judging by name of wife and children] is present on Haydock Lane as a farmer of 11 acres. His age is 41 [dob 1810]. He is in the same position relative to neighbours as in 1841 (Twiss, Turton, Dierden, Greenall/Greenhough. On the tithe map the latter two are located at the north end of Haydock Lane, and in the 1851 sequence they are located just before Mill Fields Lane which is at the north end of Haydock Lane. All of this evidence from the censuses places William Twiss at the southern end of Haydock Lane, which fits with the 1838 tithe map.
There is a baptism: 1810 St Helens for William Twist, father Thomas Twist.
There is an 1830 Prescot marriage to an Elizabeth Leavesley which may fit (he is a collier)
The family is still on Haydock Lane in 1861.
There is a death in Dec 1869 William TWISS farmer, Haydock with a probate naming widow Elizabeth and brother James, engine driver.
(I'm just giving outlines here because I suspect that you will have all of this already. The main point is to establish that this William TWISS is the William TWIST located on the tithe map.)
Note that this William Twiss cannot be the father of Thomas Twiss, widower who married Jane Spencer in 1856 because that William Twiss is recorded as deceased.
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17th March 1856. St. Elphin, Warrington
Thomas TWISS, 26, widower, labourer, Bold St, William TWISS, deceased
Jane SPENCER, 21, spinster, Bold St, Edward SPENCER, labourer
Married by banns
Witnessed by George Pierpoint and Sarah Dutton
In the 1861 census entry that I mentioned earlier (reply #25) there is an Alice Spencer, 15, nurse, in the Twist household.
Hi Alan,
I'm back on the case! And now, thankfully, on the other side of a stinking cough/cold.
Yes - Alice SPENCER. I've not checked who Jane SPENCER's family is (beyond her father on her marriage certificate), but I'm thinking Alice SPENCER is a relative of Jane's (sister, cousin, niece..).
RT :)
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In 1851 the same William Twiss (judging by name of wife and children] is present on Haydock Lane as a farmer of 11 acres. His age is 41 [dob 1810]. He is in the same position relative to neighbours as in 1841 (Twiss, Turton, Dierden, Greenall/Greenhough. On the tithe map the latter two are located at the north end of Haydock Lane, and in the 1851 sequence they are located just before Mill Fields Lane which is at the north end of Haydock Lane. All of this evidence from the censuses places William Twiss at the southern end of Haydock Lane, which fits with the 1838 tithe map.
There is a baptism: 1810 St Helens for William Twist, father Thomas Twist.
There is an 1830 Prescot marriage to an Elizabeth Leavesley which may fit (he is a collier)
The family is still on Haydock Lane in 1861.
There is a death in Dec 1869 William TWISS farmer, Haydock with a probate naming widow Elizabeth and brother James, engine driver.
(I'm just giving outlines here because I suspect that you will have all of this already. The main point is to establish that this William TWISS is the William TWIST located on the tithe map.)
Note that this William Twiss cannot be the father of Thomas Twiss, widower who married Jane Spencer in 1856 because that William Twiss is recorded as deceased.
We’re cooking on gas here, Alan! :D
Brilliant work on the tithe maps. Thank you so much. What you've learnt and shared in this thread really is invaluable to me.
The 1810 William TWISS is a son of one of the brothers from the original group of brothers that I highlighted (Thomas b 1784).
I’m going to add some TWISS / TWIST family details to this post. I think it will be helpful and handy to anyone with an interest in any of the family names mentioned.
T = TWISS / TWIST
Thomas T b. 13/12/1753 m. Sarah KNOWLES b. 10/02/1759
I don’t have an exact place of birth for either Thomas or Sarah, but it was very likely Haydock.
Thomas and Sarah’s children:
1. William 1776 - 1782. Died age 5
2. Ellen 1778 – 1833 m. William BANE / BAINES = 9 children
3. James 1780 – 1854 m. Sarah GREENALL. I don’t know if James had been married before Sarah or if he’d only married late. He was 53 when he married Sarah. I haven’t found any children for James.
4. Mary 1782 – 1849 m. Thomas NAYLOR = 11 children
5. Thomas 1784 – 1851 m. Ann KNOWLES = 11 children
6. Ann 1787 – 1827 m. Peter DIXON = 4 children
7. Joseph 1789 – 1866 m. Mary BROWN = 13 children + 1 illegitimate child with Betty FORSHAW
8. David 1792 – 1852 m. Mary DIXON = 3 children. Widowed then m. Ann PIMBLETT
9. John 1797 – 1806. Died age 8
10. Hannah 1800 – 1871 m. Abraham SIMM = 7 children
11. William 1802 – 1839 m. Betty ROTHWELL = 3 children
I’m descended from Ellen T b. 1778 & William BANE / BAINES through my maternal line.
I’m descended from Thomas T b. 1784 & Ann KNOWLES through my paternal line.
The children of Thomas T b. 1784 & Ann KNOWLES:
1. John 1807 - 1807
2. James 1809 - 1809
3. William 1810 – 1869 m. Elizabeth LIVESLEY = 8 children
4. Ann 1812 – 1847 (my ancestor) m. Charles FORSHAW = 7 children
5. Thomas 1814 – 1836
6. David 1819 – 1867 m. Jane FAIRHURST and m. Ellen ALLNATT
7. Edmund 1821 – 1849 m. Ann HARRISON
8. Joseph 1823 - 1824
9. Catherine 1824 - 1825
10. James 1826 – 1902 m. Anne CRITCHLEY
11. Marcus 1830 – 1830
Children of William T b. 1802 and Betty Rothwell:
1. Thomas 1827 – 1892 m. Ellen BANE / BAINES and m. Jane SPENCER = 5 children
2. Jane 1831
3. William 1834
Sticking to William T b. 1802 for a moment.
I now feel I have the correct death for him:
24th October 1839, Newton, William TWISS, collier. Cause of death: “Affection of the Kidneys.” Death registered by Jonathan ROTHWELL, present at the death, Newton.
I think Jonathan ROTHWELL must be a relative of William’s widow, Betty, nee ROTHWELL. The 3 children I have for William and Betty were all born in Newton. On the 1841 census, a widowed Betty and her 3 children are living in Newton Common, which is the Haydock side of Newton. There were coal mines sitting on the boarder between Newton and Haydock, so this all feels like a fit.
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I noticed that the farm sizes in 1851 were quoted as ‘Cheshire acres’.
from an AI response about this:
A **Cheshire acre** is a historical unit of area that was used primarily in the county of Cheshire, England, and also in parts of South Lancashire, especially during the 19th century[2]. It is significantly larger than the standard (statute) acre.
- **Size:** One Cheshire acre equals **10,240 square yards** or **92,160 square feet**[1][4].
- **Comparison:** A standard acre is 4,840 square yards or 43,560 square feet, so a Cheshire acre is about **2.12 times larger** than a standard acre[1][4].
- **Dimensions:** For a rectangular plot ten times as long as it is wide, a Cheshire acre would measure **96 feet by 960 feet**, compared to the standard acre’s 66 feet by 660 feet[1].
- **Historical context:** The Cheshire acre is one of several regional or customary acres that existed in Britain before the standardisation of measurements; others included the Lancashire acre and the Irish acre[4][7].
The use of the Cheshire acre declined after the adoption of the statute acre as the legal standard in the 19th century, but references to it can still be found in historical documents and land records[2][5].
Sources
[1] Acre (Cheshire) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre_(Cheshire)
[2] Cheshire acre - Engole https://engole.info/cheshire-acre/
[3] What is a Cheshire acre? - Sizes https://www.sizes.com/units/acre-cheshire.htm
[4] Acre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acre
[5] The Customary Acre: an Indeterminate Measure By ... https://www.bahs.org.uk/AGHR/ARTICLES/23n2a5.pdf
[6] Cheshire Farms https://www.cheshirewestandchester.gov.uk/business/sites-and-premises/cheshire-farms
[7] UNTIL comparatively recently a man's wealth was measured https://www.hslc.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/110-2-Smith.pdf
[8] Cheshire acre, n. meanings, etymology and more https://www.oed.com/dictionary/cheshire-acre_n
[9] Cheshire-&-Warrington - ACRE https://acre.org.uk/cheshire-warrington/
[10] Cheshire Acre https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=71061.0
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I'm just having a mooch through Lancashire Record Office's on-line catalogue and have found a few interesting items:
3rd March 1775
Recognizance for Thomas Twist of Haydock, Collier, to abide by the Orders of the Court with regard to the unborn Bastard Child of Catherine Saxon of Haydock
Sureties: John Middleton of Windle, Husbandman and James Myers of Windle, Blacksmith
16th March 1775
Recognizance for Thomas Twist of Haydock, Collier, to abide by the Orders of the Court with regard to the unborn Bastard Child of Elizabeth Battersby of Haydock
Sureties: John Middleton of Windle, Husbandman
19th July 1775
Haydock. Order of filiation and maintenance of John, bastard child of Thomas Twist, collier, and Catherine Saxon, singlewoman
17th March 1831
Recognizance for William Twiss of Haydock [Winwick], Collier to appear at Kirkdale for a misdemeanor
Sureties: William Hughes of Ashton within Mackerfield, collier James Gutteridege of Haydock, colllier
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I didn't know that about "Cheshire Acres."
So, the TWISS' had more land than I'd originally thought.
That's a good catch. Thanks :)
Daft question, but... Where would I look to find out more about Tithes? What website are you using?
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I use thegenealogist.co.uk It is a subscription site. I don’t post images because of their terms, which is why I have to go into lengthy descriptions.
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I use thegenealogist.co.uk It is a subscription site. I don’t post images because of their terms, which is why I have to go into lengthy descriptions.
It's good to know which site you use - thanks.
I'm trying to remember if I've ever used The Genealogist before. I'm not sure if I ever have.
RT :)
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I've received the will I ordered from Lancashire Records Office.
It's the last will and testament of James TWISS b. 23/04/1780 - d. 01/05/1854
The will is dated 19/10/1850
In true family history style, it's presented more questions than it's answered but it's a fascinating document.
Most surprising to me was the equality that I found within the will. The primary executor of the will is a woman, brothers and sisters are treated equally, nieces and nephews are treated equally, and the individual who receives the largest, numbered (£) legacy, is female. I'm wondering if other wills of the time were like this or quite different.
These are the names that feature in the will, in the order they appear, and as they are described:
- Ellen HUNT, wife of Ralph HUNT of Newton, builder. Executor
- Samuel ROBINSON of St. Helens. Executor (Ellen HUNT appears to be the primary executor)
- Ellen BAINES, "my niece who now resides with me"
- James NAYLOR of Haydock, bricklayer
- Ann KNOWLES of Haydock
- Thomas TWISS, brother
- Joseph TWISS, brother
- David TWISS, brother
- Sarah FAIRHURST, sister
- Hannah SIMM, sister
- George BAINES, nephew
- David BAINES, nephew
Sarah GLOVER, niece (this name is crossed out)
There is an additional part at the the end of the will that appears to be wrote in a different hand. The part is titled, "Codicil" (an addition or supplement that explains, modifies, or revokes a will or part of one). This codicil includes the following names;
- John GREENALL
- Ellen GREENALL, his wife
- Thomas TWISS, nephew
- Thomas NAYLOR, nephew
- Betty TWISS, niece
I've included an image of the codicil because it's the only part of the will that I'm struggling to read.
This is what I can make out. Anything I'm unsure of is in BLUE:
Codicil to this my will
I further give and bequeath
all my House & Hotel H??ni??e
Stock in ?ade H????ing Stock Utensils
and Cattle & John Greenall and Ellen Greenall
his wife for their sole use for ever and
I give & my nephews Thomas Twiss and Thomas
Naylor and my niece Betty Twiss ???? the
the sum of five pounds. ?? ???? my have this twenty second day of April 1854
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Information about the names in the will:
Ellen HUNT, wife of Ralph HUNT of Newton, builder. Executor. Ellen's maiden name is GREENALL, but I'd be interested in finding out who her parents and siblings were. Ellen is living at Haydock Stocks on the 1841 census. On the same census page is Sarah BAINES, and Ann KNOWLES.
Samuel ROBINSON of St. Helens. Executor.
Ellen BAINES, "my niece who now resides with me." I frustratingly don't know who this is. There's something I haven't worked out here. Ellen appears to marry a man named John GREENALL. But the only marriage I can find shows a John GREENALL marrying an Ellen GREENALL and the ages are way out. On the 1861 Census, John and Ellen, plus 2 children, and 4 servants (GLOVER, GLOVER, BIRCHALL, and WISWELL = all connected names) are living in Haydock.
Marriage 1852 - Christ Church, Eccleston.
James NAYLOR of Haydock, bricklayer. James TWISS' sister, Mary, married Thomas NAYLOR. Is this James NAYLOR a relative of Mary and her husband? I've yet to pin this down.
Ann KNOWLES of Haydock. James TWISS' mother, Sarah, was a KNOWLES. Also, James TWISS' brother, Thomas TWISS married an Ann KNOWLES in 1806.
Thomas TWISS, brother. Thomas died before the will was read.
Joseph TWISS, brother.
David TWISS, brother. David died before the will was read.
Sarah FAIRHURST, sister. This one is mega puzzling. James TWISS didn't have a sister or sister-in-law named Sarah FAIRHURST (that I know of).
Hannah SIMM, sister. Youngest sister who married Abraham SIMM.
George BAINES, nephew. Son of sister, Ellen.
David BAINES, nephew. Son of sister, Ellen.
Sarah GLOVER, niece. Married daughter of sister, Ellen. Sarah had died before the will was read (which is why her name was crossed out).
John GREENALL. Is this the John GREENALL who I believe married Ellen BAINES?
Ellen GREENALL, his wife. Is this the niece, Ellen BAINES, who was living with James? Who are Ellen's parents? Could James be Ellen's father?
Thomas TWISS, nephew. Could this be the son of James' brother Joseph? Joseph had a son named Thomas TWISS b. 1835. Or could this be the son of James' brother, William? William had a son named Thomas b. 1827 (the Thomas who married Jane SPENCER).
Thomas NAYLOR, nephew. Sister, Mary, had a son named Thomas NAYLOR b. 1807.
Betty TWISS, niece. I'm still puzzling this one out.
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the sum of five pounds. ?? ???? my have this twenty second day of April 1854
“as witness my hand this”
-
all my House & Hotel H??ni??e
“Furniture”
(Is it really hotel?)
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the sum of five pounds. ?? ???? my have this twenty second day of April 1854
“as witness my hand this”
Many thanks :D
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all my House & Hotel H??ni??e
“Furniture”
(Is it really hotel?)
I may have misunderstood/misread words. Don't be afraid to say if you see something different to me.
It looks like 'ho' then a 't' that isn't crossed (so many of the letter t's haven't been crossed in this document) and then an 'e' and possibly a short 'l' to end. There are plenty of short d's in the document. The 'd' on some of the and's in this document are so short, the 'd' ends up looking like an 'e'.
James was living in the Waggon and Horses when the original will was wrote, when the codicil was added, and when he died. I've seen the Waggon & Horses referred to as an Inn. I'm trying to remember if I've seen it referred to as a hotel. The Ram's Head, just down the road was referred to as a hotel.
I'm pondering...
ADDED: I have found the Waggon and Horses referred to as an hotel but not while James was alive ::)
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I’d forgotten about the Waggon & Horses connection.
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all my House & Hotel H??ni??e
“Furniture”
(Is it really hotel?)
household furniture
Copy will on FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6FQS-W6J
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Hi jonwarrn,
Thanks so much. I wasn't aware there was a copy of the will on Family Search. I'm glad I now know. I'm wondering if there are other TWISS family wills available. I'm going to see if I can find anything.
I say "a copy" of the will because what's on Family Search isn't the original. It's an, I assume, contemporary copy. The copy definitely says "household furniture", not "house & hotel furniture." I'm looking at the original and I think it does most likely say "household furniture." It's the 'd' of household that was leading me astray. It looks like two separate letters in the original. I'm so glad I'm able to ask people on Roots Chat about handwriting. It can be so challenging!
Rowan Tree :)
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Hi
I think most of the Lancashire wills (they include administrations) on FamilySearch are the originals, except for the latter years just before 1858.
They have the act book entry for James (bottom right)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-89K1-C2JL
It seems that it can be downloaded.
Though these are not indexed on the main search, you can now use a full text search (you need to be logged in of course)
Here are results for Twiss and Haydock (I've restricted it to the 1800's)
https://www.familysearch.org/en/search/full-text/results?count=20&q.text=%2Btwiss%20%2Bhaydock&c.recordYear1=on&f.recordYear0=1800
If using more than one keyword put the + sign before them so you only get results when they are together in the same image. You can use quotation marks, i.e. "james twiss", and use the name box as well.
You can select a particular place or record type, though they don't always have everything under what it should be. Not every film has been indexed yet, but they seem to have done a lot.
You can only search records that are open to view at home, so for some counties there is quite a lot to find, and others very little.
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Thanks, Jon, that's really helpful :)
If the James TWISS will on Family Search isn't a contemporary copy, then I'm not sure how to describe it. It's in a different hand to the original that is held at Lancashire Records Office and it isn't signed. Whereas the original at LRO is signed ???
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Hi
It's the register copy will made by the court when the will was probated.
Among other things, there is an original will of Thomas Knowles of Haydock, 1833, which a mentions a Twiss sister and nephew
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DW53-WRV?view=fullText&keywords=Twiss%2CHaydock&lang=en&groupId=
And a copy will, fairly brief, proved in 1857, of a Matthew Twist of Parr near St Helens, with property and Twist relatives in Haydock. Who he?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DKRS-KWR?view=fullText&keywords=Haydock%2CTwist&lang=en&groupId=
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Register copy! That's the phrase I'm looking for. Thanks, Jon. Can you tell that I'm fairly unfamiliar with wills..? ;)
I'm about to check out the Thomas Knowles will that you mentioned. James TWISS' mother was a KNOWLES and he had a sibling who married a KNOWLES.
Jon, can I ask for your opinion, please? In James TWISS' will, he mentions his sister, Sarah FAIRHURST. I'm not aware of a sister or sister-in-law named Sarah FAIRHURST. Have you any suggestions or opinions on how I could work out who Sarah FAIRHURST is?
Rowan Tree :)
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Among other things, there is an original will of Thomas Knowles of Haydock, 1833, which a mentions a Twiss sister and nephew
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DW53-WRV?view=fullText&keywords=Twiss%2CHaydock&lang=en&groupId=
This is great! Straight away I can see that this is James TWISS' uncle or Sarah TWISS nee KNOWLES' youngest brother, Thomas KNOWLES.
MODIFIED: Thomas KNOWLES wrote his will on the 8th April 1833 and was buried on the 5th May 1833. He died of consumption.
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And a copy will, fairly brief, proved in 1857, of a Matthew Twist of Parr near St Helens, with property and Twist relatives in Haydock. Who he?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-DKRS-KWR?view=fullText&keywords=Haydock%2CTwist&lang=en&groupId=
I've been looking into Matthew TWIST. Matthew is definitely a TWIST and not a TWISS. The TWISS' and TWIST's may originate with the same ancestor, but I haven't proved that (yet).
I don't currently have Matthew TWIST b. 1793 in my tree, but I do have one of his brother's, Samuel TWIST b. 1776. Samuel is in my tree through marriage. He's married to Peggy/Margaret LONGBOTTOM/LONGBOTHAM. I'm a descendant of Peggy's sister, Cicely b.1789 who marries William FORSHAW.