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General => Armed Forces => Topic started by: K127 on Monday 30 June 25 17:04 BST (UK)
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Good afternoon, can anyone give me any advice how to narrow down a search for service records of a John Henry Clarke, please? There are lots of John Clarkes and I'm struggling to narrow it down to the right one.
On a marriage certificate to a Florence Gabb in Jan 1920 his occupation is Company Quartermaster Sergeant, RE (would this be Royal Engineers?) and in a wedding announcement it said that he'd taken leave from his post at Abancourt for the Woolwich wedding.
By the 1921 census he is no longer listed as being in the army (he's an omnibus conductor in Plumstead) but it does add that he was born in Madras, India in 1876. These are the only bits of information I have about him unfortunately but would love to find out more. Any help would be very gratefully received. Thank you very much.
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If he was still serving in 1920 I think you have to apply here
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson
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Ah! Thank you. I wasn't sure as he seems to have left the army (I've assumed army) by the time of the 1921 census.
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There is information on this link about records from 1920 but they have been now passed to the national archives and are in the process of being digitised so that other link I gave you is more up to date
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=652166.0
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His best man Arthur J Cocksedge was an acting Second Corporal in the Royal Engineers.
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There are medal cards for Company Quartermaster Sergeant (CQMS) John Clarke, Royal Engineers WR252535 (previously 105853). Can't see any other records for him at the moment.
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Thank you, ShaunJ! I'll go have a look at that asap. Really appreciate the help, always feel a bit clueless when navigating army records.
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Do you know the death dates for Florence and John Henry.
SS
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Softlysoftly - Florence died in Lewisham in 1927, and I have no idea what happened to John Henry after, I'm afraid. I've been trying to find any clues to help narrow things down but not coming up with much, sadly.
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Great Research ShaunJ
Spot On that's him
But as Rosie99 advised - the Records will be at the National Archives post 1920
There are 9 Ancestry Trees 3 Private
1 Public really bad has him Born in USA had 2 Children born 1910 and 1915 before he Married in 1920
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Can't see a baptism for him in India, nor can I see any mention of his father as Principal of Nizam's College in Hyderabad (as stated on the marriage record). Nizam's College was created circa 1887.
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ShaunJ, the man is a bit of a mystery, for sure. Oddly I did find a marriage record of a John Clarke in Madras (can't remember the name of the bride) in the very early 1900s and the father was listed as a John Clarke...but, who knows.
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Kath - Ancestry Hint gives a Baptism of a Possible Son William Perry Clarke born September 1915 Baptised October 1915 in Bristol to Docker John Henry Clarke and Florence Mary Tripp they Married September 1904 when Florence Mary Jane Gabb was aged 6 so obviously not theirs.
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They had a Son Charles Henry Clarke September Quarter 1922 Woolwich so when Florence died in September 1927 he had a 5 year old Son while he was at work so quickly had to find another Wife
I think he remarried in December Quarter 1927 in Hampstead to Lily I Lawrence
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Ah, thank you Alamo! I'll have a look at the Hampstead marriage. Good find, I've been trying to pin him down unsuccessfully so far.
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The son Charles Henry Clarke the son died aged 80.
Name Charles Henry Clarke
Death Age 80
Birth Date 20 Aug 1922
Registration Date Sep 2002
Registration District Sefton North
Inferred County Merseyside
Register Number 69A
District and Subdistrict 0341A
Entry Number 18
SS
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Thank you, SoftlySoftly! That'll be really helpful to trace the son in 1939, hopefully I can pin down John Henry in 1939 too.
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Thank you ALAMO, that's very cool, I'll go and check all that out asap. Appreciate your time helping on this. & it is a small world!
After uploading all the info everyone here's helped with, I've come across a mystery to do with John Henry's birth. It's not army related so sorry for clogging this board, but I wondered if anyone had any thoughts (or am I just getting confused in the heatwave).
I did find a John Clarke born in madras 12 Jul 1874. His mother is listed as Rose Anne Louisa Clarke and his father John Clarke. Rose & John (snr) have numerous other kids before "my" John Jnr, and in other baptisms John Snr is listed as John Henry so I think it must be the right one, even if the date of John Jnr's birth is a couple of years off. Except.... there are death records for John Snr in Madras in 1871 - 3 years before John Jnr's birth. And whereas in all the previous children's baptisms, John Snr's profession is to do with the police, and in his death docs he is listed as a police inspector, on John Jnr's baptismal records John Snr was down as a sailor.
So...would this be a fair guess: that Rose has somehow fudged John Jnr's baptismal record because she has had him without being married? She's put sailor because it explains why John Snr's not at the baptism? And maybe that's why John Jnr in his wedding cert put John Snr's profession as principal of a college in Hydrabad (even though there's not much to suggest he was) because maybe those are the stories he was told about his 'father' he didn't actually know? Policeman John Snr did work in Hydrabad for a few years, so maybe that would explain why that place was chosen. Anyhow. I guess we'll never know but thought I'd put what I'd found here in case more experienced eyes have a better idea of what it means. Thank you!
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John Henry Clarke, mounted police, married Rose Ann Louisa Harris in 1857 in Madras.
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Found John and Lily on 1939 Register in Smethwick Birmingham as a Fish Salesman
His Date of Birth is Copied as 20 June 1876
Are we sure that's the right John Clarke? There's a 1900 marriage in Tipton: John Clarke 24 and Lily Martin 22.
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Agreed ShaunJ
was having my doubts just now also
as with that Date of Birth he wouldn't have been 45 years old till the day after the 1921 Census on 19th June.
So ignore my Post find
Back to the Searching
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I did find a John Clarke born in madras 12 Jul 1874. His mother is listed as Rose Anne Louisa Clarke and his father John Clarke
And - maybe just coincidence - they also had a son Henry Neville Clarke who appears in the 1910 census as a Quarter Master Sergeant in the US Army.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7884/images/4449582_00887
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Findmypast Medal Details For John States he was CQMS in the Royal Engineers - Unit Railways
The Newspaper Article announcing his Marriage to Florence Gabb in 1920 states he was On Leave from Abancourt France with his Best Man -
Abancourt had a Huge Railway Station and linked to Le Havre and had Huge Warehouses stocked with the Supplies
Abancourt, Oise - Wikipedia https://share.google/WRa1atSnjWLtVy4Qf
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Florence died in Lewisham in 1927
CLARKE, FLORENCE MARY JANE
Age at Death (in years): 30
GRO Reference: 1927 S Quarter in LEWISHAM Volume 01D Page 760
From Deceased Online free index
Florence Mary Jane Clarke
Died 21 Sep 1927
Buried 27 Sep 1927, authority Greenwich
1 other burial in grave
Burial seems to be at Woolwich Cemetery?
Likely also buried at Woolwich is
John Henry Clarke
Died 18 Dec 1928
Buried 24 Dec 1928, authority Greenwich
1 other burial in grave
Could they be buried together? :-\
Maybe this death
CLARKE, JOHN HENRY
Age at Death (in years): 52
GRO Reference: 1928 D Quarter in WOOLWICH Volume 01D Page 1165
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Newspapers, December 1928 (I don't have access)
London Evening News (21st), also Lewisham Borough News (26th)
John Henry Clarke, bus conductor, living in Plumstead
Committed suicide. Inquest.
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Oh dear - suicide in December 1928
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/b4859f7f-062e-4769-9191-9147eda51ad4
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/27138095-c4f6-4d4f-a0ab-330042ccf3a4
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/c560e506-7f2c-432a-9442-b698ded128da
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One more report - mentioning widow Lily Isobel
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/b95c3d4a-5be7-4638-96e0-0bd602892998
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Brilliant Research Jon
That's him Sadly - Suicide Carbolic Acid
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Oh that is very sad! Poor Charles, the son, to have lost both mother and father by the age of 6 too.
Thank you Jon for your brilliant research skills and also for the pointer towards Woolwich Cemetery, I have family there so next time I go I'll pay my respects to John Henry too. Thank you ShaunJ for the articles, much appreciated as always.
ALAMO - you questioned whether his marriage to Florence in 1920 was his first marriage. There is a record of a John Clarke aged 25 marrying a Julia Elizabeth Walford aged 32 in Trichininopoly, India in 1903. I do wonder if it's him. It says he's a Private in the Lincoln Regiment so there's that army link (though I imagine a good portion of British people in India in that time had an army link).
Anyhow, thank you everyone for your help, I'm very grateful. I would not have got as much information on John Henry Clarke on my own.
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SS
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Lily and Charles are at 2 Elmbrook Gardens, Woolwich in the 1939 Register.
In FindMyPast the house number is mistranscribed as 63, and Charles is mistranscribed as Harris.
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=TNA%2FR39%2F0660%2F0660G%2F008&parentid=TNA%2FR39%2F0660%2F0660G%2F008%2F16
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ShaunJ - oh well done Lily for raising him! And brilliant find, thank you ShaunJ
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The marriage to Lily I Lawrence in 4Q 1927 looks very likely.
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The marriage to Lily I Lawrence in 4Q 1927 looks very likely.
You're right, I'd come back to say I'd got my dates in a muddle and to delete my previous post.
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Thank you, SoftlySoftly! That'll be really helpful to trace the son in 1939, hopefully I can pin down John Henry in 1939 too.
Kath - The 1939 Register for Charles and Lily did show Lily was a Widow which was a Clue
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Just a possibility - there was a Charles H Clarke who was a hairdresser in Litherland in the 1950s.
596 Hawthorne Road.
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Possible!
LAWRENCE, LILY ISABELLA mmnMUCKELL
GRO Reference: 1877 J Quarter in CAISTOR Volume 07A Page 695
Appears in 1921 in Hendon, single , a visitor
If she remained in the general area after 1939
Deaths Dec 1968
CLARKE LILY aged 91 GREENWICH 5B 406
SS
added, travelled to US in 1922, occupation Governess.
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1922
Charles Clarke born
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV3C-HMPG?lang=en&cid=fs_copy
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What do other's think?? re Charles Henry Clarke 1922-2002.
Known facts so far
Birth certificate
1939 war register
Death record.
I believe he stayed in the Woolwich/Greenwich area until c 1956, living with an Annie M from 1945-56.
as per electoral registers
Annie M is
ASHWORTH, ANNIE MURIEL mmn CARBERY
GRO Reference: 1911 S Quarter in CHORLTON Volume 08C Page 1257
Her dob from baptism record is 4.6.1911
She goes on to marry John Leslie Garlick Wood in 1937.
In war register she is recorded as Annie M with same dob, married but her married name scored through and CLARKE entered.
She dies as Annie Muriel Clarke 2002 with correct dob in Manchester.
Name MS Annie Muriel Clarke
Gender Female
Age 91
Birth Date 6 Apr 1911
Last Residence Sale, Cheshire, England
Postal Code District M33
Death Date 4 Jan 2002
SS
Can anyone view this article please--no date given
A. Muriel Wood
in the UK and Ireland, Newspapers.com™ Obituary Index, 1800s-current
View imageUK and Ireland, Newspapers.com™ Obituary Index, 1800s-current
View original image on Newspapers.com (may require an additional subscription).
Add or update information
Name A. Muriel Wood
Newspaper Title The Guardian
Mother
Annie Ashworth
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Clarke Annie Muriel 13 April 2002 26 June 2002 986457 PROBATE Manchester
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I think you might have the wrong Annie M
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Yeah I found him, still waiting on a mod check ::) was going to say, local parishes with online records can be a good place to get extra family names
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ShaunJ, I could well have the wrong Annie M, that's why I was asking for other's views and comments. What reasoning do you have as to the wrong Annie, I always respect every post you make.
SS
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What reasoning do you have as to the wrong Annie, I always respect every post you make.
From the probate record, it appears that John L G Wood was still with his wife Annie M in 1960.
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I think you may also have the wrong Charles H.
There is this couple in the 1939 Register in Deptford, and it may be them that you are seeing in the 1945-56 electoral registers:
Charles H Clarke 12/9/91
Annie M Clarke 21/11/92
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Thanks for taking the time to search.
SS
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I can find no evidence of a Wood/Clarke marriage
There's one in 1990 in Macclesfield: Annie M Wood to Philip A T Clarke
Philip Athol Thomas Clarke was born 1905 and died in 1992.
The 1939 Register was still in use by the NHS in 1990.
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I'm travelling overnight so haven't had a chance to look at what's been posted recently but I just wanted to thank you SS and ShaunJ for still looking. I don't know if I've got the wrong end of the stick (again!) but yesterday I googled CHC's name and his location at death and it came up with some possible info. If it's the relevant CHC it looks like he lived at the same address with a lady (I imagine his wife?) called Jean Clarke in the 2000s.
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I don't know if I've got the wrong end of the stick (again!) but yesterday I googled CHC's name and his location at death and it came up with some possible info
Do we know his location at death? "Sefton North" was the Southport area. Do you have an address?
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Oh I see it now.
Possibly living relatives so I'll publish only what FindMyPast has published:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/transcript?id=192%2FCLARKE%2FCHARLES%2FPR8%2F2829439056&tab=this
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Ah yes, that's the one. Thank you for the link.
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Jean was born in 1927
https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/02897014/officers
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Possible marriage
Marriages Jun 1948
Baldwin Jean Clarke Blackpool 10b 901
Clarke Harry Baldwin Blackpool 10b 901
SS
added, Clarke/Baldwin son born following year, appears with parents in electoral register.