RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Devon => England => Devon Lookup Requests => Topic started by: jonwicken on Monday 23 June 25 16:35 BST (UK)
-
Thomas Ellis and Eliza Denham married in June quarter 1872 in Exeter.
I am trying to find an image of the marriage to see Eliza's father's name but can't find Devon marriages online.
I believe her father was William Denham, a horsekeeper, but would like confirmation.
This is a DNA search I am on looking for the origins of the Denham family.
If anyone can help, I would be very appreciative.
Thank you,
Jon
-
It would appear that Eliza was illegitimate. In 1861 census she is with her mother Martha in workhouse. By 1871 her mother has married William Sirey in 1865 and she appears as daughter in law (step daughter) with mother and step father.
DENHAM, ELIZA JANE -
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in ST THOMAS Volume 05B Page 68
SS
-
I agree.
You can see Martha in the earlier censuses with her father Benjamin.
-
Thanks very much for this but I think there were two Eliza Denhams born in Exeter in the 1850s.
One of them was indeed the daughter of Martha who can be seen in the 1871 census here with her mother and stepfather:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/9122465?tid=5705813&pid=112699174583&queryId=b96a2556-74fd-4ba5-adeb-0e089e9edd79&_phsrc=VSl17971&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/9122465?tid=5705813&pid=112699174583&queryId=b96a2556-74fd-4ba5-adeb-0e089e9edd79&_phsrc=VSl17971&_phstart=successSource)
The other Eliza Denham born in Exeter was the daughter of William and Mary Denham who can be seen in the 1851, 1861 and 1871 census here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/DEVHO107_1868_1868-0302?pId=5711952 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8860/images/DEVHO107_1868_1868-0302?pId=5711952)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/DEVRG9_1392_1397-1077?pId=17663287 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/8767/images/DEVRG9_1392_1397-1077?pId=17663287)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/DEVRG10_2053_2056-0226?pId=9125254 (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/7619/images/DEVRG10_2053_2056-0226?pId=9125254)
This is the Eliza Denham I think was the one who married Thomas Ellis in 1872. Her birth year varies in the census throughout the 1850s, but the 1851 census shows she was a month old.
Thanks again,
Jon
-
Ok, probable death of the 1856 Eliza Jane Denham.
Name:
DENHAM, ELIZA JANE aged 65
GRO Reference: 1921 D Quarter in EXETER Volume 05B Page 90
SS
-
Ok, probable death of the 1856 Eliza Jane Denham.
Name:
DENHAM, ELIZA JANE aged 65
GRO Reference: 1921 D Quarter in EXETER Volume 05B Page 90
SS
Thanks for this. Yes that does look like her indeed. So she didn't marry.
I have not found her in the 1861, 1871, 1881, 1901 and 1921 census, proving she is not the Eliza who married Thomas Ellis:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8767/records/17631100?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/8767/records/17631100?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/9122465?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7619/records/9122465?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7572/records/3102996?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7572/records/3102996?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7814/records/11359313?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7814/records/11359313?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource)
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/63150/records/2022590?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/63150/records/2022590?tid=&pid=&queryId=2cd0d6f6-287d-44cb-a3d8-6d505955e862&_phsrc=VSl18017&_phstart=successSource)
Thanks,
Jon
-
Do you have ANY of the birth registrations of children who appear on the 1851 census with 1 month old Eliza.
SS
-
Not had a proper look for that yet.
But William Denham married Mary Clogg in 1834 in Exeter and had:
George Denham
c1841–
Amelia Denham
c1843–
William Denham
c1846–
Emma Denham
c1848–
Eliza Denham
1851–
Susanna 'Susan' Denham
c1855–
William Denham was born in Ilminster in c1799-1801 but there were two William Denhams baptised in the parish church and the Methodist chapel, so trying to work that out to see if I can find a Denham shred ancestor!
But I want to confirm from the 1872 marriage that the Eliza Denham who married Thomas Ellis was indeed the daughter of William Denham.
Kind regards,
Jon
-
In 1851 William Denham was an Ostler
1861 Horse Keeper
Baptism of Amelia his occupation --Horse Keeper
Baptism of William his occupation--Horse Keeper
Baptism of Emma Victoria DINHAM--Horse Keeper.
Baptism of Eliza Caroline DURHAM--Ostler
Are you sure he married Mary Glogg
Strange there are no Denham/Clogg births.
!841 census ref 218 16 9
William Denham 20 Horse Keeper.
SS
-
A very confusing Family;
As said earlier cant see any birth regs for children mmn Clogg
By 1871 Mary has remarried;
John Yendall 62 Head
Mary Ann Yendall 59 Wife
Henry Yendall 21 Son
Eliza Denham 19 Daughter-in-law
Susan Denham 13 Daughter-in-law
March 1868 Exeter 5b 177
John YENDAL/Mary DINHAM on same page
1881 she has a Daug Kate with her ???
-
Non Conformist - Baptist
Rhoda Clogg Densham born 6 January 1836 father William, mother Mary Norman Densham
William George Denham born 19 May 1837 of William and Mary Denham
ADDED
This family is in Bethnal Green 1861 at 6 Wellington Road. Father William a Couch Maker.
So it appears your William did not marry Mary Clogg 1835 ST. Sidwell
-
Baptism St David Exeter
Susie Kate Dinham Born 24 September 1858 bap. 3 February 1867 parents William and Mary
-------------
William Denham bap 4 April 1847 St Sidwell, Exeter - William and Mary - father Horse keeper
Amelia bap. 13 November 1844 St Sidwell - Horse keeper
Emma Virginia Denham bap 1 April 1849 Horse Keeper
Elizabeth bap 7 July 1853 - father Ostler
-
So the only way now of finding Mary's maiden name & her father's name is from her marriage in 1868 to John Yendal.
SS
-
Exactly.
I cannot find that William and Mary registered any of their children.
-
UPDATE to reply #11
The Elizabeth bap 1 July 1853 was buried 23 September 1853 age 3 months St Sidwell.
-
In 1851 William Denham was an Ostler
1861 Horse Keeper
Baptism of Amelia his occupation --Horse Keeper
Baptism of William his occupation--Horse Keeper
Baptism of Emma Victoria DINHAM--Horse Keeper.
Baptism of Eliza Caroline DURHAM--Ostler
Are you sure he married Mary Glogg
Strange there are no Denham/Clogg births.
!841 census ref 218 16 9
William Denham 20 Horse Keeper.
SS
Thank you very much for this. I wonder if you have the baptism dates at all please?
The 1734 marriage of William Denham to Mary Clogg seems to fit as it took place at St Sidwell, Exeter, which is where the 1851 census says their children were born.
-
A very confusing Family;
As said earlier cant see any birth regs for children mmn Clogg
By 1871 Mary has remarried;
John Yendall 62 Head
Mary Ann Yendall 59 Wife
Henry Yendall 21 Son
Eliza Denham 19 Daughter-in-law
Susan Denham 13 Daughter-in-law
March 1868 Exeter 5b 177
John YENDAL/Mary DINHAM on same page
1881 she has a Daug Kate with her ???
Thank you. Yes, confusing indeed!
-
Non Conformist - Baptist
Rhoda Clogg Densham born 6 January 1836 father William, mother Mary Norman Densham
William George Denham born 19 May 1837 of William and Mary Denham
ADDED
This family is in Bethnal Green 1861 at 6 Wellington Road. Father William a Couch Maker.
So it appears your William did not marry Mary Clogg 1835 ST. Sidwell
Thanks so much for this. I see what you are saying and so yes indeed William Dinham and Mary Clogg were a different couple.
So no marriage for this William Dinham and Mary.
This is how easy it is to get something wrong, so very much appreciate you looking.
-
From my earlier posting;
1881 she has a Daug Kate with her ???
Must be Susie Kate Dinham Born 24 September 1858 bap. 3 February 1867 parents William and Mary
as posted by amondg
M/C to John Yendall should solve your problem :)
-
Baptism St David Exeter
Susie Kate Dinham Born 24 September 1858 bap. 3 February 1867 parents William and Mary
-------------
William Denham bap 4 April 1847 St Sidwell, Exeter - William and Mary - father Horse keeper
Amelia bap. 13 November 1844 St Sidwell - Horse keeper
Emma Virginia Denham bap 1 April 1849 Horse Keeper
Elizabeth bap 7 July 1853 - father Ostler
Thanks so much for all these! Really helpful.
-
Exactly.
I cannot find that William and Mary registered any of their children.
It feels that not registering any of them must have been intentional. It would be interesting to know what percentage of births in the 19th century are estimated to have not been registered and how this went down in the decades to 1900.
-
From my earlier posting;
1881 she has a Daug Kate with her ???
Must be Susie Kate Dinham Born 24 September 1858 bap. 3 February 1867 parents William and Mary
as posted by amondg
M/C to John Yendall should solve your problem :)
Yes, I think so too as Susanna or Susan is with the family int he 1861 and 1871 census.
Yes, so indeed need to get that marriage of Mary Denham to John Yendall to prove it.
But I don't think Devon marriages are online.
-
jonwicken, firstly just wanted to say how pleased I was that you accepted that the William & Mary you were following were not the same couple having unregistered children during the 1840/50's. It really makes a change that posters admit going wrong (and if were all honest most of us have at some point). Are you wanting to still gather info on this family, ie baptism dates etc.
SS
-
jonwicken, firstly just wanted to say how pleased I was that you accepted that the William & Mary you were following were not the same couple having unregistered children during the 1840/50's. It really makes a change that posters admit going wrong (and if were all honest most of us have at some point). Are you wanting to still gather info on this family, ie baptism dates etc.
SS
Thank you. Yes when people don't acknowledge an error they have made, it is very frustrating indeed!
I always double check anything I read or see myself and have had to inform many people over the years they have got something wrong, and as you say often people don't like or accept it!
My head is in a spin with all these small DNA matches to Dinham and Denham families in my late father's DNA and the DNA of a distant cousin of his.
I am hoping that DNA might help me crack the origin of my my ancestor Robert Denham (c1773/4-1837) who married Mary Lepine in London in 1803. Incidentally, his details are wrong in dozens of family trees on ancestry as being born in 1779 (that Robert is actually too young and actually died as a baby) and also dying in 1838 (that is a different Robert Denham who married Mary Adams and was born in Norwich in 1771). So I see the errors and often it is impossible to correct them when across multiple trees and they become alternative facts!
I think what I really need the most now is to see the father's name on the 1872 marriage of Eliza Denham to Thomas Ellis to confirm she is William's daughter.
Then I need to see the father's name on the marriage of widow Mary Denham to John Yendall in 1868 to see if it helps me find her first marriage to William Dinham.
Thanks again for all the help.
-
In 1851 William Denham was an Ostler
1861 Horse Keeper
Baptism of Amelia his occupation --Horse Keeper Bap 13th November 1844
Baptism of William his occupation--Horse Keeper Bap 4th April 1847
Baptism of Emma Victoria DINHAM--Horse Keeper. Bap 1st April 1849
Baptism of Eliza Caroline DURHAM--Ostler Bap 6th April 1851
Elizabeth --Ostler Bap 7th July 1853
SS