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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Louth => Topic started by: GDub71 on Monday 23 June 25 14:28 BST (UK)
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Anyone able to help identify the parents of my Gt Grandmother Mary Englishby who live in Townparks, Ardee with her 2 sisters Margaret and Catherin?. The 3 sisters regularly appear in court records from 1877 to 1901, mainly concerning neighbourly disputes. It doesn't seem any of them married, althugh Mary did have 2 children; a Mary McKay and Lawrence Kane, my Gt Grandfather b.1887. It would seem from the 1901 census and death index that they were born roughly:
Mary (b.1851-56, d.1901)
Margaret (b.1850-58, d.1910)
Catherine (b.1862-65, d.1912)
There are other Englisgby's in the area, but I'm struggling to make a hard connection.
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Irish Civil Birth Records began in 1864. https://www.irishgenealogy.ie
There were other Englishby births in Ardee in the years following 1864 including the one below, could this be Catherine.
Birth of CATHARINE ENGLISHBY in 1865
Group registration ID: 7750308
SR District/Reg Area: Ardee
Child's Sex: N/R
Mother's Birth Surname: N/R (incorrect)
Born 1st October 1865, father James a Farmer, mother Mary, formerly McDonnell.
Thomas & Jane Corbally also had children in the period 1864-1870
Colin
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I note on the death records that Catherine reported the death of her sister Margaret.
Catherine's death states age 63 (1849)?
Both the death of Mary & the birth of Lawrence were reported by the Workhouse staff.
Colin
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Irish Civil Birth Records began in 1864. https://www.irishgenealogy.ie
There were other Englishby births in Ardee in the years following 1864 including the one below, could this be Catherine.
Birth of CATHARINE ENGLISHBY in 1865
Group registration ID: 7750308
SR District/Reg Area: Ardee
Child's Sex: N/R
Mother's Birth Surname: N/R (incorrect)
Born 1st October 1865, father James a Farmer, mother Mary, formerly McDonnell.
Thomas & Jane Corbally also had children in the period 1864-1870
Colin
Thi is where I run into problems, I just can't find a fit. James and Mary had several children, including a Mary in 1860, but their daughter Catherine died in Brooklyn, New York in 1941 and Mary married a Peter Hickey and had children by him at the time Lawrence was born. Are you saying that Mary died in the workhouse? I wasn't aware of that.
Thomas and Jane's family seems to be a bit later with a daughter Margaret b.1876, so I think I can rule them out as well.
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James Englishby died age 72 in 1879, death reported by Kate Englishby
Mary Englishby, widow of James a Farmer died age 83 in 1919, death reported by son Patrick.
Colin
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I note that a John Englishby (1854-1938) and his wife Anne Daly (1860-1933) had a son Laurence Englishby b.1889. They were in Meath. I'm not sure if the name Laurence was common or not then, I don't think so. A coincidence? Or maybe John is a brother to the 3 sisters?
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"This is where I run into problems, I just can't find a fit. James and Mary had several children, including a Mary in 1860, but their daughter Catherine died in Brooklyn, New York in 1941 and Mary married a Peter Hickey and had children by him at the time Lawrence was born. Are you saying that Mary died in the workhouse? I wasn't aware of that".
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The 1911 census seems to confuse things a little>
1911 Census: 28 John St. Ardee
Englishby Catherine 66 (Older than the death record the following year)
McCay Larance 21Nephew
1911 Census: 31 John St. Ardee
Englishby Margaret 80 Boarder (I thought she died in 1910)?
Mary, widow of James is in Meath in 1911, her son Patrick and his family are present.
Colin
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"This is where I run into problems, I just can't find a fit. James and Mary had several children, including a Mary in 1860, but their daughter Catherine died in Brooklyn, New York in 1941 and Mary married a Peter Hickey and had children by him at the time Lawrence was born. Are you saying that Mary died in the workhouse? I wasn't aware of that".
The 1911 census seems to confuse things a little>
1911 Census: 28 John St. Ardee
Englishby Catherine 66 (Older than the death record the following year)
McCay Larance 21Nephew
1911 Census: 31 John St. Ardee
Englishby Margaret 80 Boarder (I thought she died in 1910)?
Mary, widow of James is in Meath in 1911, her son Patrick and his family are present.
Colin
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If there's a Margaret Englishby living there aged 80 in 1911, she could be their mother maybe? She'd certainly be old enough.
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This is probably her:
Name Margaret Englishby
Event Type Death
Event Date Oct - Dec 1912
Event Place Ardee, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Oct - Dec 1912
Registration District Ardee
Age 90
Birth Year (Estimated) 1822
Volume Number 2
Seems like she aged 9 years in 1 ;)
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This is probably her:
Name Margaret Englishby
Event Type Death
Event Date Oct - Dec 1912
Event Place Ardee, Ireland
Registration Quarter and Year Oct - Dec 1912
Registration District Ardee
Age 90
Birth Year (Estimated) 1822
Volume Number 2
Seems like she aged 9 years in 1 ;)
In the 1800s and early 1900s, most people in Ireland didn’t celebrate birthdays and often didn’t really know when they were born. Their deaths - registered by someone with even flimsier knowledge - may therefore often be out by 10 years or more. That’s very common. No documentation was required to establish the deceased’s age (none probably existed) and so folk just guessed.
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There is a marriage in 1889 of a Jane Englishby, Townparks Ardee.
The witnesses don't appear to be of any help and there is no father's name but I wonder if she could be another sister.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10723/5909868.pdf
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I have this Jane (1855-1938) as the daughter of John Englishby (b.1843) and Ellen Smith (b.1845). It's hard to tell with the age discrepancies but maybe John could be a brother rather? He was born in Drogheda.
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Her parent's weren't married so her father is unlikely to be an Englishby.
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Despite the sudden increase in age, Margarets death record in 1912 states that she was a Labourers Widow. The death was in the Workhouse.
When Catherine died, also in 1912, she was noted as a Labourers daughter.
Catherine had reported her sister Margarets death in 1910, she was noted as a Labourer.
The 1901 census in Ireland was taken on 31 March, sister Mary died 6 June 1901 in the Workhouse and is noted as a Labourer, so that does not tally with the census one week earlier, if that is the sister?
1901 census: 15 in Lawnparks (Ardee Rural, Louth)
Englishby Mary 45 Head of Family Farmer
Englishby Margaret 43 Sister Nil
Englishby Catherine 39 Sister Nil
Cane Laurence 13 Son Scholar
1911 census: 28 in John Street (Ardee Town, Louth)
Englishby Catherine 66 Head of Family Louth Labourer
McCay Larance 21Nephew Louth Labourer
1911 census: 31 in John Street (Ardee Town, Louth)
Mathews Anne 69 Head of Family
Baley Mary A 10 Grand Daughter
(Birth record 1899 for Mary Ellen, father Hugh, mmn Mary Anne Bailey)
Englishby Margaret 80 Boarder
I know that the age on records are not always accurate so maybe some of this is down to transcription errors?
Colin
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I wasn't aware that they were all in the workhouse. Catherine's age jump from 1901 to 1911 is ridiculous though (39 to 66?) and I'm fairly sure it's the same person, as Larry is living with her both times. She got a court order to quit the house in 1911 as well, so they must have been incredibly poor. It's ironic that on Larry's wife's side, they were quite well off and I can trace an ancestral line from her all the way back to Brian Boru. On this Kane / Englishby side though, I can't get far at all.
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I wasn't aware that they were all in the workhouse. Catherine's age jump from 1901 to 1911 is ridiculous though (39 to 66?) and I'm fairly sure it's the same person, as Larry is living with her both times. She got a court order to quit the house in 1911 as well, so they must have been incredibly poor. It's ironic that on Larry's wife's side, they were quite well off and I can trace an ancestral line from her all the way back to Brian Boru. On this Kane / Englishby side though, I can't get far at all.
In Ireland a lot of people pushed their ages up between the 1901 & 1911 censuses. Often quite a bit. The usual reason was to qualify for the old age pension. The Old Age Pension came in across the UK and Ireland in 1909. You had to be 70 or over to qualify, and proof of age was required. In England birth certificates had started in 1837 so most applicants had that but in Ireland they didn’t start till 1864, so no-one eligible around 1911 would have a birth certificate. Alternative documentation was acceptable eg baptismal certificates, plus some marriage certificates could prove you were born over 70 years ago. Military discharge records which showed an age were also used. For other applicants a check could be made against the 1851, and where relevant, the 1841 censuses (which still existed until the 1922 fire). If your age in 1851 made you 70 now, you could qualify.
So people were aware that censuses were being used as part of the age proof arrangements, and therefore tended to raise their age in 1911 in the hope it might be checked when they claimed their pension.
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Thanks Elwyn, that does put the age discrepancies in a different light and for Catherine who was most likely in ill-health and destitute, it makes a lot of sense.
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I wasn't aware that they were all in the workhouse.
Only Mary was in the Workhouse, Catherine was in John St. and I assume so was Margaret as Catherine was present at her death but no address on record.
Colin
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I'm just posting links as it's very hard to follow without them.
Laurence's birth 1887
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1887/02549/1943400.pdf
1901 Census (the sisters were pig farmers, there is a report of Mary, Ardee Bog, being assaulted in 1900 after selling pigs and the Census has a piggery at number 15)
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Louth/Ardee_Rural/Lawnparks/1563557/
1901 Mary Englishby death (appears to be the correct Mary)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1901/05719/4613752.pdf
1910 Margaret Englishby death address is given as Ardee Bog, looking at various records I think Townparks and Ardee Bog are the same place.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1910/05436/4520397.pdf
1911 Census Catherine and Laurence
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Louth/Ardee_Town/John_Street/905791/
1912 Catherine's death
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1912/05373/4498927.pdf
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Thanks for the links, I never knew that they were pig farmers - quite a few assaults in the records though, including one with Mary's young daughter getting bashed on the head with a stone by an older male neighbour. Hard times breed hard people I guess.