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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Topic started by: Doddie on Wednesday 18 June 25 17:52 BST (UK)
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I am, by process of elimination, attempting an educated guess at which family member identified a dead body after a railway accident near Polmont in 1895. Was there any official protocols laid down for this in Scotland? I have a case I am looking at of a man who while drunk decided to walk home along a railway track. He was consequently run over by a train. It states in a newspaper report that the badly mutilated body was, "....removed to the Falkirk Police Mortuary. Last night it was identified by a relative....". I realise that it may not necessarily have been his wife or children, but if it was, were there any rules about who was allowed to do this? I do think that the prospect of seeing the terrible state of her husband's body would have been too much for his wife. They had five children - three daughters and two sons. The oldest child was Thomas who was aged sixteen at the time. The other children were, Mary (fifteen), Elizabeth (eight), Margaret (six) and John (four). It does seem that Thomas may have been tasked with the dreadful task of identifying his father's body. I do know that Thomas does seem to have had a very unsettled and troubled adulthood. Maybe this related to what he had to do as a teenager. I am aware of the fact that this is all basically conjecture and that I may receive some very short responses like, "Anybody could", but I thought I would put my query out there anyway.
Regards
Doddie
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generally it would be the closest relative available.
Normally the wife would have been asked to attend but if she was unable to do so then Thomas at 16 would have been considered an adult and asked to provide the identification.
In some cases it would have been required that two relatives provide the identification.
It would have been pretty traumatic for anyone having to do so as unlike portrayed in TV or Cinema in real life the human body does not fare well when arguing with a train.
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Who is the informant on the death certificate?
Often a newspaper report will mention who identified the body, especially if there was an inquest.
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There wouldn't be an inquest if he died in Scotland, as inquests don't exist in Scots law.
Fatal Accident Inquiries only began in 1895. Before that the investigation of sudden deaths was entirely at the discretion of the local procurator fiscal.
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There wouldn't be an inquest if he died in Scotland, as inquests don't exist in Scots law.
Fatal Accident Inquiries only began in 1895. Before that the investigation of sudden deaths was entirely at the discretion of the local procurator fiscal.
Quite true but I was using the term inquest in a general sense. There will certainly be an informant listed on the death registration and the death may be mentioned in a newspaper report so both those sources worth following up.
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I have seen a couple of Scottish death certificates involving sudden or unexplained deaths. In both cases the box for informant was completed along the lines of "Death recorded in accordance with report dated X, from John Doe, Procurator Fiscal." The records were signed by the Registrar. Not by a relative.
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I have seen a couple of Scottish death certificates involving sudden or unexplained deaths. In both cases the box for informant was completed along the lines of "Death recorded in accordance with report dated X, from John Doe, Procurator Fiscal." The records were signed by the Registrar. Not by a relative.
Where a death occurs that is reported to the Procurator Fiscal the family basically have two options regarding registering the death.
1. Visit their local Registrar and report the death with the details that they have available. If other information subsequently comes to light from the PF's enquiries then the information in the Register is corrected by means of an entry in the Register of Corrected Entries.
2. Do nothing and leave it with the PF - this results in the informant of the death being the PF and is usually recorded as quoted above.
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I feel rather foolish. I've had a look at the death certificate. The informant is James' father Thomas Graham. I thought maybe that the person identifying a dead body and the informant indicated on a death death certificate might not necessarily be one and the same. I think the tragic timeline is as follows; James' body was found at 8:40pm on Thursday the 31st of October and then taken to Falkirk Police Mortuary. The body was identified on the evening of Friday the 1st of November. The newspaper report was published on Saturday the 2nd of November. I am not sure when the actual death certificate was issued but the correction statement that accompanies it has two dates at the bottom of it - " Falkirk, 14th November 1895" followed by two names, and "Polmont, 25th November 1895" followed by the name of the registrar. Does this indicate that the death certificate may not have been not issued until between three and three-and-a-half weeks after death. Also, does it mean that it is was accepted that the person who identified the body would also be entered on the death certificate as informant?
Regards
Doddie
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I feel rather foolish. I've had a look at the death certificate. The informant is James' father Thomas Graham. I thought maybe that the person identifying a dead body and the informant indicated on a death death certificate might not necessarily be one and the same. I think the tragic timeline is as follows; James' body was found at 8:40pm on Thursday the 31st of October and then taken to Falkirk Police Mortuary. The body was identified on the evening of Friday the 1st of November. The newspaper report was published on Saturday the 2nd of November. I am not sure when the actual death certificate was issued but the correction statement that accompanies it has two dates at the bottom of it - " Falkirk, 14th November 1895" followed by two names, and "Polmont, 25th November 1895" followed by the name of the registrar. Does this indicate that the death certificate may not have been not issued until between three and three-and-a-half weeks after death. Also, does it mean that it is was accepted that the person who identified the body would also be entered on the death certificate as informant?
Regards
Doddie
First question - Yes, if left for the PF to finalise and provide the details this would have happened.
2nd Question, No. The informant is the person who reports the matter to the Registrar, whether its a relative or an official from the PF's office
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All the information from those who have replied is most helpful. I have a gut feeling that Thomas, James’ eldest child, may have been the person who identified the body. Of course, I have no way of proving this conclusively. I have been trying to find out more about his backstory ever since I discovered that he committed suicide at the age of thirty in 1909. At the time he was a barman by trade.
Regards
Doddie
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Unfortunately the paperwork that would have provided some of the answers, the Sudden Death Report, is long gone. Most police forces purged their records after several years and while the PF kept records for slightly longer they would not have survived until today.
A full sudden death report would contain
Full details of deceased and to many people’s surprise their parents.
Full details of what happened and the roles of the witnesses
List of witnesses