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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Durham => Topic started by: Elliven on Monday 16 June 25 17:24 BST (UK)
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This family was quite prominent in Dipton from the late 18th Century right up to the early 20th Century. They were bottlers of ale, stout and mineral water and also publicans in houses that appear to cover the whole village and possibly further afield starting at The Swan, The Fox and Lamb, possibly the Red Ox and The Letters.
I am seeking more information on The Swan and The Letters but I would particularly like to know where they actually lived. Many thanks.
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Christian names & birthyears please
1911 has 3,000 male Armstrong entries in Durham
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CaroleW
This is part of the great enigma! The business was started by Thomas Armstrong but I have no idea when he was born and it is possible that his son was also Thomas. The next in succession was Robert who also used Bob as a trade name on his bottles. I have no idea of his age or birthdate either and most of the trackable information on any of them is found on their bottles. The rest is all taken from licensing records which do not give much other than dates they held licences. It seems incredible that, for over a hundred years, they played such a major role in the village life and left so little of themselves. One possibility is that the main family lived in Swan House which was probably the biggest building in the village. It housed a pub (The Swan), a bottling plant and domestic housing over its 3 to 4 storeys. The pub was gone by the 1890s. That whole section of the village fell into dereliction and was totally demolished in the 1960s
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I’m not seeing any newspaper references when I search for “letters dipton” or “letters inn dipton”. Was it actually in Dipton or was it somewhere in the vicinity — Collierley for example?
The word “letters” is impossible in isolation without knowing some other details.
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Fair comment but The Letters used to be a common name for pubs. It referred to alpha and omega which were the first and last letters of the Greek Alphabet and was derived from the biblical quote of "I am the alpha and the omega saith the lord, the beginning and the end." It was a play on words and was taken to mean that the pub was the first and last house in the village - depending on your direction of travel. In Dipton, it was at the Pontop end of the village, just before High Stables and it was situated in a small stone building on the left hand side of the gate into what had been the common quarry. It was advertised for sale with several other Dipton pubs (all as separate lots) in about 1860. After this advert, it just disappeared. Thomas Armstrong was the landlord there in 1828
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Associated post here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=787109.0
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That is an old post of mine that I had completely forgotten about. In July or August of last year my computer was totally wiped out by a virus and rendered completely useless. I bought a new computer and have been reinstating my files as best I can from my old notes. I have recovered a lot of files in part but I still have a long way to go.
Unfortunately, nothing much came of this original post - other than a few dead ends. So I am still looking.
I will be visiting the County Records Office tomorrow and I will look for more information there. If I find anything significant I will post it here.
Neville
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Whellan's Directory 1894 for Dipton Parish has:
Robert Armstrong ale and porter, wine and spirit merchant, and mineral water manufacturer
[sadly no clue as to where he lived]
There are ten named public houses (note that this is the entire parish) none of which is linked to an Armstrong.
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In the previous thread, was the Armstrong in Blackhall Mill one of the dead ends? And by dead end, what do you mean: a different family, or that you couldn’t find more information?
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AlanBoyd
There were people in Lintz, Blackhall Mill and Dipton named Armstrong and all of them were members of the same family - but none of them were the main branch which was based at the bottle works in Dipton. I am looking for the Thomas Armstrong who started the business in Dipton and the Robert (Bob) Armstrong who followed him and I am trying to find out where they actually lived and to follow their direct line of descent.
I know that Robert succeeded Thomas and his early bottles even featured the TA monogram of Thomas but who came next? And what ultimately happened to finish off the business. From being a prominent brewing/bottling business, and a series of publicans, they just disappeared from the scene.
I have been able to track a number of the pubs they owned but one remains a mystery - The Letters. The last mention of it was when it, and several other pubs in the area were put up for sale in 1862. I have even identified its exact location in the village. It was a solidly built stone building and it was freehold property so it should have been a good prospect as a pub - but it just vanished.
I have no way of knowing but this 1862 sale (by private treaty, not by auction) looks like it might have been the Armstrong dynasty selling off all its assets.
Neville
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Thanks for that summary. Could you please just extend it briefly by giving approximate dates for Thomas and Robert Armstrong of Dipton.
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Possibly two Thomases in the period 1800-1850 and Robert around 1860-1880. But "Someone" was selling off their assets from 1862 onwards
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OK, thanks. Where would Robert Armstrong in my reply #7 fit do you think?
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I think the Robert Armstrong you mentioned would either be the man who sold off all the assets - or his son. This is because all the assets were sold off around 1862 and I believe that this Robert Armstrong would be presiding over what was left. I think the rise of the bigger breweries was probably the cause of them giving up bottling other peoples beer and stout especially in the 1880s and 1890s when the stone bottles were being phased out in favour of glass. The investment in new equipment would have been significant and possibly not commercially viable.
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There are a few bits and pieces on FamilySearch (full text available), including
Halmote Court Roll
Be it remembered that on the twenty sixth day of April in the year of our Lord One thousand eight hundred and ninety four came Joseph Alston Dover and Patrick McGiven both of 13 Mosley Street in the City and County of Newcastle upon Tyne Wine and Spirit Merchants out of Court at Newcastle upon Tyne before Frank Marshall Gentleman Deputy for this time only of Alfred De Bock Porter Esquire Steward and took of the Lords. First All that piece of copyhold land of an irregular shape situate at Dipton in the County of Durham. Together with the messuage or dwelling house now used as a public house and known as the " Belle Vue House " and the Shed and other outbuildings behind the same erected and built thereon as the same were formerly in the occupation of William Smith and are now in the occupation of Thomas Armstrong. Bounded on or towards the North partly by a private Road communicating with the Turnpike Road leading from Leadgate to Newcastle upon Tyne and partly by another private Road leading to the Marquis of Butes Cottages....
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-QV3H
1897, and something involving Thomas Armstrong of Blackhall Mill, wine & spirit merchant, and the Rock Permanent Benefit Building Society (starts right hand page)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-QJWM
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1R-SQCG-7?view=fullText&keywords=Thomas%20Armstrong%2CBlackhall%20Mill&lang=en&groupId=
Some earlier hits for William Smith (innkeeper) of Dipton in the manor court rolls.
And a few later ones for Belle View House, with a plan or two :-\
i.e.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CS1L-4CKB?view=fullText&keywords=Belle%20Vue%20House&lang=en&groupId=
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jonwarrn
My first thoughts were "WOW!!!"
It appears that Armstrongs were victims of a power struggle and lost most of their bottling business when James Calder & Co, Dover & Newsome Baxter Ltd and Archibald Arroll & Sons Ltd were all involved in a scramble for business in the North of England.
Armstrongs were not big business nationally but were very prosperous locally. It is hard to understand why but Calders set Dover & Newsome Baxter up to buy up Newsome Baxter brewery in Yorkshire and Dover's Wine & Spirit Merchants - with Mr Dover at the helm.
Calders and Dover & Newsome Baxter probably bought the leases to Armstrong's premises and then the writing was on the wall and Armstrongs sold off their pubs and eventually went out of business.
It is not exactly clear how it worked but Dover had served his purpose and Archibald Arroll bought his company out, sold the Newsome Baxter brewery to Calders and only the two big boys survived.
Before I followed up your post, I had no idea that these big boys were even involved - but, reading the documents in your attachments, it quickly became clear. The main Armstrong complex in Dipton was demolished in the 1960s; the Lintz Green premises were demolished around the late 1990s and the Blackhall Mill premises (bottling plant and warehouse) is still standing although I have no idea what it is used for today. Thanks for your contribution.
Elliven
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I'm taking a stroll through Dipton in 1901 and I found this sequence starting at:
RD Lanchester
ED 21
RG 13
piece 4666
folio 216
page 29
schedule 162
162 Belle Vue Ho. (Hopper's Nook)
William Dorward, 30, manager, beer store, Sunderland
163 Hoppers Nook, a retired coalminer
164-167, 4 households, inc. 3 miners all with the address:
Pop Factory Yard, (Hopper's Nook)
In 1911 William Dorward is a brewery mineral water foreman in Alnwick. His eldest child is aged 7 born Darlington, so the family must have left Dipton ~1904
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The enumeration sequence in 1901 is:
Delight Row
Cross Delight Row
Front Street
Front Street (Maddisons Row)
Front Street (Stanfords? Bldgs)
Fox Inn
Todds Bldgs
Williamsons Bldgs
Dipton House
Wilkinsons Bldgs
Rose Cottages (Front St)
Wheatleys Blgs
Opp Fox Inn (Front St)
Bute Arms
Wesley Tce
Front St
Johnson's Avenue
Stanfords Bldgs (back) (Hoppers Nook)
Marquis Houses
Hoppers Nook (Marquis Houses)
Belle Vue Ho. (Hopper's Nook)
Pop Factory Yard,(Hopper's Nook)
Weed Park (Collierley) 31
Collierley Farm 31
Low Collierley Cottage 32
Low Collierley Farm 32
[end of Dipton, St John Parish, Flint Hall follows on]
This is a 1950s/1960s map of the area overlaid on a modern street map (slide the slider to see the modern map). I realise this is much later than the period of interest, but it seems to be the best source of place names for Dipton, and certainly many of the 1901 names are still there at that time.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.4&lat=54.88142&lon=-1.75583&layers=258&b=osm&o=100
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Thank you this is the only map I have ever seen with house/street names in the Hoppers Nook area. It also shows Bute Cottages which appear in jonwarrn's contribution so it is very helpful even if it is relatively recent. I live within a quarter of a mile of Hoppers Nook so it has helped me to understand a lot more about it. The area was demolished about 20 years before I moved here.
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I was looking for old photos of Dipton and one of your previous threads came up — probably worth linking from here.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=821197.0
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Also a picture of one of the bottles that you have mentioned.
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I’ve just rediscovered the Thomas Armstrong, beer retailer, living in Dipton in 1891, as found in your earlier thread linked above in reply#5. This is the family with the son Robert, baptised 1868 Throckley.
Where does this family fit, in your opinion? Why is this not the Armstrongs of Dipton at this time? And if it is, have you tried to trace them backwards?
This is the 1891 enumerator’s sequence:
Storfords Houses
Hopper's Nook
Marquis Houses
Gardeners(?) House
Smith’s Houses
Johnson Houses
Front Street, Fox Inn
Front Street
Todd's Houses
Wilkinson Houses
There are six households at Smith’s Houses, the first listed being Thomas Armstrong, 48, born Burnopfield.
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Whellan's Directory 1894 for Dipton Parish has:
Robert Armstrong ale and porter, wine and spirit merchant, and mineral water manufacturer
[sadly no clue as to where he lived]
AlanBoyd
The Halmote Rolls indicate that the Armstrongs held the licence for a pub in the same building as the bottling plant ie Belle Vue House. This must have been The Swan which they held by copyhold and they surrendered when it was sold to Dover & Newsome Baxter Ltd. They (D&NB) seem to have put their own manager in and he appears to have stayed on when it was taken over by Archibald Arroll and Sons who sold it to Calder & Co. Meanwhile Dover & Newsome Baxter went into liquidation and eventually the whole operation closed down.
There is no way I can prove it but I believe that the whole of Armstrong's business was reduced in scale and operated from the Blackhall Mill site. It would have been a lot easier if the family imagination extended beyond Thomas and Robert when naming their sons!