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Research in Other Countries => Australia => Topic started by: Tgapitbull on Sunday 15 June 25 02:41 BST (UK)
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Mariners and Ship in Australian Waters has the following record;
"LIGURIA" of Liverpool - London to Sydney, arriving 7 August 1886
Commander Robt Studdert
Passengers:
OLIVER, Johno
OLIVER, Robt
OLIVER, Agnes
OLIVER, James
OLIVER, Agnes
(No other details of the OLIVER family is stated, other than they were passengers)
Grateful if some kind person is able to assist with additional details; ie age, occupation and where from?
I have checked Trove for passenger list details.
I am particularly interested in the Robt Oliver.
Background info:
I am looking to rule him in or out of my research.
I am researching a Robert OLIVER who served in the NZ Army (8/1816) in WW1 and was KIA on 7 August 1915 in the Dardanelles.
I know very little else about him. Unable to confirm his DOB of 3 June 1879, Liverpool. His military file states "Legal NOK - no known relatives". "Nominated NOK - Norah (Honora or Nora) Bridget Rodgers 111 Leeds [Leith] st, Dunedin, NZ" - unable to find any connection.
Any assistance appreciated with the passenger list details.
TPB
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Robert Oliver is age 7 on the passenger list. No other information except that the family is recorded as "English".
Parents are John (a miner) and Agnes (both 34)
Link to page in passengerlist
https://prov.vic.gov.au/archive/3B79C1EF-F96C-11E9-AE98-23026169CE7C?image=169
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Many thanks Neale1961. The information is very much appreciated.
I will now research the family to see what I can find on them in Sydney.
Thanks again
TPB
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On Ancestry, the original nominal roll NZ 1914-1915 has Robert Oliver NOK Mrs H Rogers (sister) and she was living at 111 Leith St Dunedin. Perhaps this was his sister Agnes or another sister born after they arrived Sydney.
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If you have access to Ancestry this tree looks to be the family who travelled in 1886.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/119516198/person/202192603703/facts
You mention a very specific dob of 3.6.1879, Liverpool. May I askwhere this originates from.
SS
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Thanks aahume for responding.
Honora Rodgers' parents were Henry McCarthy/Margaret McMullen [various spls] who married in NZ in 1885. Henry age 28 b County Limerick & Margaret age 24 b County Antrim, Ireland. A Bridget McMullain (sister?) was a witness to the marriage.
A Bridget [aka Beatrice] McMullan married George Magorian in Dunedin in 1897/4478. In 1899 Bridget and George were living at Macandrew Rd, Sth Dunedin. In 1910 Mrs Bridget Magorian was at the Lee Stream Hotel (Outram) and in 1911 and 1914 Bridget was living at 43 Macandrew Rd, Sth Dunedin.
To date I have been unable to find any connection between Honora/Bridget and Robert.
I am continuing to look into the Sydney angle.
TPB
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Thanks SS for your reply.
I have a subscription only to NZ/Australia records so unable to access the link you provide. However I hope to go into the local library and will look this up.
Robert Oliver's DOB came from his military file - will post link shortly.
Link is
https://ndhadeliver.natlib.govt.nz/delivery/DeliveryManagerServlet?dps_pid+IE10079691
Hope the above link works as typed in as 'The Collections Archives NZ' website gave an error message a short time ago.
TPB
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If you have access to Ancestry this tree looks to be the family who travelled in 1886.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/119516198/person/202192603703/facts
This link may work for you.
https://www.ancestry.com.au/family-tree/person/tree/17400331/person/505708614/facts
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Thanks Neale1961 for the link which worked. So not "my" Robert Oliver. I can now rule him out.
Back to the drawing board.
Thanks for reading my posting and especially those who provided info.
TPB
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FindMyPast has details of the Liguria arriving Aug 1886.
An original document shows the family listed with only their names recorded - John, Rob't, Agnes, James, Agnes.
FindMyPast transcripts only (no sight of the original) has details of -
Robert 23, Robert 7, John 34, John 27, James 3, Agnes 34, Agnes 31, Agnes 3
However, checking the original passenger list I cannot find 2 John Olivers or 2 Agnes Olivers to account for the 2 transcriptions?
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Thanks hanes teulu for checking FindMyPast. I can now exclude this Robert Oliver.
Back to the drawing board - the common names don't help though!
TPB
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TPB, is it a possibility that Robert was born in the Liverpool area of Sydney in NSW. There is a birth there of a Robert in 1879 with parents Henry & Mary.
SS
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SS, Hadn't thought about this - you could well be correct!
Have you been able to find Mary's maiden name?
Will look into this later today.
Many thanks
TPB
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Do not believe it's your man. Henry married Mary Marsden 1865 in Carcoar, they had many children registered in the same registration district including Robert M.
Robert Milburn Oliver
1879–1943
Birth 08.04. 1879 • Carcoar, New South Wales, Australia.
Death 27 .11. 1943 • Blayney, New South Wales, Australia.
SS
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Had you found
Honora Bridget Mcarthy (of 111 Leith St) married Charles Rodgers, 1908.
Honora Bridget Rodgers died 1974, date of birth 10 Aug 1888
Honora Bridget McCarthy, born 1888 to Henry and Margaret
As you say, what's the connection?
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19150903.2.29?end_date=31-12-1918&items_per_page=10&page=10&phrase=2&query=robert+oliver&snippet=true&sort_by=byDA&start_date=01-01-1880&title=AHCOG%2CBH%2CCL%2CCROMARG%2CDUNST%2CESD%2CLCM%2CLCP%2CLWM%2CMIC%2CMTBM%2CNOT%2COAM%2CODT%2COW%2CTT
Connection established?
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https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/newspapers/ESD19150903.2.29?end_date=31-12-1918&items_per_page=10&page=10&phrase=2&query=robert+oliver&snippet=true&sort_by=byDA&start_date=01-01-1880&title=AHCOG%2CBH%2CCL%2CCROMARG%2CDUNST%2CESD%2CLCM%2CLCP%2CLWM%2CMIC%2CMTBM%2CNOT%2COAM%2CODT%2COW%2CTT
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Thanks SS for checking. I can rule out Robert Milburn Oliver.
Thanks hanes teulu for your postings. I have come across the info. The Norah mentioned in the newspaper articles is the same person as Honora Bridget Rodgers nee McCarthy.
Will keep looking for a possible connection.
Have found in Mariners & Ships in Australian Waters an "R Oliver" on the ship "Matunga" PNG to Sydney 25 Oct 1910 and again PNG via Brisbane to Sydney 5 Dec 1910. He is described as Chief Cook age 31, from Liverpool, Crew.
Also on "Fiona" on 27 Nov 1907 [1st Cook] and 24 Jan 1910 Fiji to Sydney [Chief Cook]. Found no record of R Oliver from Jan 1911 on the "Matunga".
Thanks again
TPB
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Thanks hanes teulu for your postings. I have come across the info. The Norah mentioned in the newspaper articles is the same person as Honora Bridget Rodgers nee McCarthy.
Will keep looking for a possible connection.
Thanks again
TPB
Can you clarify "possible connection"? The newspaper item describes Honora as his "sister" - do you agree/accept that?
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hanes teulu, I have learnt the hard way never to assume and to verify information.
In respect of Honora, her parents were Henry McCarthy and Margaret McMullen married in NZ in 1885. Both were from Ireland. Henry and Margaret had 4 children born between 1886 - 1890 in NZ. I could not find anything that suggested that either Henry or Margaret had been married or had children before arriving in NZ; so no 'half siblings'. Two of Honora's siblings died young, ie 18 yrs and 20yrs.
Robert Oliver was born in Liverpool according to his military file. I have checked the Lancashire BDM, Lancashire OPC, Ancestry, FindMyPast, Familysearch and contacted Liverpool & SW Lancashire Family History Group - with no success finding Robert's birth.
On this basis I don't agree/accept that Honora was Robert's 'sister'.
I do however wonder if the 'connection' could be through her husband Charles. According to Robert's military file Robert had an Anchor tattoo on his left arm which could suggest that he might have been a mariner at some stage? I do know that Charles in 1911 was a fireman on the ss 'Flora' and was employed by the Union Steamship Company. I have checked with the USS Coy and they could not find any records of a Robert Oliver.
It is possible that Robert knew Charles? As Charles could volunteer/be called up for military service, this is how Honara was Robert's 'Nominated NOK'. Charles was attested at Trentham on 5 May 1916 for WW1.
Have to dash!
Thanks for your interest.
TPB
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hanes teulu, I have learnt the hard way never to assume and to verify information.
In respect of Honora, her parents were Henry McCarthy and Margaret McMullen married in NZ in 1885. Both were from Ireland. Henry and Margaret had 4 children born between 1886 - 1890 in NZ. I could not find anything that suggested that either Henry or Margaret had been married or had children before arriving in NZ; so no 'half siblings'. Two of Honora's siblings died young, ie 18 yrs and 20yrs.
Robert Oliver was born in Liverpool according to his military file. I have checked the Lancashire BDM, Lancashire OPC, Ancestry, FindMyPast, Familysearch and contacted Liverpool & SW Lancashire Family History Group - with no success finding Robert's birth.
On this basis I don't agree/accept that Honora was Robert's 'sister'.
I do however wonder if the 'connection' could be through her husband Charles. According to Robert's military file Robert had an Anchor tattoo on his left arm which could suggest that he might have been a mariner at some stage? I do know that Charles in 1911 was a fireman on the ss 'Flora' and was employed by the Union Steamship Company. I have checked with the USS Coy and they could not find any records of a Robert Oliver.
It is possible that Robert knew Charles? As Charles could volunteer/be called up for military service, this is how Honara was Robert's 'Nominated NOK'. Charles was attested at Trentham on 5 May 1916 for WW1.
Have to dash!
Thanks for your interest.
TPB
While the papers are a wonderful source, it's a truism "that you shouldn't believe everything you read ......". There remains a question mark over the claimed relationship and difficult to take forward.
I too wondered about Charles' and Robert's possible army links, having picked up Charles Rodgers' " ... late sapper No. 22,108 ..." obit in the Otago Daily Times, 13 Dec 1934. But again so difficult to take forward.
Best of luck with the search.
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Can I throw in a curved ball and lead us down a rabbit hole. Details know about Robert Oliver. Born 3rd june 1879, Liverpool. Parents-? Death known.
This man below I have tried to follow from birth but can only find in 1881 census.
Robert Clarkson born 3rd June 1879, Liverpool. Parents Robert (Engineer) & Janet nee' Louden.
Baptism image on Anc.
1881 census ref 3599 17 28
Robert Clarkson 36 Head
Janet Clarkson 34 Wife
Andrew Clarkson 16 Son
David Clarkson 11 Son reads born Liverpool--incorrect as below.
Richard ? Clarkson 1 Son Image distorted but reads Robert--Born Liverpool
CLARKSON ANDREW mmn LOUDEN Male 1865 644 / 7 / 395 Milton
CLARKSON DAVID LOUDON mmn LOUDON Male 1870 644 / 10 / 349 Hutchesontown
CLARKSON, ROBERT mmn LOUDEN
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 08B Page 7
Did father die and mother remarried to an Oliver and a name change took place?
SS
added- possible 1891 census ref 2903 27 47
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After your previous posting, it got me thinking!
I have checked the NZ DIA Birth Index and not found a birth for Charles Rodgers but he could be 'Rogers' - one born in 1883 and two in 1885; one of the two has no father recorded.
I have sent an Ancestry msg to an account holder who has a Charles Rodgers in a family tree to see if they can tell me anything further and await their response.
The 1908 ER for Dunedin has a Charles Rodgers, Margaret and a John Frederick Rodgers, Butcher all living at the same address. I have checked a couple of Ancestry trees of John Frederick Rodgers and none have a Charles Rodgers. However I did notice that John and Margaret's youngest son Daniel b 1880 was KIA on 8 August 1915.
Further research to undertake on Charles.
Thanks for helping with my search.
TPB
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Charles RODGER's attestation states born Port Chalmers. 27/10/1883.
I wonder whether the others in your E Roll listing above were also.
Sue
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Thanks Sue, however not been able to confirm date/place of birth for Charles.
The Charles, Margaret and John Rodgers in 1908 ER were living at Baldwin Court, North East Valley, Dunedin.
In 1893 John and Margaret were living in Duncan street, Dunedin.
TPB
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Reply #21 - thanks SS. Worth taking a look at.
Had a look at the 1881 census record and also 1891.
Found Andrew Clarkson b 4/3/1865 Glasgow; married 20/7/1890 Kensington, Lanc, Scotland and died May 1897 Liverpool. At time of marriage he was living at 22 Butler st, Liverpool. Married Ellen Hinchliff Jackson. Andrew was a Mariner.
Found a possible additional child; Mary Wotherspoon Clarkson b 1867 and died 1938, Glasgow. She did Mary.
Not sure about the 1891 census as there is a Jane, Single age 16yrs - I have yet to find her elsewhere, so have a question mark about this record.
David's [born 1870] middle name appears to be Loudon.
Will call it a day as it is getting late. Will be back to this tomorrow.
Thanks again.
TPB
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There was another daughter born 1877, Liverpool mmn LONDON. Died same year, baptism records parents Robert & Janet.
Still does not shed any further light on Robert though.
SS
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Still does not find Robert jnr but his father died 1892. Still a chance Janet remarried.
SS
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Thanks for Robert's death cert.
Robert and Janet's daughter, Mary Wotherspoon Clarkson appears to have married on 8 October 1889 in Milton, Glasgow to Thomas Port. Mary Port appears to have died in 1938 in Glasgow (info from Ancestry family trees and not confirmed. I note that some contain errors.
It is possible that Janet moved back to Scotland and this is why she does not appear on the 1891 census record (if the same family?) (2903 27 47). If she did remarry then likely to be in Scotland.
I have contacted several people who have these names in their family trees - none have been able to assist.
Will keep looking to see what turns up.
Thanks again.
TPB
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In the 1901 Scotland census, Registration District of Cadder Eastern District, address 5 Brown Land there is a Janet Clarkson age 54 bc 1847 and a son David Clarkson age 31yrs, Iron Work Labourer
(ED 3 Sch 179 Line 14) which seem to fit age and date wise.
Janet's parents; David Loudon died 9 June 1895 and Mary Loudon died 20 November 1897. Both of 410 St Georges Road, Glasgow. Probate granted to daughter Annie Loudon or Wood.
Checked the CLIP Index [Crew List Index Project] and found nothing there.
Spent a good portion of the day searching and still no closer to finding Robert.
TPB
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Just a quick question and no real help, but I'm curious to know if Charles RODGER's death print out/certificate details correlate with his attestation details.
Are you satisfied with these aspects of his background?
Sue
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Further searching, I have come across the following;
Charles RODGERS was born Charles PENNY [1883/19635] to Margaret Penny nee Walsh and Samuel PENNY
Margaret Walsh married Samuel Penny [1882/753]. Samuel Penny died on 8 November 1886 age 29 years. At the time of his death he was living at Mary Street, Port Chalmers. He is buried in the Port cemetery.
Margaret Penny nee Walsh remarried in 1892/1686 to John Frederick Rodgers.
Charles has assumed his stepfathers surname.
In 1893 John Frederick Rodgers, Butcher and Margaret were living in Duncan street, Dunedin.
TPB
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Well, that's a very good elimination of one element in my opinion.
Namely Robert OLIVER and Charles RODGERS seem not to have shared a parent, whether by adoption, or by previous or subsequent marriage of such parents.
So they seem not to be siblings in any degree.
I think ::)
Sue
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Based on solid records, it turns out Janet didn’t remarry after 1892. That early death date was a red herring—Robert Sr. lived until about 1928, and Janet stayed his wife until her death in 1933. She’s buried under the name “Janet Roberts Henderson” in Omaha. So Robert Jr. kept the Henderson surname, which helps! You’ll find him born in 1892 in Cumbernauld, moved with the family to Illinois, then Nebraska, and buried in the same cemetery as his mom: Westlawn-Hillcrest in Omaha.
FamilySearch: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L1VR-VJH
Find a Grave: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/105765290/robert-henderson
YourRoots: https://yourroots.com/search-record/state-province-county
Still does not find Robert jnr but his father died 1892. Still a chance Janet remarried.
SS
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Sorry if I’m missing something here but the 1892 death was for Robert CLARKSON.
SS
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carolgenealogy1970 - thanks for your posting, however I am confused!
Robert Clarkson Jnr was born in 1879 in Liverpool, England.
Could you please clarify.
TPB
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Further to Reply #17.
After trawling through records on the Mariners & Ships in Australian Waters database for the ss 'Fiona', the 'R Oliver' who appears on ships passenger/crew lists around 1907 is Ralph Oliver.
I also checked the Australian ER for 1913 St Leonards, Sydney, NSW which has a Ralph Oliver and Dorrillia Oliver living at 35 Edward street. Ralph is a Cook.
So I can now exclude this 'R Oliver'.
TPB
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Based on solid records, it turns out Janet didn’t remarry after 1892. That early death date was a red herring—Robert Sr. lived until about 1928, and Janet stayed his wife until her death in 1933. She’s buried under the name “Janet Roberts Henderson” in Omaha. So Robert Jr. kept the Henderson surname, which helps! You’ll find him born in 1892 in Cumbernauld, moved with the family to Illinois, then Nebraska, and buried in the same cemetery as his mom: Westlawn-Hillcrest in Omaha.
FamilySearch: https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/L1VR-VJH
Find a Grave: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/105765290/robert-henderson
YourRoots: https://yourroots.com/search-record/state-province-county
Still does not find Robert jnr but his father died 1892. Still a chance Janet remarried.
SS
Any reason for NOT responding to our queries.
SS