RootsChat.Com
Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Laois (Queens) => Topic started by: Rakiura John on Sunday 01 June 25 05:34 BST (UK)
-
Borris-in-Ossory RC parish has numerous baptisms in c1850's/1860's with the parents' abode entered as "Liberty". Father's names include John Monaghan, Kyran Phelan, Andrew Phelan - who all had a connection with Sentryhill townland in Aghaboe civil parish. Does anyone know what Liberty actually was - a farm?, a village?, a local name for Sentryhill?
regards
John
-
For what its worth, Borris-in-Ossory RC Baptisms [Microfilm 05014 / 11] also has numerous abodes at a place named "VAGÉ", also not found. Not relevant to my query about "LIBERTY" but might perhaps give a clue as to how these abode placenames were being informed.
-
Vage means no address - itinerant.
-
Borris-in-Ossory RC parish has numerous baptisms in c1850's/1860's with the parents' abode entered as "Liberty". Father's names include John Monaghan, Kyran Phelan, Andrew Phelan - who all had a connection with Sentryhill townland in Aghaboe civil parish. Does anyone know what Liberty actually was - a farm?, a village?, a local name for Sentryhill?
regards
John
Liberty is another description for the townparks.
-
Thanks Wexflyer.
Townparks townland lays to the north & south of the town of Borris-in-Ossory, with the southern portion adjoining Sentryhill, so the area fits nicely.
I've found some post-1864 births (for both Monohan & Phelan/Whelan) for which the baptisms give the abode as "Liberty" but the relevant birth regn's give the abode as "Touereigh". Are you aware of any portion of Townparks which might go by that name? I've looked at the Griffith Valn map but it doesn't show any sub-townlands or farm names. Perhaps you know of other historical maps worth looking at?
I took Touereigh as being a rendering of Tooreagh townland in Aghaboe cp but on reflection it's too far away from the Townparks to be regarded as the "same" abode.
-
Isn't Tooreagh an exclave of Aghaboe? And in probably a different local registration district from Borris-In-Ossory? It could be in a different Catholic parish also - Rathdowney? In which case baptisms should not be in Boris parish register. [Note - I am not familiar with the locality, just going by maps].
-
Yes, that's why I now think Tooreagh townland isn't the "Touereigh" stated in the birth regns.
Below are some of the Birth regns (all Donaghmore District), the Baptism records for which give the parents' residences as Liberty.
-
When was Griffith's Valuation for the area published?
Can it shed light on where these families were living (officially).
I would also point out that it was not unknown for a family to be known as of location X, sometimes for hundreds of years, but officially, per the OS, they lived in location Y.
-
I also am not familiar with the area but think things might have gotten mixed up here.
You have baptisms which mention "Liberty" yet the children's births record the residence as Touereigh (Donaghmore registration district, subdistrict Borris in Ossory).
There is a townland listed in Seanruad as Tooreagh in Aghaboe civil parish (in Donaghmore Poor Law Union/Registration District). This is in the correct area for those birth registrations (and I can find no other townland in all of Co.Laois that comes even close to Touereigh).
Tooreagh townland-
https://www.townlands.ie/laois/clarmallagh/aghaboe/grantstown/tooreagh/
I think this is what has caused some of the confusion-
Liberty is another description for the townparks.
It's not uncommon in rural Ireland to find places which are not townlands listed in church records.
-
Take the births to Kyran Phelan & Anne Murphy as a case study.
All children were Baptised in Borris-in-Ossory RC Parish [Film 5014/11].
All Birth Regn's were in Borris-in-Ossory Regn District, Union of Donaghmore, Queen's Co [therefore IrishGeneaology.ie has the Regn's under Donaghmore].
The town of Borris-in-Ossory, the Townparks townland surrounding that town, the nearby Sentryhill townland, and the “distant” Tooreagh townland, are all located within Aghaboe civil parish and within the Union of Donaghmore. Therefore none of these places can be eliminated by using Civil Regn location.
1901 & 1911 Census has the family in Sentryhill townland.
The family Headstone is in Knockaroo Cemetery, near Borris-in-Ossory town.
1863 son Patrick – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; pre Civil Birth Regn
1864 son Joseph – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “Liberty”
1865 dau Mary – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “CentryHill” [sic]
1867 dau Ann – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “Touereigh”
1868 dau Honora – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “Liberty”
1870 son Kyran – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “Toaureigh”
1875 dau Teresa – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty Borris”; Birth Regn not found
The reference to “Liberty Borris” in Teresa's 1875 Bap is revealing – it supports Liberty being in the neighbourhood of Borris township, e.g. the Townparks surrounding the town. It also suggests the family's Residence was, at least in Teresa's case, being given due consideration and not just being entered pro-forma by the Priest.
The father is shown as “Farmer” in all Birth Regn's. This suggests a static abode (as is evidenced by all Baps having his residence as “Liberty”), as opposed to say a “Farm Labourer” who might move about.
The fact that the Birth Regn Residence jumps from Liberty – Sentryhill – Touereigh – Liberty – Touareigh, is the perflexing factor. In all cases the Informant was the father, so it's not a case of different Informants having different perspectives on a location name.
As regards Tooreagh townland, it is a small area, some 24 acres. Griffiths Valn (1850) has 1 Occupier (Jeremiah Nolan) occupying the total area – Land only (i.e. no house), which further argues against Tooreagh being the family's dwelling place “Touereigh”.
This would seem to be a case of someone with local knowledge (or access to historical maps) eventually coming across this post and coming to the rescue.
Thanks for input so far.
John
-
The Down Survey map of the parish (1655) can be seen at
http://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php#bm=Upper+Ossory&c=Laois+(Queens)&p=Aghavoe (http://downsurvey.tchpc.tcd.ie/down-survey-maps.php#bm=Upper+Ossory&c=Laois+(Queens)&p=Aghavoe)
-
Take the births to Kyran Phelan & Anne Murphy as a case study.
1863 son Patrick – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; pre Civil Birth Regn
1864 son Joseph – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “Liberty”
1865 dau Mary – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “CentryHill” [sic]
1867 dau Ann – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “Touereigh”
1868 dau Honora – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “Liberty”
1870 son Kyran – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty”; Birth Regn has birthplace & father's dwelling place as “Toaureigh”
1875 dau Teresa – Bap's Residence column has “Liberty Borris”; Birth Regn not found
John
I have only checked the first registration from this list, that of Joseph in 1864.
The birth is registered as Joseph Whelan, not Phelan.
Is it that the two surnames are to be taken as the same?
Note that RootsIreland, which is usually good at this, does not seem to treat Whelan and Phelan as interchangeable.
-
Andrew Phelan of Sentryhill was murdered (per newspaper reports) in 1894.
Death regsitration
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1894/05949/4690573.pdf (https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1894/05949/4690573.pdf)
Note that Union is now ROSCREA.
-
I've only ever come across Liberty/Liberties in Ireland in connection with the Liberties of Coleraine.
'The "liberties of Coleraine" refers to a specific barony (a medieval territorial division) and a historical area in County Londonderry, Northern Ireland. It's not a general term about freedom or autonomy but rather a geographical and historical designation. Specifically, the North East Liberties of Coleraine comprises the lands east of the River Bann, which were governed as part of the Coleraine town.
Here's a more detailed explanation:
Barony:
In the medieval era, a barony was a territorial division often associated with a lord or manor.
North East Liberties of Coleraine:
This barony is located in County Londonderry, east of the River Bann.
Geographic Context:
The term refers to the lands that were historically governed as part of the town of Coleraine, even though they were physically on the opposite side of the river.
Historical Significance:
This area was part of a larger medieval territory known as the "Route" and later became the barony of North East Liberties of Coleraine.
North East Liberties of Coleraine - Wikipedia
The North East Liberties of Coleraine (named after Coleraine town) is a barony in County Londonderry, Northern Ireland. It borders...
Wikipedia
North East Liberties of Coleraine - Wikishire
9 Mar 2018 — The North East Liberties of Coleraine are those parts of County Londonderry which lie to the east of the River Bann, and...
Wikishire
The North East Liberties of Coleraine are those parts of County Londonderry which lie to the east of the River Bann, and they constitute a barony of that county. They are the lands across the Bann which were governed as appurtenant to Coleraine, a town which stands mainly on the river's west bank.9 Mar 2018' from Wiki
There is also the Liberties in Dublin
The Liberties' name originates from areas that were independent of the usual city government due to special jurisdictions and manorial rights.
In studying old land tenure forms back in the day, connected with a law degree, a liberty was one of these
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_(division)
The general populace was able to move about more freely on the liberties surrounding a town
-
Wexflyer, hadn't come across that 1894 death of Andrew Phelan. Thanks for that.
regards
John
-
Wexflyer, Phelan/Whelan tends to be interchangeable - not sure if this is due to record-keepers having their own preferences or because the subject person is just casual about which name they use. I've been chasing Phelans/Whelans for many years now and have found some families rigidly follow their particular version of the surname while others chop and change, sometimes within the same document.
Whether the names are associated in reality, I don't know.
The IrishGeneaology search engine will bring up both names if you search either name, so they are taking a pragmatic approach.
FamilySearch on the other hand, while it will bring up many variant spellings within the Whelan name, it won't treat Phelan as a variant; and vice versa.
The reality is to treat them as interchangeable.
-
shanreagh, the fact that the area surrounding the town of Borris-in-Ossory is named "Townparks" might suggest it's tenure allowed some special treatment in former times. If the area was locally known as the liberty, that may well have some historical basis. We just haven't been able to find any background information regarding this area so far.
Thanks for your input.
John
-
The FamilySearch Catalogue has the "Valuation Revision Books" for the area I'm concerned with. See the screenshots below. They are available on microfilm. Does this mean I can view them by going to a LDS Library near me? (never done this before).
-
Just to add, I also found a couple of references to "The Liberty" in newspapers.
The first was a death notice for a Joseph Whelan who died much more recently in 1998 and the exact reference was:
WHELAN (The Liberty), Sentryhill, Borris-in-Ossory, Co. Laois
The second was much older, a report about a Special Sessions at Borris-in-Ossory in the Midlands County Advertiser of 10 May 1883 where it says "Mr Mara said Mr Delany was charged with intimidating John Deavy, a servant in the employment of Mrs Banks, who resides near Borris-in-Ossory. Mrs Banks directed Deavy to go with her horses to a farm known as The Liberty, Sentry Hill, and to plough it for her daughter, Mrs Delany."
I wondered if this was a farm / estate with lands possibly covering more than one townland and possibly with several houses let on it, but I can't find anything thus far to support that.
Added: Another newspaper covering that 1883 item above has the reference "... to plough the land known as The Liberties at Sentry Hill ..."
-
Which brings it all back to my original post ... you have answered my query. Thank you very much.
regards
John
-
The FamilySearch Catalogue has the "Valuation Revision Books" for the area I'm concerned with. See the screenshots below. They are available on microfilm. Does this mean I can view them by going to a LDS Library near me? (never done this before).
Yes. Spent many long hours looking at such 20-30 years ago.
BUT - I believe the LDS no longer distribute on microfilm, so if not already there (at a local FHC), you can't get on microfilm. So can they be viewed online at LDS FHCs?
Also, the LDS copies are black and white, which loses some of the important information in the colored original.
-
An important point:
The NLI copies of the Borris-In-Ossory parish registers start in 1840 - meaning this is also when the Ancestry material start. However, the Aghaboe parish registers go back to 1794/95 and the
Phelans seem to appear in both parishes.
Earliest Phelan reference with Liberty address that I see is 1823.
Earliest " ".. with Sentryhill " is 1808.
Earlist " " .. with Centryhill " is 1811.
-
The amusing item I had spotted was -
New Ross Standard, 28 Oct 1899
There's an Elizabeth Brophy, age 30, at Lower Borris, Parish of Clooneygoose.
-
Borris is a different place to Borris in Ossory though. Different county.
As to 'Liberty' if you pick other entries from the baptismal registers and follow the children through, most end up using Sentry Hill as an address.
Many of the families are still there in 1901: https://census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Queen_s_Co_/Borris_in_Ossory/Sentry_Hill/
-
Three mentions in Newspapers
Leinster Express 1883 “he went to plough the lands called ‘The Liberty’ at Sentry Hill”
Same court case Leinster Leader “to plough the lands called ‘The Liberties’ at Sentry Hill outside the town.
Laois Nationalists 2012 “Paddy was born in 1923 in the Liberties, now known as Sentry Hill, only a stones throw from the hurling field in Borris in Ossory”
-
As far as I can tell, the present day Catholic parish of Borris-In-Ossory was originally part of the parish of Aghaboe. Borris seems to have been split off as a separate parish ca. 1840, meaning that records previous to that date are to be found under Aghaboe.
Bottom line is that records of both parishes need to be looked at - I see baptism for Phelans of Liberty in Aghaboe parish records thru 1851.