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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: stevelord65 on Saturday 31 May 25 10:54 BST (UK)
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My Gr Gr Grandfather owned a warehouse at 32 London road, Liverpool (England) in the 1870s. This is the building that occupies the same spot in the present day. Just wondering if it looks old enough to date from that period: does anyone know?
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It looks of the period to me despite the modern double glazing
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Yes I agree. Definitely of the period.
Martin
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Gore's directory for 1900 shows 6 separate occupiers of premises between Pudsey Street and Hotham Street
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1873:
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1875:
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I asked an AI and it said 1870s-1890s based on window style and architectural details.
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deleted, wrong building, I’ll try again!
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Evidence for a date between 1864 and 1891.
This is the site on the 1953 large scale map, just to establish the plan view at 30-32 London Road.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/210679825#zoom=5.0&lat=4279&lon=2697&layers=BT (https://maps.nls.uk/view/210679825#zoom=5.0&lat=4279&lon=2697&layers=BT)
Same site on the 1891 Town Plan: split across two maps, unfortunately but clearly different from the next , earlier, map in my sequence.
corner with Hotham Street
https://maps.nls.uk/view/229948710#zoom=4.6&lat=1657&lon=1067&layers=BT (https://maps.nls.uk/view/229948710#zoom=4.6&lat=1657&lon=1067&layers=BT)
just west of corner
https://maps.nls.uk/view/229948707#zoom=5.2&lat=1836&lon=15874&layers=BT (https://maps.nls.uk/view/229948707#zoom=5.2&lat=1836&lon=15874&layers=BT)
And finally the earlier Town Plan, surveyed 1848, revised 1864: a different building.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/229948131#zoom=6.1&lat=6087&lon=3604&layers=BT (https://maps.nls.uk/view/229948131#zoom=6.1&lat=6087&lon=3604&layers=BT)
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So now I’m confused.
This is an overlay view with the 1891 Town Plan on top and a satellite view underneath. I must admit that I cannot convince myself that this is the same building.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19.5&lat=53.40912&lon=-2.97750&layers=117746211&b=GoogleSat&o=59 (https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19.5&lat=53.40912&lon=-2.97750&layers=117746211&b=GoogleSat&o=59)
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How strange. It looks like London Road was made narrower at some point.
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I have to agree it looks odd. However the town plan and satellite image are misaligned. Once you take that into account the present day building has the same frontage as numbers 28, 30 and 32 on the town plan - even the windows match up. The Ordnance Survey sheet Liverpool - Lancashire CVI.10.24 you linked to is clearly marked as surveyed in 1890 and seems to match the 1890 town plan, but the layout of the building (number 32) adjacent to Hothan Street is much shorter today. Maybe the result of WW2 bomb damage? The street . below seems to confirm this. The brickwork is much newer than on the back of the adjacent (number 30?) building
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Just in case anyone doubts that the satellite image and the town plan are misaligned, look further South to the rail tracks in Lime Street station
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split across two maps
Re Reply #8, actually, you can now get the 1891 Town Plan as a continuous layer, via the Georeferenced Maps viewer. It is here:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18.0&lat=53.40907&lon=-2.97739&layers=117746211&b=ESRIWorld&o=100
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the layout of the building (number 32) adjacent to Hothan Street is much shorter today
I'm wondering whether the developers of the adjacent office building purchased and demolished that part of 32 in order to create the entrance to the new building.
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There appears to be a blocked out window.
Window tax was introduced in England and Wales in 1696. It was repealed in 1851. Suggests the building was built before 1851.
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Yes, I think that back view in reply #11 explains why the plan looks wrong, even with the misalignment.
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There appears to be a blocked out window.
Window tax was introduced in England and Wales in 1696. It was repealed in 1851. Suggests the building was built before 1851.
We know from the map (https://maps.nls.uk/view/229948131#zoom=6.5&lat=468&lon=7154&layers=BT) that AlanBoyd posted earlier, surveyed in 1848, that the previous structure was the Blind Indigent Schools which the current Nos 28, 30 and 32 might have formed part of, probably the main entrance to the School. However by the 1851 census number 32 was a separate, self contained dwelling. The occupants were Morgan Radcliffe 48 a ship's carpenter, his wife, daughter, son, an assistant and an apprentice. I haven't been able to find the 1861 occupant, but by 1871 John Lloyd aged 41 Draper plus 13 draper's assistants or domestic staff are occupying 32 London Road and Joseph Naylor and family are at number 30, tying in with the directory entries Shaun posted. In 1861 John Lloyd 31 Draper's Assistant and his wife Ellen were living at 121 Park Road, West Derby.
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Incidentally the streetview image below is what the front of the buildings looked like in September 2008. Assuming the missing two buildings, where the Odeon is, were a mirror of number 30 and 32, the thinner, slightly set-back, central part of the building in between the Picture House Pub and the Odeon Cinema could well have been where the main entrance to the School was located (see extract of map below showing the School facade on London Road).
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In 1860 the premises were occupied by the Vey brothers, grocers
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A question for the OP:
Who was your ancestor, what was his occupation, and what is the evidence that links him to 32 London Road?
I have just been trawling through newspaper references to 32 London Road in the 1870s, of which there are many. In accordance with an earlier find in a directory, it is clear that the premises were the home of John Lloyd and Company, trimmers. The company seems to have finally sold all of its stock in February 1880. There are so many newspaper mentions of Lloyd’s business that I may have missed something referring to some other business operating from that address, hence the request for more information.
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Incidentally the streetview image below is what the front of the buildings looked like in September 2008. Assuming the missing two buildings, where the Odeon is, were a mirror of number 30 and 32, the thinner, slightly set-back, central part of the building in between the Picture House Pub and the Odeon Cinema could well have been where the main entrance to the School was located (see extract of map below showing the School facade on London Road).
Two things that I can see that argue against this: first of all I don’t see any evidence of the ‘set-back’ section on the early map; and, more importantly, that truncated structure at roof level isn’t, to my eye, consistent with the proposed symmetry since if it belongs to the proposed central bay and is extended into where the odeon is I can’t see that there is enough room for the other side of the symmetrical structure.
If you see what I mean.
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For what its worth here is an overlay of the earliest map with a later version.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19.8&lat=53.40917&lon=-2.97748&layers=117746211&b=117746212&o=63 (https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19.8&lat=53.40917&lon=-2.97748&layers=117746211&b=117746212&o=63)
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Gore’s 1843 Directory has:
BLIND, SCHOOL FOR THE INDIGENT, 18 London Road
Added: Gore’s 1853 has the same organisation at a different address (Hardman Street, the building is still there today.)
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Thanks so much for all the interesting replies: it seems like the consensus is that the current building certainly could have been there in the 1870s. My interest in it is that my Gr Gr Grandfather John Lloyd ran a business called Lloyd & Co from the late 1860s, until 1880 when it went bankrupt. The firm was variously described as "drapers", "tailors and outfitters", or "manufacturers of artificial flowers dealers in trimmings and fancy goods". 32 London road was his trimming warehouse.
I know a fair bit about him, helped very much by a previous post on here: https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=886127.msg7594000#msg7594000
I was fascinated to know if any of his premises had survived: his main residence at 24 Oxford street is still there (the terrace that it's in is a grade 2 listed building!) Another shop that he had at 14 Mill street seems to have long gone.
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Just adding to my reply #21 here is an overlay with the Odeon Cinema included, in an attempt to bolster my ‘loss of symmetry’ argument.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19.4&lat=53.40912&lon=-2.97734&layers=173&b=117746212&o=48 (https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=19.4&lat=53.40912&lon=-2.97734&layers=173&b=117746212&o=48)
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And I seem to have contributed to the previous thread!
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You did! Thanks Alan :)
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Have just had another look through Gore's directory and it looks like my Gr Gr Grandfather started using 32 London road around 1868. If the current building dates roughly to 1870-1900, that's on the edge, or just outside, that timeframe...
Also had a look at the history of the Liverpool Blind School, there's some info here:
https://historyof.place/location/liverpool-school-for-the-indigent-blind
It says that the school in London road was definitely demolished in 1851 and moved to Harman street. The town plan from 1848 (revised 1864) still shows the school in its old location: am wondering if when the map was revised only parts of it were revised?
Anyway, presumably when the school was demolished in 1851 another building (predecessor of the current one) was put up. Assuming the warehouse was brand new when my Gr Gr Grandfather moved in around 1868/69, that 1851 building would have been demolished after only about 17 years - unlikely perhaps?
So I'm thinking maybe the current building dates from the 1880s or thereabouts, meaning it was not my Gr Gr Grandfather's warehouse, but who knows...
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Just thought it was worth posting this image of the London Road school taken from the item linked in reply#28
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The earliest newspaper mention I can find for 32 London Road is this ad for Vey Brothers in May 1858:
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/44c52738-1003-476d-846f-2a27e05460c4
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Taken at face value this correspondence in the Liverpool Mercury in March 1862 implies that at least some of the Blind School was not demolished but was repurposed. I’m posting the second letter first because it is easier to understand and will make sense of the second item which is an extract of a longer diatribe.
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There is a continuous record of advertising from 32 London Road from the late 1850s up to the appearance of Mr Lloyd:
late 1850s to March 16th 1868, the Vey brothers, coffee and tea
July 10th 1868 the Liverpool China and India Tea Company appears
June 1869 the same company advertising the address to let
June 1869 Lloyd trimming start advertising for staff at that address
Thus, I can't see that there was ever any time when the building could have been (fully) demolished.
Perhaps AndyJ2022 has been correct all along!
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Also, re: the item linked in reply#28
The suggestion is that the Blind school was vacated/demolished because of the expansion of Lime Street Station, but that makes no sense if you look at any map: the station has never encroached even past Lord Nelson Street.
Perhaps the feeling was that the environment was becoming unsuitable – noise, smoke–?
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Looking at the other, much clearer image from the article about the founding of the Blind School (shown below) I don't think the front on London Road was remodelled to become the post 1851 version. The image below shows that the central portion of the old building projected forward slightly from the two single storey wings. They probably took it down to the foundations of the original building so that the new building had a similar footprint, and may have reused some of the architectural stonework, but other than that I think the current building completely dates from the second half of the nineteenth century.
Based on the 1871 census when there are 14 people living at number 32, I think the premises must have extended out to the rear, along Hotham Street, some distance as shown on the town plan for there to have been space for warehouse storage there as well. I doubt very much that the bricked up window had anything to do with the window tax. It could be a much more modern alteration, perhaps following the remodelling in the late 1940s/early 1950s when the cinema was built next door.
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Agree with Alan's post above, that the Blind School can't have been demolished because of the expansion of Lime Street station: wikipedia says that the station was expanded in the 1840s and completed by 1849.
And perhaps the school building, or parts of it, did survive into the 1860s ...
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And perhaps the school building, or parts of it, did survive into the 1860s ...
Certainly parts may have survived, but not the front part, because the press cuttings above are dated March 1862 and by then Messrs Vey, Eustance etc are occupying numbers 26 to 32 London Road. The school building had a single front entrance and so would not have had multiple numbers as its address.
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I was looking at the window styles and pattern of the frontage of the Blind School in that old engraving and was struck by the many similarities with the upper storey frontage of 28-32 London Road today
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PDBW7HUNzxNkqiq88
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I was looking at the window styles and pattern of the frontage of the Blind School in that old engraving and was struck by the many similarities with the upper storey frontage of 28-32 London Road today
https://maps.app.goo.gl/PDBW7HUNzxNkqiq88
Yes I agree, hence my earlier comment "and may have reused some of the architectural stonework..."
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On the other hand if you use google street view to move a little further East to number 38-40 there is similar architecture on that building.
Also, I wonder if stevelord65 has noticed that the building (number 34 London Road) on the other side of Hotham street is called the Drapery. In the 1871 census John Lloyd was referring to himself and his business as a Draper's.
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I did notice that yes Andy :) Looking in the street directories though, number 32 is always in the block between Hotham & Pudsey streets. Either number 34 was also a drapers business at some point in its history, or the whole thing is a spooky coincidence...
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The London Road area is being promoted now as the "Fabric District" . This probably has influenced the naming of the development at 34-48 as "The Drapery".
https://fabricdistrict.co.uk/2022/09/welcome-to-the-fabric-district/
https://www.redwing.co.uk/the-drapery/
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And perhaps the school building, or parts of it, did survive into the 1860s ...
Certainly parts may have survived, but not the front part, because the press cuttings above are dated March 1862 and by then Messrs Vey, Eustance etc are occupying numbers 26 to 32 London Road. The school building had a single front entrance and so would not have had multiple numbers as its address.
Also, as I noted somewhere above, the School address was 18 London Road, so clearly some reorganisation took place in the area. I suspect the block to the east of Hotham Street also changed.
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The suggestion is that the Blind school was vacated/demolished because of the expansion of Lime Street Station, but that makes no sense if you look at any map: the station has never encroached even past Lord Nelson Street.
There's a better explanation here: http://www.thefootballvoice.com/2022/02/remembering-liverpool-structures-royal.html
"In 1849 the L.N.W.R. agreed to exchange land they held in Hope Street and Hardman Street, plus the sum of £9,500 for the entire estate adjoining Lime Street Station owned by the school."
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There was certainly a renumbering after the redevelopment of the old blind school. The Crown Vaults (Benjamin Mitchell) which was on the next block up from Hotham Street was originally number 24; the Stanley Arms (John Green) further up was 30 and/or 32 (directories differ slightly).
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Slightly off the main topic, but here is a photo from 1919 (from the Liverpool Echo). It used to be a larger building: looks like half of it has now been demolished...
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Thanks, Steve. It's your thread so I think you are permitted to go off topic if you want!
The photo certainly confirms my suggestion in reply 18 that the missing right hand side probably mirrored the present day left hand side, but it also shoots down my suggestion that the bricking up of the window might have been done post WW2. Although it's worth noting that in the 1919 photo two windows are bricked up, whereas today the lower window has been opened up.
The backwards hand writing appears to refer to Roof? damage August 1919.
If nothing else, collectively we have come up with a pretty good history of this building from its origins in the 1800 Blind School to the present.
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My ipad charge is just about to run out. Is this any use - https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Insurance_Plan_of_the_City_of_Liverpool_Vol._IV;_sheet_82_(BL_149484).tiff
The building looks typically “Regency” to me.
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Yet another useful piece of the jigsaw. It indicates that mantles were being sold at numbers 30 and 32 in August 1894. Presumably the occupiers of the premises were the same company, Dodgson and Smith, who were there in 1919. The layout of the buildings of the Tramway Company offices and stables is very similar to that of the Blind School back in 1850.
While I agree that the architectural style might be described as Regency, numbers 26-32 London Road were built after the end to the Regency period itself.
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With reference to the possible annotation of roof damage on the photo, could this be the explanation? Apparently the police went on strike in Liverpool in August 1919. The military were called in and the battleship HMS Valiant arrived in the Mersey to help secure the docks. There was rioting and looting.
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Good find, Alan. Several of the shop windows on the street have been boarded up.
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Yet another useful piece of the jigsaw. It indicates that mantles were being sold at numbers 30 and 32 in August 1894. Presumably the occupiers of the premises were the same company, Dodgson and Smith, who were there in 1919. The layout of the buildings of the Tramway Company offices and stables is very similar to that of the Blind School back in 1850.
While I agree that the architectural style might be described as Regency, numbers 26-32 London Road were built after the end to the Regency period itself.
Of course, architecturally, “Regency” extended well beyond the George III/IV Regency period.
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Genuine question, I’m a learner, what features of the building might be classified as Regency?
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Genuine question, I’m a learner, what features of the building might be classified as Regency?
Typically, “golden section” (Georgian shaped) windows and plain rendered walls.