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General => Armed Forces => World War Two => Topic started by: broaway on Monday 26 May 25 13:36 BST (UK)
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Hi I wonder if anyone can shed any light on this subject please
My uncle Alfred Smith DoB 1917 Derby was in the army WW2
A family member once told me he served in Africa during his time But I cannot find what regiment he was in and this is what I am looking for
He married a Lillian Morris in Bury 1946?
His parents was William Henry Smith and Margaret Dennis
Any help gratefully received
Also like to thank the members on here for all the very kind assistance given in my searches in the past
Thank you
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Is this the Alfred Smith who died in 1971 in Bury, Lancs with a dob 14.3.1917.
SS
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Hi Softly
yes this is the one
I have been searching for his enlistment but failing
George
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You won't find his enlistment online unless he was in one of the smaller Corps or REME, which have so far had their records processed by the National Archives (https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/about/news/mod-service-personnel-records-now-available-update/), with some of those being available on Ancestry. The remainder of the 9 million records which have recently been transferred from the MOD to the National Archives are in the process of being catalogued.
You have two choices. Either wait until around 2029 when TNA expect to have completed the task, or contact the MOD with the details you have and ask them to provide a reference number which you can present to TNA in order that they can locate and copy his service documents.
https://www.gov.uk/get-copy-military-records-of-service/apply-for-the-records-of-a-deceased-serviceperson
Unfortunately just asking TNA to find an Alfred Smith born 1917 will be an unrealistic task (see below) until they have indexed all the records. The MOD on the other hand already have a partial index which should allow them to find the relevant person. You won't need to provide a death certificate as it is obvious that Alfred will no longer be alive.
Incidentally just to give you an idea of the problem, there were 623 Alfred Smiths born in 1917 in England and Wales alone. After we add in Scotland and Northern Ireland that figure might be around 750. If we guess that around 500 of these went on to serve during WW2, with around 350 joining the Army, 100 going into the RAF and a further 50 to the Navy, you can see the extent of the problem. In 1942 the size of the British Army was 2,438,000 of whom around 140,000 were in North Africa.
Good luck with your quest.
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I did find this in the newspapers.
I see in 1939 ther is a William H and Margaret at that address with son Alfred but he is down as being born 14th March 1919.
If you think it might be him there is a longer piece about what he did in the war with photo.
Cathy
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Cath, I think you are right that this isn't the correct Alfred Smith. The man in the clipping was aged 25 in 1944, so born 1919 (one of 620 Alfred Smiths born in England and Wales in that year).
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Possibly not, but image could possibly read 14.3.17
It mentions in the piece he had two brothers in the RN, Albert and Arthur.
Interesting job in the army.
Cathy
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Possibly not, but image could possibly read 14.3.17
It mentions in the piece he had two brothers in the RN, Albert and Arthur.
Interesting job in the army.
Cathy
Well yes perhaps the 1939 Register entry is debateable, but that doesn't explain the press cutting giving his age as 25 in 1944.
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I agree, too many Smiths around but a possible same family in Derby with an Alfred born 1917.
Long shot, I agree, just putting it out there :)
Cathy
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Broaway,
The key to finding your Alfred Smith is knowing his Army number. That will be unique to him. It is most likely that he will have earned several medals, including the Defence Medal, the British War Medal and the Africa Star. Do you know if these might still be in the family somewhere? They would provide his Army number.
Until you have his number, all the other avenues of research which I could suggest, such as the casualty and POW lists which are online, would be a waste of time as you couldn't confirm if you had the right man.
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Thank you Andy
All this family have passed on
so research is difficult without anyone to ask
I a sure the message by Cath has hit the nail on the head thank you
George
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Unfortunately, I think you will find that unlike WW1 Medals, WW2 Medals were not normally stamped with the recipient’s name and number, so would be unlikely to be of help even if they were in possession of a family member. Occasionally WW2 Medals that are stamped have usually been done by the recipient.
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Thank you Jebber
Much appreciated
Regards
George
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Cathy,
I think I owe you a large apology. Some of the birth dates for Alfred's siblings are decidedly odd, and furthermore there is no birth registration for an Alfred Smith with the mother's maiden name Dennis within 100 miles of Derby in 1919.
If we start from William Henry Smith's marriage to Margaret Dennis in 1907 at St Luke's in Derby, they appear to have had several older children who had left home by the time of the 1939 Register; there's Reginald William born (?16 March) 1909 who died in 1981; then there's William H born 1913, followed by Margaret A born 1915 who appears to have died two years later.
There is then a gap until Alfred's birth is registered in Qtr 1 1917, (not 1919). There is then a birth of Arthur Smith, mother's maiden name Dennis in Derby during the last quarter of 1919. We then get another anomaly. In the 1939 register brother Albert's date of birth is shown as 20 Oct 1924, yet his birth is registered in quarter 4 of 1923. Antony's entry in the 1939R and his birth registration agree. The last entry in the 1939R is for Eric whose birth date is given as 16 Oct 1932 (when mother Margaret would have been in her 43rd year) but his birth was registered in the last quarter of 1931.
Given the fact that Alfred's, Albert's and Eric's birth dates are so muddled, I think it is highly likely that
Alfred though born in 1917 was actually brought up with his parents thinking he was born in 1919, perhaps confusing him with Arthur. If that is the case then the newspaper may have got the details about Alfred's age from his parents, not an official source, further adding to the confusion.
If all of that turns out to be a reasonable explanation, then the newspaper article at least provides one additional piece of information about Alfred, namely that he was in the Royal Army Ordnance Corps, and worked in a mobile bath unit. I think the fact that two of his brothers are also mentioned by name in the article is too much of a coincidence for this not to be the right man.
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Whoever was the informant of Alfred's death in 1971 certainly knew his date of birth so I suggest Alfred knew as well.
SS
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Andy, no apology needed :)
I wasn't that sure it was right either, just hoped it might be!
I found the article interesting never heard of the MBU before, liked the bit about the ladies worrying they might be scrubbed down by the british soldiers!
Cathy
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Thank you all for the information
I am sure your correct Andy
Registering was a bit hit and miss Reginald was brought up by his grandmother from a very early age due to the fact that his parents was not allowed to have children whilst being employed at the premises
My Grandmother also had slight demensia and could have been confused having so many children
Thank you again for all that contributed
Regards
George
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Thanks, Broaway.
Incidentaly do you know if either the Athol Smith (policeman) or Beatrice A Dennis who married in Derby in 1926 were related to the parents of Alfred, or was it just coincidence?
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I have never heard of those two people so I think its a coincidence
but thank you
Regards