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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Ayrshire => Topic started by: chipchippotato on Saturday 24 May 25 13:00 BST (UK)
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Hi,
When I was searching for my ancestor Jessie Struthers, I found that on her death certificate her birthdate was placed in Maybole to the parents Moses Struthers and Elizabeth Edgard. When I tried to find her birth cert on Scotland's people, the only thing that is coming up for a J* with the parents Moses and Elizabeth between 1837-1841 was for a Janet Carruthers born to a Moses Carruthers and Elizabeth Edgar in Maybole 1839. The birth date, location and parent first names add up, but it looks like a different last name. Could she have changed it at some point? She ended up in New Zealand by 1863. Every legal document I have seen from NZ (marriage, her death, husband's death and daughter's birth and death) say Struthers.
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The 1841 Census (transcript only - I don't have access to original) has -
Address - Inch Closs, Maybole, Ayrshire
Moses Caruthers, age 24
Elizabeth Caruthers, age 20
Janet Caruthers, age 1
All born Ayrshire.
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The 1851 Census reads (transcript only) -
Address - Post Vennal. Maybole, Ayrshire
Moses Cruthers, Head, 38, Hand Loom Weaver (cotton), born Maybole
Eliza Cruthers, Wife, 30, born Maybole
Janet Cruthers, dau, 11, born Maybole
Anne Cruthers, dau, 5, born Maybole
Isabella Cruthers, dau, 0, born Maybole
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In 1861 the Surname is Caruthers.
Address - Post Vennal
Moses' PoB is now Ireland. Janet is not with the family but 2 brothers since '51 - John 6 and James 4.
The last member of the household listed is -
Robert Edgar, Boarder, unm, 15, shoemaker, born Maybole
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Another Carruthers/Struthers here:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=757620.72 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=757620.72)
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FindMyPast Scotland Baptism (transcript only)
Elizabeth Edgar, 3 Nov 1819, Maybole, parents James Edgar and Janet Kean.
On the '41 Census -
Address - Weavers' Vennal
James Edgar, 50, born Ireland
Jannet Edgar, 50, born Ireland
John, 25, born Ayrshire
James, 15, born Ayrshire
John Clark, 14, born Ayrshire
Elizabeth Edgar, bap 1819, not with household.
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deleted
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1861 Census
Address - Dundas Street, Govan, Tradeston, Lanarkshire
Janet Caruthers, Servant, unm, age 21, Domestic Servant, born Maybole
By 1863 a Jessie Struthers is marrying in NZ.
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FamilySearch Assisted Passages to NZ - 1863
Ship - Lancashire Witch"
Jessie Strathers, age 23, County - Lanarkshire, Dom. Servant. However, in the index it has "Jessie Struthers".
I think the ship sailed 4 July and arrived early October.
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Apologies for interrupting your flow here HT, but 15 October 1863: Lyttelton Times, has a complete list of "Immigrants per Lancashire Witch'.
Under the Single Women–Domestic Servants heading I see :
Jessie Strathes, Lanarkshire
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15 June 1863: Glasgow Herald
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AB,
No prob, a good spot - I'm still reeling from post #6 which I deleted. Couldn't believe I was so far from the mark when I revisited it. Double tasking listening to footie on wireless and chasing genealogy - they just don't mix.
The ship's manifest on FamilySearch covers 4 Jul-13 Oct 1863 if I I recall correctly - refers to Strathers and Struthers.
The NZ BDM index is short of detail but I was drawn to the birth of Janet Shutters Grant 1868, parents Janet and John (til advised otherwise I'm linking Jessie Struthers to the 1863 marriage to John Grant tho' there wasn't a lot of time available to marry in '63 if arriving October?)
Found 2 Janet Struthers in Lanarkshire on the '61 Census of the right age to fit the 1863 arrival "County Lanarkshire") but both still there in '71 (or was I double tasking at the time!!)
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Unless she already knew John Grant and was travelling out to marry him?
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I had wondered if they had met on board but a check of the ship's manifest ruled him out.
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Thank you for all the replies! Jessie Struthers and John Grant married October 1863. He came from Inverness-shire (I'm not from Scotland so I don't know the distances between the two counties and whether they could have crossed paths at some point) and arrived in NZ in 1862. Her death certificate says her parents are Elizabeth (Edgar or Edgard) and Moses and the only J* born in Scotland to parents Moses and Elizabeth between 1837 and 1841 was a Janet Carruthers. The date and place all match up. Could it be possible that the name got mis-spelt at some point and it never changed back? Based on the evidence, it looks like she went from Carruthers, to Strathers (if she came over on the Lancashire Witch) then Struthers. Their daughter, Ann Isabella Grant born 1875, is listed as the daughter of John Grant and Jessie Grant (formerly Struthers). Could Jessie be a nickname for Janet? I've noticed Ann's name also changes to Annie later on.
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Jessie for Janet is a common Scots replacement.
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If he was from Inverness-shire and she came from South Ayrshire then I think the most likely site of ‘paths crossing’ would be Glasgow since we know that she moved there before 1861.
If he arrived in NZ in 1862 then he should be find-able in the 1861 census. What was his year of birth, and is there any clue as to where in Inverness-shire he came from?
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As you say so much "fits". As AB says, Jessie can be the diminutive of Janet or Jean.
Jessie's maiden name on the Lancashire Witch is "Struthers" in the alphabetical index at the front of the manifest but "Strathers" elsewhere - and reported as "Strathes" in the newspaper list.
In '61 "Janet Caruthers, age 21, Domestic Servant, born Maybole" is working in Lanarkshire and in '63 a "Jessie Struthers/Strathers/Strathes, Lanarkshire, age 23, Dom Servant" arrives NZ.
Can you find a Janet Carruthers, born Maybole 1839, parents Moses/Elizabeth in OTHER THAN NZ after the '61 Census - eliminate her as "your" Jessie.
Re last post I think I spotted John on a FamilySearch passenger list of '62 - will revisit.
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I guess this is your John Grant?
Lyttleton Times Weds April 2nd 1862, immigrants arriving on ship Victoria include John Grant [no other details].
manifest at Family Search:
Victoria, departure date 5 December 1861
John Grant, 23, Inverness-shire, ploughman
A very superficial search at A**y reveals two candidates (details from transcripts only).
John Grant, 1838, Abernethy Inverness, Glasgow St James, police constable
John Grant, 1837, Drummersd? Inverness, Glasgow Calton, Jour[neyman] tailor
The first of these seems like the better candidate with plenty of opportunities for a PC to meet someone like Jessie?
Perhaps when emigrating to NZ it was better to emphasize an agricultural skill? What did he become in NZ?
Or neither of these John Grants in Glasgow is the correct man.
Added: for clarity, those hits are in 1861
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There is a tree on A**y (OP?) which records that the John Grant who emigrated on the Victoria and married Janet Carruthers was a police constable, no documentation (and no ref to 1861 census).
So assuming that the John Grant I identified in 1861 is of interest, from detail at SP he is in the Police Barracks at Jail Square, which is now Jocelyn Square.
The Dundas Street where Janet Caruthers is recorded as a servant in 1861 no longer exists. It ran N from Scotland Street to Morrison Street and aligned with the modern Laidlaw Street.
Laidlaw Street to Jocelyn Square is 1 mile.
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If he was from Inverness-shire and she came from South Ayrshire then I think the most likely site of ‘paths crossing’ would be Glasgow since we know that she moved there before 1861.
If he arrived in NZ in 1862 then he should be find-able in the 1861 census. What was his year of birth, and is there any clue as to where in Inverness-shire he came from?
He was born around 1838 in Abernathy and Kincardine.
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I guess this is your John Grant?
Lyttleton Times Weds April 2nd 1862, immigrants arriving on ship Victoria include John Grant [no other details].
manifest at Family Search:
Victoria, departure date 5 December 1861
John Grant, 23, Inverness-shire, ploughman
A very superficial search at A**y reveals two candidates (details from transcripts only).
John Grant, 1838, Abernethy Inverness, Glasgow St James, police constable
John Grant, 1837, Drummersd? Inverness, Glasgow Calton, Jour[neyman] tailor
The first of these seems like the better candidate with plenty of opportunities for a PC to meet someone like Jessie?
Perhaps when emigrating to NZ it was better to emphasize an agricultural skill? What did he become in NZ?
Or neither of these John Grants in Glasgow is the correct man.
Yes! The ploughman is the John Grant that I think is my ancestor. I am just waiting to receive his death cert to confirm
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As you say so much "fits". As AB says, Jessie can be the diminutive of Janet or Jean.
Jessie's maiden name on the Lancashire Witch is "Struthers" in the alphabetical index at the front of the manifest but "Strathers" elsewhere - and reported as "Strathes" in the newspaper list.
In '61 "Janet Caruthers, age 21, Domestic Servant, born Maybole" is working in Lanarkshire and in '63 a "Jessie Struthers/Strathers/Strathes, Lanarkshire, age 23, Dom Servant" arrives NZ.
Can you find a Janet Carruthers, born Maybole 1839, parents Moses/Elizabeth in OTHER THAN NZ after the '61 Census - eliminate her as "your" Jessie.
Re last post I think I spotted John on a FamilySearch passenger list of '62 - will revisit.
I looked up on ancestry and I couldn't find any census data, the only thing that comes up for a Janet Carruthers with those details are birth certs for the same person.
Also, where did you find that she was working in Lanarkshire? I can't find any 1861 census data for her.
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Many trees on A****y want John Grant to be the son of Peter Grant and Jane (McPherson) Grant. I found this family in the 1851 census and began trying to find them in 1861 with the aim of possibly ruling out this John Grant as being the PC in Glasgow. I didn’t find them.
The A***y trees maintain that Peter Grant died in 1851 and Jane Grant died in 1858. I haven’t found the original tree (with documentation?) that everyone is copying from, and I have failed to find either of these deaths at SP. The trees all give precise dates.
I have reached the point where I’m probably just duplicating what you already know, so I will stop now.
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Many trees on A****y want John Grant to be the son of Peter Grant and Jane (McPherson) Grant. I found this family in the 1851 census and began trying to find them in 1861 with the aim of possibly ruling out this John Grant as being the PC in Glasgow. I didn’t find them.
The A***y trees maintain that Peter Grant died in 1851 and Jane Grant died in 1858. I haven’t found the original tree (with documentation?) that everyone is copying from, and I have failed to find either of these deaths at SP.
Jane Grant, widow, 52, parents John McPherson and Christina McLean, died at Rymore, Abernethy and Kincardine on 24 October 1858. Informant was Charles Grant, son.
At Rymore in 1851 are Peter Grant, 48; Jane, 44: Charles, 21; Christina, 18; John, 13; Peter, 10; William, 9; Lewis, 4; Gillies, 0. Christina, John, Peter, William and Lewis match the baptisms of the family of Peter G and Jane McP.
In 1841, at Cullichie, Abernethy are Peter, 35; Jane, 30; James, 10; Christina, 8; John, 3; Peter, 0.
So the Anc* tree does seem to have got this right, and Peter senior must have died between the 1851 census (31 March 1851) and 31 December 1854 (the day before the start of civil registration). There is no likely death on SP, so it may be that there is a gravestone with the date of death of Peter senior.
So it is possible, perhaps even likely, that this is your John Grant, but it doesn't prove conclusively that he actually is.
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Thanks Forfarian, don’t know why I didn’t find the 1858 death.
It took a while, but I found Rymore and Cullachie of Rymore. This is a 25 inch map from 1871 showing both sites.
https://maps.nls.uk/view/75135292#zoom=4.1&lat=7506&lon=9379&layers=BT (https://maps.nls.uk/view/75135292#zoom=4.1&lat=7506&lon=9379&layers=BT)
And here is another 25 inch map overlaying a satellite image to show how the landscape looks remarkably similar today:
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.7&lat=57.22975&lon=-3.68531&layers=168&b=ESRIWorld&o=100 (https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=15.7&lat=57.22975&lon=-3.68531&layers=168&b=ESRIWorld&o=100)
Cullachie of Rymore is indexed as a Highland Historic Site
https://her.highland.gov.uk/Event/EHG5245 (https://her.highland.gov.uk/Event/EHG5245)
If you want to find the area on modern maps I have found it best to search for Aundorach (also shown on the linked maps).
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Cullachie of Rymore is still on the maps. National Grid Reference NH984168.
See https://www.geograph.org.uk/gridref/NH9816
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Thought I would respond and hope someone sees! The birth certificate for John Grant (1838-1923) confirms Peter Grant and Jane McPherson as the parents. However, Jane McPherson seems to have multiple name changes from Jean to Janet at different points (e.g., there is no marriage cert for a Jane McPherson to Peter Grant in the 1820s but there is one for Peter Grant and Janet Grant). The only J* McPherson born from 1800-1810 is Jean McPherson - this lines up with the death cert information someone found earlier. Would this be right?
Also, Peter Grant's (1803-1851) parents seem to be a bit of a mystery given how common the name is. Other trees have Christian McPherson and James Grant as the parents but I'm not sure.
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Jane McPherson seems to have multiple name changes from Jean to Janet at different points (e.g., there is no marriage cert for a Jane McPherson to Peter Grant in the 1820s but there is one for Peter Grant and Janet Grant).
No, she didn't.
Jane/Jean are very common variants of one another. Many people will tell you that Janet is commonly used as a variant of Jean/Jane, but I have found many more families with both a Jane/Jean and a Janet/Jessie than I have come across instances of a Jean/Jane also being recorded as Janet.
If Jane/Jean's maiden surname was MacPherson, she would not be recorded as Grant. This must be a different couple altogether.
In fact it's easy to prove this.
Peter Grant and Janet Grant had at least 6 children: Alexander 1828, James 1831, Robert 1833, Elspet 1837; William 1840; Janet 1844; all born in the parish of Duthil and Rothiemurchus. As this family overlaps with that of Peter Grant and Jean/Jane Macpherson, these must be two different Peter Grants.
Jean McPherson, daughter of John McP and Christian McLean, was baptised in the parish of Duthil and Rothiemurchus on 16 July 1804.
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=892475.0 is a continuation of this thread.