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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Rowan Tree on Friday 23 May 25 00:56 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I've got an intriguing marriage certificate:
29/07/1889
St. John the Baptist, Halifax, Yorkshire
Wellington ELLIS to Eliza Jane CROWTHER
Wellington had been married before as follows:
09/11/1872
Christ Church, Sowerby Bridge, Yorkshire
Wellington ELLIS to Alice HASPEY (aka Alice ASPEY)
A married Alice ELLIS (nee ASPEY) appears as a witness at her sister's wedding:
24/12/1872
Christ Church, Sowerby Bridge, Yorkshire
Samuel BARNETT to Elizabeth HASPEY (aka Elizabeth ASPEY)
After the December 1872 marriage, I can't find any trace of Alice. It doesn't appear that she had a child, and I can't find her death/burial.
Her husband, Wellington ELLIS appears on the 1881 census, living with his parents. He's recorded as "unmarried." Then Wellington gets married in July 1889. On his second marriage certificate he's recorded as a widower. What I'm finding intriguing and what I'd like help with deciphering, is what else is faintly wrote on the marriage certificate around Wellington's condition when marrying (see attached image).
And if anyone has any suggestions as to what may have happened to Alice, that'd be great.
Many thanks,
Rowan Tree :)
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Part of the 1889 marriage cert.
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I think I see in the very faint bit
“She also committed Bigamy”
the bit immediately after wife might be “said to be Quite deceased” But I am not as convinced about that.
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She died Alice Aspey according to this tree.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/LD54-8TX
Maybe the marriage was annuled?
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I see
Wife not found.
..... to be dead.
I agree with- she also committed bigamy-
Sue
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She died Alice Aspey according to this tree.
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/LD54-8TX
Maybe the marriage was annuled?
There was an Alice Aspey baptised Warrington 1850. I think that death is likely to be her.
Parents Thomas & Ellen Aspey
(I presume OP's Alice Aspey was born Yorkshire)
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Records show towards the end of her life, the single woman who died at Warrington Hospital according to the online tree, did not have a complete birthdate known.
I agree with mckha489, she is not likely to be the missing wife.
Sue
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I don't have access to the article, however there is a mention of Alice ELLIS under the title "A Postman's Divorce" in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph 3 December 1887. :-\
Modified to add:
found it now, unlikely to be yours, as I think occurred in Norwich. Alice ELLIS was part of the divorce case in George Albert SMITH and Alice Maria CHAMBER.
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I don't have access to the article, however there is a mention of Alice ELLIS under the title "A Postman's Divorce" in the Sheffield Daily Telegraph 3 December 1887. :-\
Nothing usefully identifying
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/ded3990e-579a-4be6-82da-29154e90f59b
Another article describes as a girl (still a woman of the town)
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If our reading is correct, we must remember that the remarks made by the groom on the 1889 certificate may not be accurate.
No-one actually checked such information.
Sue
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Thank you everyone for your replies. This is such a curious one. Bigamy! I'd not considered bigamy. I wonder if there is another marriage out there.
A little bit more information on Alice:
B. 07/02/1852 in Claughton cum Grange, within the parish of Bidston, Cheshire (Wirral).
Bapt. 04/04/1853 at St. Oswald, Bidston. Daughter of Job ASPEY and Martha nee DAVIES.
On the 1871 census working as a live-in housemaid in Bidston.
From what I can tell, not too long after August 1871, most of the ASPEY family left the Wirral. I think they may have initially gone to West Yorkshire before settling in Chadderton and Oldham, Lancashire.
Alice's parents died in Chadderton in 1878 and 1884.
Most of Alice's siblings settled in Chadderton or Oldham, Lancashire.
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enhanced image:
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Thank you for the enhanced image.
I'm currently studying it on a lunch break.
RT :)
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Do you have Alice's marriage certificate? Does it say Wellington was a bachelor?
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The Brighouse Echo, 5th September 1890
A FAMILY SQUABBLE AT BARKISLAND.
Amos Crowther, described as a carter, of Barkisland, was summoned for having assaulted Wellington Ellis, labourer, his brother-in-law; Mary Sykes, widow, an old woman, of Barkisland, was charged with having assaulted her daughter, Eliza Jane Ellis, wife of Wellington Ellis; and Wellington Ellis was charged with having assaulted and threatened Mary Sykes, his mother-in-law.
... Amos Crowther, Mary Sykes' son, ...
... Wellington Ellis married the daughter of Mary Sykes about eighteen months ago, and the mother (Mary Sykes) was good enough at that time to furnish the house for them, and present the furniture to them as gift. ...
Other people mentioned:-
Mr Williams appeared for Amos Crowther and Mary Sykes, and Mr Marshall (Riponden) appeared for Wellington Ellis and Eliza Jane Ellis.
The daughter of Mary Sykes, mentioned.
A young girl named Ruth Fowler and an old woman named Fanny Pinder gave evidence in support of Mr Marshall's Statement.
Paragraph too long to write up the squabble.
The dispute was over furniture and a hankerchief.
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1) The 1889 is a Banns Marriage and I suspect someone might have questioned the Banns or Marriage and a check was made.
Widr. is in bold, amongst probably a pencil or partly erased note. The original Register (perhaps in a Record Office) may reveal what the note says in full.
You will see far right on the Marriage Register page, in the margin Barkisland[?] and another word struck through.
2) His Father, on the two Marriage Certificates doesn't match (9th November 1872 Sowerby Bridge and the 1889 Halifax).
But both do say:- Residence Barkisland
Also the three 1890 Court cases (heard together) mentioned a Fanny Pinder. The surname Pinden (which might supposed to have read Pinder), Occupation Farmer, is on the earlier Certificate, for the Father of Wellington Ellis.
3) In one of the Banns of the earlier marriage her name is Alice Aston.
But she has not signed Aston on the 1872 Marriage, she signed Alice Haspey.
A witness has signed the same (or similar).
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Hello
An Elizabeth Haspey, must also have married about the same time as Alice Haspey in 1872 in the same Registration District of Halifax, because they appear in the same GRO Volume, one page different, according to the GRO Index.
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Hello
An Elizabeth Haspey, must also have married about the same time as Alice Haspey in 1872 in the same Registration District of Halifax, because they appear in the same GRO Volume, one page different, according to the GRO Index.
Alice Haspey and Elizabeth Haspey, look to be sisters, they share the same Father: Job Haspey, according to the two 1872 Marriage Register entries.
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Do you have Alice's marriage certificate? Does it say Wellington was a bachelor?
I found both the 1872 and 1889 marriages on Ancestry and thankfully, the entries in the register are available to view.
Here are the details from the 1872 marriage:
Christ Church, Sowerby Bridge
09/11/1872
Married by banns
Wellington ELLIS - 21 - Bachelor - Finer(?) up at the Mill - Barkisland - John PINDEN (or PINDER) - Farmer
Alice HASPEY - 21 - Spinster - (blank) - Warley - Job HASPEY - Labourer
Both Wellington and Alice signed their own names.
Witnessed by John JACKSON and Catherine HASPEY
NOTE: ASPEY is one of those tricky surnames that you'll find spelt a dozen different ways within a 10 year period. For the family of Job ASPEY (Alice's father) the name eventually settles with the spelling of ASPEY for 13 of Job's 14 children. The eldest child, Joseph, alternated between ASPEY and ASPINALL. Joseph's 1910 obituary says Joseph ASPEY and then ASPINALL in brackets.
During the 19th century, I've come across some creative and varied spellings of this name. The most common spellings that I've found are HASPEY, HASPY, ASPY, ASPEY, ASPERY, ASTBURY and ASPINALL. I've found Alice's father, Job ASPEY, with all of those surname spellings are more besides.
The Alice HASPEY on the 1872 marriage certificate and the Alice ASTON in the banns for the 1872 marriage are one and the same person. ASPEY is just one of those names where the spelling changes A LOT. I don't believe there's anything to read into that.
The witness named Catherine HASPEY on the 1872 marriage is Alice's elder sister. Catherine (1848 - 1940) married James BOARDMAN in Chadderton, Lancashire in 1874.
The next marriage worth mentioning is the marriage of Samuel BARNETT to Elizabeth HASPEY that I mentioned in my original post.
Elizabeth (1854 - 1926) was the younger sister of Catherine and Alice.
A recently married Wellington ELLIS and Alice ELLIS (nee ASPEY/HASPEY) were the witnesses at Samuel and Elizabeth's 24/12/1872 Sowerby Bridge marriage. Wellington & Alice, and Samuel BARNETT signed their own names, while Elizabeth HASPEY marked the register with an 'x'.
Now Wellington ELLIS' second marriage:
St. John the Baptist, Halifax
29 July 1889
Married by banns
Wellington ELLIS - 39 - Widr. - Welver(?) - Barkisland - John ELLIS - Wood Cutter
Eliza Jane CROWTHER - 33 - Sp - (blank) - Barkisland - Israel CROWTHER - Labourer
Wellington ELLIS signs the register with an 'x'. Eliza Jane CROWTHER signs her full name.
Witnessed by Ellis HEBBLETHWAITE and Joseph SAYOR or SAYAR
NOTE: The second witness from the 1889 marriage appears as a witnesses at other marriage at this time.
I'll add details about the change of name of Wellington's father from John PINDER to John ELLIS on the two marriage certificates in my next comment.
Rowan Tree :)
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Wellington ELLIS and his father having 2 names. The mystery unravelled...
Wellington ELLIS was raised by:
His biological mother, Frances (Fanny) nee GLEDHILL and Fanny's second husband, John PINDER.
Wellington is the biological son of Frances and her first husband, John ELLIS.
John ELLIS died in 1855. Wellington was 4 or 5 at the time. A widowed Frances ELLIS nee GLEDHILL and a widowed John PINDER married in 1859.
The two different John's on Wellington's marriage certificates are his biological father, John ELLIS, and the man who raised him, John PINDER.
The two Wellington ELLIS marriages in 1872 and 1889 are definitely the same Wellington ELLIS.
For anyone interested in the ELLIS / PINDER family; when John PINDER married Frances nee GLEDHILL, both John and Frances were widowed and had children from their first marriages. John and Frances PINDER then went on to have multiple children of their own. So, there are quite a lot of children and it takes a moment to work out which child came from which of the 3 marriages, especially since the children's names change from ELLIS to PINDER, and back again, depending on which census your looking at.
Rowan Tree :)
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Could this be Alice?
Deaths Mar 1878 (>99%)
Ellis Alice 23 Prestwich 8d 250
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Could this be Alice?
Deaths Mar 1878 (>99%)
Ellis Alice 23 Prestwich 8d 250
Thanks. That's a really good catch, but, unfortunately, I don't think this can be my Alice.
I bought the £3 version of this death certificate and it reads as follows:
17/12/1873 - Longroyd Bridge
Alice ELLIS - female - 22 years
Wife of John Henry ELLIS, Chimney climer
Phthisis Pulmonalis. Certified
Registered by: Mary Ann BINTLEY, present at death. Longroyd Bridge, Huddersfield
Registered: 17/12/1872
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What about this one?
ELLIS, ALICE 41
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 166
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What about this one?
ELLIS, ALICE 41
GRO Reference: 1892 J Quarter in TOXTETH PARK Volume 08B Page 166
Hi,
Apologies for my late reply. I've had such a busy weekend. I'm back on the case now, though.
That's another great suggestion for a death. The location is interesting as Alice had a strong connection to the Wirral and Liverpool and Toxteth is just across the Mersey from Birkenhead.
I've just been looking at the 1891 census to see if I can find the Alice in this death.
I've come up with the following:
53 Woodruff Street, Toxteth Park, Liverpool
Charles ELLIS - Head - M - 44 (c. 1847) - Custom Officer - Born Liverpool
Alice ELLIS - Wife - M - 38 (c. 1853) - Born Liverpool
Amelia ELLIS - Daughter - 11
Alice ELLIS - Daughter - 10
Charles ELLIS - Son - 8
Elizabeth ELLIS - Daughter - 7
John ELLIS - Son - 5
Emily ELLIS - Daughter - 4
Thomas INKESTER - Father-in-law - 72 - Born Liverpool
Elizabeth EDGAR - Lodger
James EDGAR - Lodger
Thomas EDGAR - Lodger
I've not been able to find the above Charles and Alice ELLIS on the 1901 census. I have, however, found the children. Charles & John ELLIS are living with an uncle and aunt; Arthur & Mary L. EDWARDS in Toxteth Park. Emily ELLIS is living with an uncle and aunt; Frederick & Annie Jane ELLIS. Elizabeth is a live-in servant and so on...
I haven't bought the Alice ELLIS death certificate, but from the above census information, I don't think she's my Alice. I am very grateful for the suggestion, though.
Rowan Tree :)
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I found both the 1872 and 1889 marriages on Ancestry and thankfully, the entries in the register are available to view.
Here are the details from the 1872 marriage:
Christ Church, Sowerby Bridge
09/11/1872
Married by banns
Wellington ELLIS - 21 - Bachelor - Finer(?) up at the Mill - Barkisland - John PINDEN (or PINDER) - Farmer
Alice HASPEY - 21 - Spinster - (blank) - Warley - Job HASPEY - Labourer
Both Wellington and Alice signed their own names.
Witnessed by John JACKSON and Catherine HASPEY
What surname was signed by Alice? HASPEY or ASPEY?
I'm wondering if we have to look for a second marriage if the bigamy and death allegations were true?
There are a handful of options for marriages of Alice ASPEY and deaths under respective married surnames between 1873 and 1889 in Lancashire.
I reckon she wouldn't use her married surname ELLIS!
It's a tedious task to check all of them but I'd be glad to help.
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You're ace! Thanks so much. I'm really grateful for your help.
I've attached the November 1872 marriage signature and the December 1872 witness signature. They're both Alice HASPEY.
This surname can be tricky, though. The spelling changes quite a bit. However, the closer to 1900 that you get, the more settled the spelling becomes. The final spelling is ASPEY.
I've also been looking at the witnesses on all the siblings marriages that I can find. I've seen multiple of Alice's siblings appearing as witnesses for each other.
Alice is the 5th of 14 children. I'm wondering if I'll see Alice crop up as a witness on a siblings marriage certificate (possibly with a new surname).
I'll post more about the siblings shortly.
Many thanks, Rowan Tree :)
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Alice's siblings and spouses:
Joseph ASPEY / ASPINALL 1843 - 1910 m. Emma HARDING at Chester, St. John the Baptist (Cheshire) in 1863 - Witnessed by Sarah ??INNES & Joseph DUTTON.
John ASPEY 1847 - 1895 m. Jane MARSHALL at Woodside, St. James (W. Yorkshire) in 1872 - Witnessed by Edward BENTLEY and Ann Elizabeth BENTLEY.
Catherine ASPEY 1848 - 1940 m. James BOARDMAN at Chadderton, Christ Church (Lancs) in 1874. I haven't seen the marriage cert. and don't know who the witnesses were.
Samuel ASPEY 1850 - 1912 m. Catherine DAVIES at Birkenhead, St. Mary (Wirral) in 1877. Witnessed by Thomas ?a??son and Ellen DAVIES.
Alice ASPEY 1852 - ? m. Wellington ELLIS at Sowerby Bridge, Christ Church (W. Yorkshire) in 1872. Witnessed by John JACKSON and Catherine HASPEY (sister of Alice).
Elizabeth ASPEY 1854 - 1926 m. Samuel BARNETT at Sowerby Bridge, Christ Church (W. Yorkshire) in 1872. Witnessed by Wellington ELLIS and Alice ELLIS (Elizabeth's brother-in-law & sister).
Martha ASPEY 1856 - 1906 m. Joseph BOWDEN at Hollinwood, St. Margaret of Antioch (Lancs) in 1880. Witnessed by William BIRCHALL and Ann BIRCHALL.
Thomas ASPEY 1858 - 1927 m. Harriet TURNER at Chadderton, Christ Church (Lancs) in 1883. I haven't seen the marriage cert. and don't know who the witnesses were.
Ellen ASPEY 1860 - ? I don't know if Ellen ever married. She had two children outside of wedlock.
Thomas William ASPEY 1880 - 1881
John ASPEY 1884 - ?
I don't know what happened to Ellen and her son, John, after the 1901 census.
Job ASPEY 1862 - 1923 m. Harriet Helen PICKETT at Tottenham, All Hallows (Middlesex) in 1892. Witnessed by Thomas PICKETT and Alice PLAYFORD.
William ASPEY 1864 - 1898 m. Sarah Jane ROYDS at Oldham, St. Mary (Lancs) in 1885. I haven't seen the marriage cert. and don't know who the witnesses were.
Mary ASPEY 1866 - 1908 m. Daniel ROYDS at Glodwick, St. Mark (Lancs) in 1885. Witnessed by James BOARDMAN and Eliza Ann HAGUE.
Nancy ASPEY 1868 - 1942 m. Charles PLATT at Chadderton, Christ Church (Lancs) in 1890. I haven't seen the marriage cert. and don't know who the witnesses were.
Margaret ASPEY 1870 - ? m. John MORRIS at Glodwick, St. Mark (Lancs) in 1891. Witnessed by Charles PLATT and Nancy PLATT (brother-in-law and sister of Margaret).
NOTE: I think Charles & Nancy PLATT, along with their daughter, MINNIE emigrated to the US.
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I've not found any possible marriages for Alice on FindMyPast with any variation of the name ASPEY or HASPEY.
I'm hunting through Ancestry now...
EDITED:
If there's a marriage on Ancestry, I haven't spotted it.
I'm going to try the name ELLIS for marriages and then have another look for possible death/burials.
RT
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https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/sources/G9X3-TQY
Father George DUTTON!
The tree has her surname ASTLEY but the marriage record has ASPEY
She was a widow and born around 1849. I couldn't find an Alice DUTTON born around that time who married a ----- ASPEY, ASTLEY, etc.
Surname First name(s) District Vol Page
Marriages Dec 1884 (>99%)
Aspey Alice Manchester 8d 330
LEAF Edward Manchester 8d 330
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Thanks :)
I think this marriage is quite tricky to place alongside other records, like the census, or potential birth records relating to any children this couple may have had.
I've got a feeling that LEAF is a fiendishly difficult name with many variations.
Has anyone been able to pinpoint this couple on the 1891 Census? Or has anyone got a birth or baptism that may relate to a child of Edward and Alice LEAF?
RT :)
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For anyone trying to search for the LEAF family, try the spellings of LEAFE and LAFE.
Edward LEAF may have been born in or near Woodborough, Nottinghamshire (8 miles north-east of Nottingham).
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Only death record I coudl find for Edward LEAF, b.c. 1852
Name: Age at Death (in years):
LEAF, EDWARD 71
GRO Reference: 1922 D Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 102
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Alice LEAF
Name: Age at Death (in years):
LEAF, ALICE 68
GRO Reference: 1921 D Quarter in SELBY Volume 09C Page 1183
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From "Find A Grave:"
Edward LEAF
Burial 25th May 1912
Philips Park Cemetery
Miles Platting
Manchester
There's, unfortunately, no bio with the entry (or a photo of a headstone).
But I might be able to find out a little more...
Oh, and this ties in, location wise, with the 1884 marriage.
NOTE - MODIFIED:
Extra details
Section DConsecrated
Grave 1101
Position 6
No age recorded
The other people in the grave and their positions:
1 James GARVIN
2 Arthur INGHAM
3 James ALKER
4 John RILEY
5 Edna KELLY
6 Edward LEAF
7 Harold GOODALL
8 Samuel HOLLAND
9 Sarah Ellen JONES
10 Alexander McKAY
It actually goes up to 37 separate individuals (none named LEAF, other than Edward).
There's a corresponding death reg. for a 1 year old Edward LEAF who the above burial must correspond with. Perhaps a relative of the Edward LEAF who married in 1884?
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Name: Age at Death (in years):
LEAF, EDWARD 1
GRO Reference: 1912 J Quarter in MANCHESTER Volume 08D Page 258
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The couple didn't have any children registered (surnames LEAF, LEAFE, LEAFF, LAFE and mother's maiden name ASPEY, DUTTON, and similar similar sounding/phonetic variations.).
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Edward and Alice LEAF are proving quite mysterious :-\
I think the deaths you suggested look like potential fits. Have you come across matching burials?
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Alice LEAF
Name: Age at Death (in years):
LEAF, ALICE 68
GRO Reference: 1921 D Quarter in SELBY Volume 09C Page 1183
Burial in the Parish of Carlton-juxta-Snaith (West Riding of Yorkshire)
Alice LEAF - 71 Brook Street, Selby - 5th Dec 1921 - age 68
*Modified to correct county
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Only death record I coudl find for Edward LEAF, b.c. 1852
Name: Age at Death (in years):
LEAF, EDWARD 71
GRO Reference: 1922 D Quarter in BRENTFORD Volume 03A Page 102
I'm pretty sure I've just found this Edward LEAF on the 1921 census.
He was born in Yorkshire and is living in Islesworth, Middlesex.
He's married to Elizabeth
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I am in Brazil and don't have access to many UK records.
Have you read these newspaper articles? I don't have a subscription. Maybe they say something about his marital status?
HALIFAX WEST HIDING COURT
— ALLEGED ASSAULT. - - Thomas Fairbank, delver, Greetland, was Charged with having unlawfally as- saulted Wellington Ellis, delver, of the same place, on April 3rd.—Complainant said he went into the Cherry Inn, Barkisland, where the defendant ...
Published: Saturday 14 April 1877
Newspaper: Halifax Courier
County: Yorkshire, England
HALIFAX WEST RIDING COURT
... Shaw, W. Rothwell, Esq , and H. A. Ridgway, Esq. CHARGE OF ASSAUL. Fairbank, delver, Barkisland, with assaulting Wellington Ellis, on the 3rd April. The complainant (for whom Mr. Holroyde appeared) said that he was in the Cherry Inn on the evening ...
Published: Saturday 21 April 1877
Newspaper: Halifax Courier
County: Yorkshire, England
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You're in Brazil! Wow! Prazer em te conhecer :)
I've read some of the newspaper articles featuring Wellington ELLIS, but I don't think I've read them all. From what I have read, it sounds like Wellington ELLIS and other members of his family were frequently getting themselves into bother. I'd wondered if this was why Alice left.
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Prazer em te conhecer também ;D
I think it could be interesting to look for other members of the family in the newspapers.
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That's good advice.
I'm going to put some more effort into newspaper research. I think I stopped too soon. There might be something very revealing just waiting for me to discover.
Thanks so much for all your amazing help :)
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You're welcome! I'll let you know if I find anything interesting.
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Burial in the parish of Carlton-juxta-Snaith (West Yorkshire)
Calton-juxta-Snaith was in the county of the West Riding of Yorkshire. Since 1974 it has been in North Yorkshire. (West Yorkshire was also created in 1974 and does not extend so far east.)
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......
I think I stopped too soon. There might be something very revealing just waiting for me to discover.
......:)
The above is what keeps us all going as genealogists......just one more record to look at, etc etc. I have a gt grandfather, Mum's grandfather who was known to her as 'Ireland's mystery man' when she was searching and I have not got much further. Mind you she also used to say 'He'll be found when he wants to be' or 'He'll be found when he is found'.....which is proof in a way of gift of the gab and Irish heritage. ;D
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MollyC,
Thanks for the clarification.
It's appreciated 😌
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shanreagh,
I like, "he'll be found when he wants to be."
I'm going to think that phrase when members of my family tree are proving elusive.
Rowan Tree 🌳
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'He'll be found when he wants to be' or 'He'll be found when he is found'.....
;D
Ancestors that do that to us, are a real pain in the Arboretum to me.
Leave us dangling with several options, but no way of confirming!! :)
Then I cannot see the Hood for the Trees!
I have found my family members mentioned in more and more documents and Deeds, but no confirmation. His 1815 Marriage was in two Yorkshire newspaper notices and implies he was of that place, where Presbyterianism had taken root by 1690 and then other Nonconformist sects, but few surviving Chapel records until 1790 and c.1812.
We traced some 18th Century Catholic records of the locality and made a formal request, but unfortunately their Archives did not seem to be geared up to deal with enquiries or take photographs, perhaps suggesting they wish to hang on to Copyright, or whatever reason.
Mark
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'He'll be found when he wants to be' or 'He'll be found when he is found'.....
;D
We traced some 18th Century Catholic records of the locality and made a formal request, but unfortunately their Archives did not seem to be geared up to deal with enquiries or take photographs, perhaps suggesting they wish to hang on to Copyright, or whatever reason.
Mark
This is frustrating. I feel for you and empathise.
The ASPEY line of my family is through my maternal grandad, who I was very close to.
My grandad was born and raised Roman Catholic. I'd like to know his baptism details. I've contacted the church where I'm 99% sure he was baptised but they've not acknowledged my enquiry. I thought that it's possible they get inundated with requests from family historians and haven't pursued the baptism for this reason. I very much want to be respectful of the church, but I'll admit to feeling disappointed.
Learning about my grandad's very early life is proving more important than I'd ever originally anticipated. DNA has shown that my grandad's paternal line isn't who we'd always believed it to be.
My grandad's surname was MOORE. His dad was from an Irish Catholic family, but it turns out that I'm not related to that family (or any other Irish family). My mum and cousin have had their DNA tested and we've been able to confirm this. It didn't take long to work out that my grandad's biological paternal line is through Samuel BARNETT and Elizabeth ASPEY.
Rowan Tree :)
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I thought I'd add an update with new information, in-case anyone else researching this family ever stumbles upon this thread.
As well as the mysterious Alice ASPEY / HASPEY b. 1852, I wasn't certain what happened to two of Alice's sisters. In my search for Alice, I've now uncovered what happened to the two other sisters, Ellen and Margaret.
Ellen b. 09/05/1860 in Claughton (parish of Bidston), Cheshire (Wirral).
Ellen arrived in Montreal, Quebec, Canada in May 1907. She's listed as married, but I don't believe she had been married at this point. She's certainly still using her maiden name at any rate.
Ellen was heading to Brantford, Ontario.
Ellen's son, John ASPEY, (born out of wedlock in 1884) was already in Canada. He arrived in Montreal, Quebec in September 1906.
Ellen appears on the Canadian 1911 Census married to Joseph DAVENPORT, b. 03/05/1859 in England (I've not worked out where yet).
Joseph died January 1929 in Brantford, Ontario.
Ellen died February 1938 in Brantford, Ontario.
Ellen's son, John ASPEY is worth a mention. B. 18/07/1884 in Ashton-under-Lyne, Lancs.
In Aug/Sept 1914, John joined the Canadian Over-Seas Expeditionary Force at Valcartier Camp, Quebec.
In July 1917, John is ironically back in England at Crowborough Camp in Sussex as a soldier during WW1.
John meets and marries his wife while in Sussex.
12/07/1917 - St. Saviour, Haverstock Hill, Hamstead.
John ASPEY to Ede MASON nee WICKENS (Ede was a widow).
Witnessed by William GARDNER and Alice GARDNER.
John gave his father as Hardy or Handy ASPEY (deceased), Mill-Hand. I don't know if this was a made-up name to hide illegitimacy, or if it bares any relation to John's actual father?
John, Ede, Ede's daughter from her first marriage, Phyllis Edith MASON, and John & Ede's son, John ASPEY, emigrate to Canada and arrive in New Brunswick in February 1929.
John d. 1965
Ede d. 1953
Phyllis, who married Robert Lloyd George GOOD, d. 1990
John Jn. d. 1963
I'll save Alice and Ellen's sister, Margaret, for my next post.
Rowan Tree :)
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Before I move onto Margaret ASPEY, could anyone help decipher John ASPEY's marriage cert?
On the residence part of the certificate it says, "Canadian Head (something?) Crowborough." Can anyone help with the third word?
Also, I've added the name John gave as his father. I think it says Hardy or Handy ASPEY. Does it say something different to anyone else?
Many thanks,
Rowan Tree :)
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Quarters
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Quarters
Of course! That lack of the line across the 't' foxed me.
Many thanks 😊
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Joseph DAVENPORT, father Joseph DAVENPORT, mother Mary Ann DICKINSON.
Name: Mother's Maiden Surname:
DAVENPORT, JOSEPH DICKINSON
GRO Reference: 1859 J Quarter in ALTRINCHAM UNION Volume 08A Page 161
Ellen OSPEY ;D and Joseph DAVENPORT married in Brantford, Canada, on 20 May 1907.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KSZH-DDS?lang=en
Ellen ASPEY DAVENPORT Daugher of Joseph Aspey & Mary Harley ??
Phyllis ELWELL (nee ASPEY) ??
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/213779173/ellen-davenport#view-photo=209490785
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Brilliant! Thanks :)
I'm smiling at the spelling OSPEY. I'll have to add that one to the list of variation spellings.
On Ellen DAVENPORT's death certificate it records her parents as Joseph ASPEY (Ellen's father was Job ASPEY) and Mary HARLEY (Ellen's mother was Martha DAVIES).
I thought this error could simply have been down to the fact that the person who registered the death (Jack ASPEY, I assume that's John, Ellen's son) had forgotten/couldn't remember and there wasn't anyone to ask and clarify with.
Phyllis ELWELL is interesting. When I first spotted the name Phyllis, I thought of Ellen's granddaughter, Phyllis Edith GOOD nee MASON who was born in 1916.
Phyllis and her husband, Robert divorced in 1943 (I think).
I'm wondering if Phyllis remarried. Robert L. G. GOOD definitely remarried.
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I found the following in The Expositor Newspaper, dated 24 May 1990:
ELWELL
Phyllis - At the Brantford General Hospital, on Tuesday, May 22, 1990, Phyllis Mason; beloved wife of Joseph Elwell, dear mother of Sharon Ingram and her husband, Jim; much loved by five grandchildren. A memorial service will be held at the Beckett - Glaves Family Funeral Centre, 88 Brant Avenue on Saturday at 1p.m., with Reverend Peter Aquilina officiating. Cremation.
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Excellent work! Can't wait to hear about Margaret ;D
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I wonder if Wellington's allegation that Alice was already dead in 1889 could be true, given that her brother Samuel named his daughter born in 1889, Martha Alice Aspey?
I have checked all marriages of Alice ASPEY between 1878 and 1884 (the others are after 1911) and the only one that is still a mystery is the one between Alice ASPEY (widow) to Edward LEAF in 1884. The marriage certificate says her father was George DUTTON, but I couldn't find a previous marriage DUTTON-ASPEY (and variations of these surnames).
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I wonder if Wellington's allegation that Alice was already dead in 1889 could be true, given that her brother Samuel named his daughter born in 1889, Martha Alice Aspey?
I have checked all marriages of Alice ASPEY between 1878 and 1884 (the others are after 1911) and the only one that is still a mystery is the one between Alice ASPEY (widow) to Edward LEAF in 1884. The marriage certificate says her father was George DUTTON, but I couldn't find a previous marriage DUTTON-ASPEY (and variations of these surnames).
That's quite interesting re. Samuel's daughter, Martha Alice.
Martha Alice ASPEY - birth reg. Jul/Aug/Sept 1888 Birkenhead. Daughter of Samuel ASPEY and Catherine nee DAVIES.
Samuel's mother was Martha, which is likely why Martha Alice was given the name Martha. Catherine's mother was named Catherine. Catherine ASPEY nee DAVIES did have a sister named Alice Ellen DAVIES, so it's possible that the name Alice was inspired by Catherine's sister or Samuel's sister (or both sisters).
Interesting side point:
John DAVIES, who was the father of Catherine ASPEY nee DAVIES, was the brother of Martha ASPEY nee DAVIES (mystery Alice ASPEY's mother). So, the marriage of Samuel ASPEY and Catherine DAVIES was between 1st cousins.
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Here are the details of Margaret ASPEY, the other sister of Alice who I found out about while searching for Alice.
Margaret ASPEY (also known as Margaretta and Madge) b. 25/09/1870 in Birkenhead.
22/12/1891 married John MORRIS at St. Mark, Glodwick, Lancs.
Daughter Minnie MORRIS b. 09/04/1898 in Oldham.
Margaret and John MORRIS adopted Harold ASPEY b. 20/04/1890 in Chadderton who was the son of William ASPEY and Sarah Jane ROYDS. Harold was orphaned when his parents died in 1897 & 1898. The family of four appear on the 1901 census.
John, Margaret/Madge & Minnie MORRIS arrive in New York in September 1901.
Harold ASPEY arrives in New York in April 1903.
On the 1910 US Census, John, Madge, Minnie and Harold are living together in Bloomsburg, Pennsylvania.
Harold ASPEY married Mary Ellen FLAHERTY, and after Mary Ellen's death, Rose Anna TITTLER.
Harold died in Johnstown, Pennsylvania in 1956.
John and Madge MORRIS live their whole lives in Bloomsburg but make at least 3 trips back to England in 1904, 1931, and 1937.
John died in 1940.
Madge died in 1954.
Madge's obituary mentions her being the last of 13 children. Job and Martha ASPEY did have 13 children, but Job had been widowed very young and had a son, Joseph, from his first marriage. I wonder if Margaret/Madge ever knew about her eldest brother?
Minnie married Walter Clark ANDREWS in 1931 and died in 1978. Her last address was in Bloomsburg, the town her parents lived in.
Minnie went to "Bloomsburg State Normal School" and appears in a year book. See attached image.
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I have checked all marriages of Alice ASPEY between 1878 and 1884 (the others are after 1911) and the only one that is still a mystery is the one between Alice ASPEY (widow) to Edward LEAF in 1884. The marriage certificate says her father was George DUTTON, but I couldn't find a previous marriage DUTTON-ASPEY (and variations of these surnames).
I've tried to look into this a little more. Unfortunately, I haven't turned anything up. Mr. & Mrs. LEAF are very mysterious indeed ???
I did spot an Ancestry tree with the LEAF marriage and got in touch with the owner of the tree. They didn't have any other information, but said they'd get back in touch if anything turned up.
Fingers crossed :)
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Thanks for sharing Madge's story, it looks like she and her family had a nice time in the US :) and Minnie looks lovely :-*