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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: royd on Thursday 22 May 25 10:21 BST (UK)

Title: Conundrum
Post by: royd on Thursday 22 May 25 10:21 BST (UK)
I am looking for the birth of Elizabeth Ann Blackwell, who married Joseph Farrimond in Wigan in 1919. No father is given on the marriage certificate.

I have Elizabeth & Joseph on the 1921 census and 1939 register, where she gives her date of birth as 24/5/1896. They are still in Wigan.

Working backwards, on the 1911 census, I am looking at Elizabeth Ann Blackwell, adopted daughter and George Blackwell, adopted son of William and Amelia Jane Dearden. Both Elizabeth and George are stated to have been born in Salford.

On the 1901, George Blackwell is with this same family as nephew with the spelling of Durden, not Dearden. No sign of Elizabeth Ann.

George marries an Ethel Bryce, with no father stated for him.

Looking for a link with the Dearden (Durden) name, I found a marriage between a John Henry Blackwell and an Elizabeth Ann Durden in 1883, but haven't gone far with that.

I have been on Ancestry, LOPC, GRO etc., but I guess I have missed something, somewhere!

Knowing how good some of you are at spotting the obvious, I thought I would pass it over for perusal, please. Many thanks.


Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: LizzieW on Thursday 22 May 25 10:50 BST (UK)
Could it be that the children were born to Amelia Jane Dearden before she married.  Maybe look for her marriage to William Dearden to find out her maiden name, or as George Blackwell is shown as nephew on a census, perhaps his mother was a sister of Amelia Jane Dearden.
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: Kay99 on Thursday 22 May 25 10:52 BST (UK)
Could this be George's birth??

BLACKWELL, GEORGE        DURDEN     
GRO Ref 1889  D Qter  SALFORD  Volume 08D  Page 154

And Bapt ??

George Blackwell
Baptism Date    24 Nov 1889
Baptism Place    Salford, St Phillip, Lancashire, England
Father    George Blackwell - Servant
Mother    Elizabeth Blackwell

I can't see him in 1891 at the moment :-\
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: royd on Thursday 22 May 25 11:29 BST (UK)
Thanks.  Yes, I am wondering if there is a connection with either William or Amelia.  That's a line to explore.

I saw that birth and baptism, and wondered the same thing. 
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: ciderdrinker on Thursday 22 May 25 12:48 BST (UK)
Hi
Bear with me because I know some of the details are quite vague.
William Dearden/Durden is born 19th July 1855 in Manchester and christened at the Cathedral 30.12.1855
His parents are Joseph Durden and Elizabeth nee Trayner.
There is a younger sister Elizabeth Ann Durden born Dec qtr 1857 Manchester.
Joseph Durden married Eliabeth Trayner at Newton All Saints 17th Sep 1854.
fathers William a carrier and Michael Trayner weaver.Joseph is a carrier and witnesses Nicholas Beckett and Maria Trayner.
Unfortunatley it looks like Elizabeth Dearden died age 24 Sep 1858 Manchester and the family were split up.
The daughter Elizabeth is probably living with her grandmother Eliza Durden widow age 52 , in Grove St in 1861
1871 she is a nurse girl at Joshua and Amelia Entwhistles in Welcombe St
1881 with Uncle William and Aunt Caroline 344 Queens Road.

It is the younger sister Elizabeth Ann Durden who married John Henry  Blackwell
Hulme 17 Sep 1883

John Henry 24 marble mason 47 Lavender St s of John marble mason
Elizabeth Ann 23  34 Victoria St d of Joseph dec joiner.
wit Fanny Thompson and Fanny Blackwell

And as you have it George Blackwell is born Dec 1889 in Salford.

Which is where we hit problems
There is no birth registration for Elizabeth Ann in 1896
John Henry Blackwell and Elizabeth Ann are not together on the 1891 and 1901 censuses
John Henry Blackwell seems to have died 2 Oct  1884 buried Manchester Southern Cemetery ,Chortlton Cum Hardy ,packer born 1859 .Which fits with his birth to parents John and Ann Blackwell  19.6.1859 and his appearances on the 1861-1881 censuses.
George Blackwell's possible baptism 24.11.1889 st Phillips Salford
George s of George and Elizabeth Blackwell 24 Ordsall Lane  servant.
I think after John's death in 1884 Elizabeth found herself a new partner and her two children were with him.The Christening for George looks just a little too pat.Was the father just made up?
I can't find Elizabeth Ann Blackwell /Durden after her marriage on the censuses or with a death.But I am confident that she is Elizabeth Ann Blackwell's mother.

And finally just to add to the confusion there is this
Elizabeth Ann Blackwell bapt 19.6.1895 born 26th May 1895 at Rhyl
parents John Henry Blackwell and Elizabeth 10 Greenfield Place labourer Rhyl .GRO mmn Halewood and no connections to the Deardon/Durdens at all .A whole new family born in Rhyl.Different grandparents etc.
But it must be a coincidence .
Because if you go back to Elizabeth's marriage 1919 she does leave her father's name blank and there would be no need to do that if she was the one in Rhyl.
I think she must be George Blackwell's sister and Elizabeth Durden's daughter ,born after Jophn Henry Blackwell's death.

What does everyone else think?

Ciderdrinker
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: royd on Thursday 22 May 25 15:34 BST (UK)
Well, I for one, think you have done an amazing job.  I had seen the name Traynor last night, but haven't done anything with it due to time constraints.  I had noticed the Welsh Elizabeth when I first looked at GRO, but thought it would be too far-fetched, although many mining families did move from Wales to Wigan at that time.

Very grateful indeed.  R.
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: softly softly on Thursday 22 May 25 15:45 BST (UK)
I really enjoy rc's who go out on a limb to try and solve an issue. I was going down a similar route as yourself ciderdrinker but had not got anywhere near your thinking. I do believe you are correct with what you have.Well done.

I have just found her GRO birth, 24.5.1896 ;D

SS
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: softly softly on Thursday 22 May 25 15:55 BST (UK)
Here she is in all her glory, surname HYDE

SS
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: Kay99 on Thursday 22 May 25 16:36 BST (UK)
Fascinating developments.   We had visitors but was just about to post this birth cert - no father named!

Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: ciderdrinker on Friday 23 May 25 11:22 BST (UK)
Lovely Job
Well done!
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: royd on Friday 23 May 25 12:06 BST (UK)
Oh, my word. I am so glad I posted on here. You are all tremendous. Many, many thanks. I only learned about this lady last week at a funeral when a friend said she hadn't been able to find her grandmother anywhere. The rest is history! 

I am very, very, grateful.  R.
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: softly softly on Friday 23 May 25 12:08 BST (UK)
royd, do you wish for any details of half brother George born 1889.

SS
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: royd on Friday 23 May 25 12:22 BST (UK)
Hi, I honestly don't know at the moment.  I will ask the person and see what she says.  Many thanks.  R.
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: royd on Saturday 24 May 25 10:43 BST (UK)
Hi again.

I have spoken to the person, and yes, she would like to learn about George.  I did take a quick look a couple of days ago and think he may have died in a mining accident.  I would be grateful if that could be clarified.  Thank you.  R.
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: Ladyhawk on Saturday 24 May 25 12:00 BST (UK)

I have spoken to the person, and yes, she would like to learn about George.  I did take a quick look a couple of days ago and think he may have died in a mining accident.  I would be grateful if that could be clarified. 

I'm sure when SS is back on line they will be able to provide you with further info.  :)

Image of marriage on Anc*y Wigan, England, Church of England Marriages, 1754-1926

2nd August 1915 Platt Bridge, St Nathaniel, Lancashire
George Blackwell 24, Collier, Res. 580 Liverpool Rd
father name/occupation  blank but noted (deceased)
one witness Elizabeth BLACKWELL
Married Ethel BRYCE

BLACKWELL, ETHEL   mmn BRYCE
GRO Reference: 1917  M Quarter in WIGAN  Volume 08C  Page 109
   
BLACKWELL, EVA   mmn BRYCE
GRO Reference: 1920  M Quarter in WIGAN  Volume 08C  Page 181   

This could be George as Ethel is a widow by 1921
   
George Blackwell Age   30
Accident Date   5 Oct 1920
Accident Place   Wigan, Lancashire,
Employer   Moss Hall Coal Co
Occupation   Collier
Description   Internal Injuries By Prop Striking Him.
UK, Coal Mining Accidents and Deaths Index, 1878-1951 - no image to view on Anc'y

George Blackwell Death Age 30 Dec 1920 Wigan Lancashire Volume   8c Page   22
A digital image of death certificate is available from GRO cost £3.00
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: royd on Saturday 24 May 25 13:43 BST (UK)
Many thanks. R.
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: softly softly on Saturday 24 May 25 16:14 BST (UK)
Not a lot to add really, Ladywawk as per usual very comprehensive with research. George's wife Ethel went on to remarry Jessie Bellis in 1934 but he sadly died 1938. Ethel a widow in 1939 war register, she died aged 64 in 1958.

SS
Title: Re: Conundrum
Post by: royd on Saturday 24 May 25 17:29 BST (UK)
Thank you. Poor Ethel didn't have much luck with husbands, did she? Regards.  R.