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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: issi on Monday 19 May 25 07:55 BST (UK)
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Hi, this card is of Clarence Lee, missing presumed dead at the battle of Loos. What I can't make out is what the handwriting on the card says. I assume it's french. I've tried this in the war section in case it was a standard phrase but no one could suggest anything. Thought I'd try here in case anyone's any good at French handwriting...any help very welcome.
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May be Négatif envoyé 18? .11.15. (Meaning 18 november 1915 ) demande recu (should be written reçue if it means "request received "or reçu if it means "asks for a receipt").
From which french documents does the card come from?
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See:
https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story/93619 (https://livesofthefirstworldwar.iwm.org.uk/story/93619)
Négatif envoyé indicates that the person referred to was not registered as a prisoner.
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Hi, it's a Red Cross prisoners of war card - he wasn't a prisoner though, was missing in action, this looks like a record of a request for information from his father at the time, if I read the site's guides aright
https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Details/5810442/3/2/
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Aha! Thank you @joger, you're probably right! many thanks :) :)
From the red cross site:
2. Cards about the requests from the families
These cards were established in Geneva by the Prisoners of War International Agency. Each card for each person mentioned in the lists that the Agency received from the belligerents countries was established.
includes:
Reference number of the original letter sent by the family
(directs to no other document, because during the war the original letters were discarded once the card being set up)
Last name and First name
Service number
Missing circumstances as indicated by the family
Address of the family
ICRC inquiry summary
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From which french documents does the card come from?
It's an ICRC index card (Switzerland, hence the French).
Private Clarence Lee 14543 8th Battalion the Devonshire Regiment was declared presumed killed in action on 25 September 1915, having arrived in France exactly two months earlier. He is commemorated on the Loos Memorial (panels 35 - 37). He was posthumously awarded the 1915 Star, the British War Medal and the Victory Medal.
He was born in Bacup, Lancs c. 1895. Parents John Alfred and Annie Lee of 51 Knowlwood Road, Todmorden.
I think he was almost certainly killed during the first day's fighting at the Battle of Loos (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Loos) in which the British used chlorine gas, but due to the weather conditions, the gas had more effect of the British troops than on the Germans. The 8th Devonshires lost 619 casualties during the first day. They had virtually no experience of trench warfare and all their officers were inexperienced.
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https://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/fr/loos-en-gohelle
https://www.archivespasdecalais.fr/Decouvrir/Chroniques-de-la-Grande-Guerre/Histoires-de-la-Grande-Guerre/La-bataille-de-Loos-en-Gohelle
Terrible battle
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https://www.cheminsdememoire.gouv.fr/fr/loos-en-gohelle
https://www.archivespasdecalais.fr/Decouvrir/Chroniques-de-la-Grande-Guerre/Histoires-de-la-Grande-Guerre/La-bataille-de-Loos-en-Gohelle
Merci
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Todmorden & District News, 26 Nov 1915
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Thanks everyone, I already have the newspaper articles, but I really appreciate you posting them - if I hadn't had them I'd be really over the moon right now :)
His father, a journalist, at the request of the town council, went on to write the limited edition book "Todmorden and the Great War". Must have been hard for him to do.
Thank you for those who posted other links too, much appreciated :)
A rough summary (I'm not an expert):
In terms of casualties, the Devonshires were particularly hard-hit. The British officialdom were determined to use gas (1st time for the Brits, the Germans had already used gas so it was 'ok' for us to do so) and released it even though they were advised against it due to the prevailing conditions, by the Royal Engineers that had manufactured it. On release it hung around so our troops had to advance through it. Also the Germans were dug in deeper underground so it affected them less.
As it happens, my grandfather on the other side of my family tree was gassed when he transferred from the Red Cross to the Royal Engineers, Special Brigade in 1916(they were grabbing anyone with a chemistry background to work in the gas-making part of the army). The family tale is that it was an accident while carrying a gas cylinder (so not in action). Messed up his lungs for the rest of his life.
If you're interested in this side of the war I found "Chemical Soldiers: British Gas Warfare in World War I" by Donald Richter useful
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Yes, the use of chlorine gas was one of several errors made by the British during this attack which led to many lives being lost needlessly. However I doubt if Clarence was killed by the gas as his body would have remained intact and could have been recovered if that had been the case. I think it more likely that he was killed by the shelling, which again may have been from British guns as the coordination of the barrage was not good, or he was buried in a crater. The Sappers blew up two large mines under the forward German trenches in the early stages of the attack which destabilised the ground.