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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Nickjwatts on Thursday 08 May 25 22:10 BST (UK)
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Hi everyone,
This is my first post so I do apologise if it's in the wrong place in the forum!
I've been quite successful so far when looking up my ancestors records, but there is one area that I am struggling to get my head around, and where to search next... and this is merchant navy records of the 1920s and 30s.
Basically I am looking up the records of my great-grandfather and I started to search this topic when I found out he was a 'ships cook' in the merchant navy, and was admitted to the Dreadnought Navy Hospital. This had his 'previous ship' in 1927 as Port Melbourne, and after a bit of research online I was able to get the crew list from the archives centre in Newfoundland.
I then found two documents on Find My Past, his CR1 record and CR2. To be honest, from looking online I am still a bit confused as to what these documents really mean, and any help in explaining would be appreciated! I think the CR2 is foreign voyages, but after asking the National Archives numerous times (and simply getting sent the same webpage link...) I've given up trying again! I hope I've done this correctly, but I've added both the CR1 and CR2 to this post... any help in translating the record(s) info would be appreciated!
One thing I can see from the CR2 (in the bottom left corner) is that my ancestor was on a ship named Doric Star until 1927... but Newfoundland sadly said this was the home trade agreement (?) and not international (which is what they have) so I am currently unable to see any earlier crew lists.
I then looked up the other two ships from 1939 (Jamica Pioneer & Kirkland), but even though the crew lists are listed as at the National Archives they have said they can't see his entry. Unfortunately I have now hit a dead end even though I have the foreign voyage ships clearly written on the CR2 doc... any advice as to what I am doing wrong, and how I can pick up the trail again, would also be appreciated!
And lastly... I am reading all sorts of information online about CR10 documents and 'seaman's pouches' but I have no idea where to start. My great-grandfather retired just before WWII (I think?) in 1939, so am I right in thinking he won't have a CR10 record? Also, I have tried looking at whether he has a 'seaman's pouch' record, but is the CR documents technically the same thing? If not, can you search these online? I asked the National Archives as it says they have 500,000 records surviving, but I wasn't sure if they have all been digitalised on the NA website and Find My Past, and if I already have the only surviving records.
My hope is that I may find a set of records for him, and perhaps a picture, but I presume this is wishful thinking!
Any advice would be greatly appreciated! Nick Watts
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If it's any help my grandfather was born 'Charles Walter Wheatley Watts' on 23rd June 1875. For some unknown reason he started calling himself 'Charles Frederick Watts' in the late 1890's and by the 1920s (when in the merchant navy) was back as Charles Walter Watts. Any help would be appreciated.
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A very warm welcome to Rootschat.
When checking Merchant Service records I go to -
https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/help-with-your-research/research-guides/abbreviations-merchant-seamens-records/
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Lloyds Register 1939 -
https://archive.org/details/HECROS1939ST/page/n483/mode/2up
https://archive.org/details/HECROS1939ST/page/n483/mode/2up
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Lloyd's Register 1927
https://archive.org/details/HECROS1927ST/page/n329/mode/2up
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There was a link in this thread:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=355889.
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Thank you! The National Archives link is the one I usually get sent, but I am still unsure about a few things.
I guess the main questions are:
- What exactly are the CR1s / CR2s / CR10s?
- Why am I unable to find my relatives record on the logbooks of the ships written on the CR2 doc?
- are the seaman's pouches different to the CR1/2/10s and the Find My Past records?
- we're CR10s issued to Merchant Seaman who retired before 1939?
- are the seaman's pouches searchable on the National Archives website (seems unlikely with 500,000 records) or, again, are these the same as the CR docs and just called two different things at times
I'm really eager to see if any other Merchant Navy individual records exist for my relative Charles Walter Watts, and if possible any tips on picking up the trail again regarding the crew lists
Many thanks again! Nick
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Just reading the link again and this one has the CR info, thank you so much! Just looking through now... much appreciated :)
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Hello Nick,
CR1, 2 and 10 cards are from the Fourth Register of Seamen otherwise known as the Central Index Register. He will not have a CR10 unless he served between 1918-1921.
CR2 cards record foreign voyages so I am not sure what Newfoundland mean when they say he was HT articles. That card indicates if correctly written up than he was foreign at the time. The otherside of the CR2 also has an engagement date of 25 October 1925 so obviously sailed on previous voyages.
Did you ask TNA Kew to check this file BT 381/353 (1939 Crew Agreement for JAMAICA PIONEER) which I believe will be the key to finding his service back to 1927.
Not all seaman's pouches survive unfortunately and appears his didn't so it will be unlikely you will find a photo in MN records.
Regards
Hugh
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Thank you so much Hugh
Yes, I hadn't thought of that before regarding Newfoundland saying they had international trade, and Doris Star being listed on the CR2 (which is for foreign voyages). This is what they said -
"...He lists Doric Star as previous but I can’t find him in our 1926 or 27 agreements.
It might be another long shot but contact the National Archives for Doric Star 1926 and 27. We only have international voyage agreements but Watts was employed on home trade in 1927. Sometimes the home trade and international agreements are held in different archives..."
In regard to Jamica Pioneer I paid for the NA to do a check on the 1939 records for BT 381/353 and also 1939 Kirkland crew list (BT 381/418) but in both cases they said his name wasn't found, which I was very surprised as this detail is clearly listed on the CR2 record
It's very frustrating as I have the names of 3 ships that Charles Walter Watts was listed as crew, plus dates, but even then I seem to have drawn a blank!
Best regards, Nick
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Hi Nick,
With regard to KIRKLAND and JAMACIA PIONEER - I find it strange that on both you got a negative.
The ship's Official Logbook which (includes the crew agreements) cover a whole year and has a lot of sections to it - the crew agreements being only one. It is important that the person doing the checking knows what they are looking for. He is engaged on JAMAICA PIONEER [assuming that official number is correct] on 12 January 1939 so a look at the first voyage around that date is required. It would always be best to be able to visit TNA (I know this is a problem for many people including me) and you have to rely on the person doing the check. All I will say is that I have been in your shoes and getting someone else to look came up with the goods.
Regards
Hugh
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Thanks Hugh
Really appreciate your advice. After paying money to TNA research service I was really disappointed to not get anything, especially as I was quite hopeful of the outcome (I wouldnt have paid up front with the possibility of losing money otherwise!)
I'm going to have a think how I proceed with this as, as you said, there is every possibility TNA have simply missed his entry. Unfortunately I also don't live locally to TNA so I will have a look at what options I have (if any), but frustratingly I doubt the research service will try looking again without me paying for the privilege, which could again draw a blank
Thanks again for your replies and advice, it is much appreciated! Best regards, Nick W