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Research in Other Countries => United States of America => US Lookup Requests => Topic started by: dweber1429 on Monday 05 May 25 13:12 BST (UK)
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Hello,
Please help me break thru a brick wall? William John Sullivan and Catherine O'Shea.
Records show they were each born in Ireland. However, I can't find records that identify the town/county. William and Catherine are popular names among Irish immigrants in NYC during this time. Here are the details I know:
William John Sullivan:
B. 25 Mar 1860 Ireland. Arrived NYC Jul 1873 according to a request for a duplicate Nat'l card. Haven't found passenger list but he would have been 13 when he arrived. Estimated marriage to Catherine (var. spellings) between 1882-1885. NYC Vital Historical Records doesn't have a marriage. I can't identify a church they might have attended. D. 29 Sep 1936 on Bleecker St in NYC. They lived in several places but always in and around Greenwich Village. Only his Death Cert suggests his parents were William and Sarah Sullivan (nee Simpson). Can't find an obit.
Catherine / Katherine O'Shea /Shea
B. 6 Jun 1862 Ireland. Var. Census shows her arrival 1880-1885. If true, she was 18-20yrs old. I have 3 possible passenger lists but no way to single out the correct "Kate." Her immigration timing makes the 1880 Census an unlikely source and 1890 she was married with children. D. 7 Jan 1932 at home 143 W 10th St., NYC. Death Cert shows father as Denis O'Shea. No mother listed
Their children:
Edward (1886-1919) never married. Dies of TB 304 Bleecker St.
Helen (1889-1935). Married Paul Xiques.
Lillian (1892-1973). never married - Owned a beauty parlor on 14th st.
Florence (1893-1895) died as a child
Catherine (1895-1951) Married Frederick O'Donnell
William John "Dewey" (1898-1969) Married Marion Kemp. Moves with to Berkeley Heights, NJ
Celia Sullivan (1900-1943) Married James Thorne Smith. Moved to Berkeley Heights, NJ
Harold Sullivan (1902-1936) Married Mae Virtue. Shot & killed in front of his club.
William/Dewey was my grandfather. My family has been trying to break this wall for decades. I'm hoping new resources have become available that, as a new genealogist, I'm not using effectively or know about.
Would be so grateful for any direction or information.
THANKS in advance for your help
Diane
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What do the census records from 1900-1930 say about William & Catherine's immigration status? If naturalization records exist, they could be helpful.
If they were Catholic, Find My Past has parish marriages for Manhattan and some other nearby areas. I didn't see any likely matches for your couple, but it may be worth checking in the future. They also have some baptism records. It's a subscription site, but it's searchable.
If you haven't done so already, DNA testing might be an option if you or other family members are biological descendants of this couple.
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Hi Shellyesq,
Thanks for responding.
Ancestry had William's court request for a duplicate naturalization card. This provided his arrival & birth dates. Also, he applied at the Court of Common Pleas in NYC. Unfortunately, the court archives were sent to NARA. Ultimately NARA told me they didn't have the original Petition doc. I recently found a 1917 voter registration that says Catherine naturalized thu marriage, as expected during this time.
No idea about religion. The Greenwich Village Historical Society lists all the churches. I'm hoping one of these will have W&C's marriage. My DNA journey opened a terrific conversation among the few Sullivan descendants left and we've been sharing our research.
Any thoughts or advice about FindMyPast vs MyHeritage vs RootsIreland?
PLEASE, keep the ideas coming. I'm still learning how to do this effectively and grateful for all advice
Thanks again
Diane
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Hi -
Are you sure that Edward is the oldest child? What did Catherine say in 1900 and 1910 for "how many children, how many living?" They were probably married within a year or two before the oldest child's birth. Another reason I ask is because, if those are all their children, then they didn't name any of them after their parents.
Can you find birth records for the children? Do they give the address where they were born?
https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/
They were probably attending the nearest church to where the child was born. Most children were born at home.
Catherine O'Shea couldn't marry until she arrived, so you can cut that immigration window down by two years. The passenger manifests for that era almost never tell you anything about place of origin, but still worth a look. Every so often I have seen a manifest that includes a more specific location than just the country. (But maybe at a different port of entry, I don't remember.)
If William arrived at age 13, then he arrived with parents, or at least with family. Can you find them?
Catherine much more likely to be on her own - 18 to 20 is when you'd leave to find work.
Are any known relatives in the same area of NYC? If so, work on their families as thoroughly as if they were your own.
Any boarders or lodgers on the censuses named Sullivan or Shea? City directories are tough to work with, but if you find your William in one, are there any other Sullivans or Sheas at that same exact address? If it were a rarer name, I'd say same street, but not with Sullivan or Shea.
does the DNA point to any specific areas of Ireland?
There were an awful lot of Sullivans in Cork. but not many Simpsons.
You can put two surnames into this site, one at a time, and see where they overlap. But get it right the first time because he only allows one search per day, I think. A different browser might work but it looks like he might have tightened that up also since I tried it last. I wish I had taken a screen shot of the results for you because I can't repeat the search.
https://www.johngrenham.com/surnames/
edited to add:
The second set of results at that site shows you the overlap of the two surnames. If I remember right, there were a lot of places where they both show up, so not a lot of help, but worth a look
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Simpson is the unusual name in the bunch.
Who was the informant on William's death record? Not Catherine who'd be the most likely to get both parents' names right. Could the informant have got William's father's name wrong? It has happened. And I've seen the "replacement" name be the deceased own name or his oldest brother. Like the informant took the best guess he could.
But "Simpson" is a name you wouldn't forget. I'd bet more on that being correct.
The reason I ask is because I looked at familysearch for any Sullivan born in Ireland 1850 to 1870 with father named __ Sullivan and mother: Sarah Simpson
There are three records for a couple Jeremiah Sullivan and Sarah Simpson - births in Bandon, Co Cork 1864 to 1868.
and a marriage of a Maria Sullivan b 1855, married NY County in 1881
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24S3-9L7?lang=en
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/GYJ5-BB1
I'd would want to know who Maria was.
try the same method - widening your search - at
https://search.findmypast.ie/search-world-records/ireland-roman-catholic-parish-baptisms and elsewhere.
I don't value myheritage highly. I haven't seen any records there that aren't at ancestry. They say on the Irish forums that rootsireland.ie is the best for Irish research. But you're not there yet solidly enough to justify a subscription right now, I don't think.
Findmypast will let you at least search for free, as Shelly mentioned. I don't know about rootsireland.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/ has the civil records for Ireland, but they don't start until 1865 except for Protestant marriages - forgot when they started. But I'd bet heavily that Sullivan - O'Shea were Catholic.
Still you might find later siblings on that site, if you get to that stage.
edited to add
And there is also the possibility that William and Catherine's families lived within walking distance of each other in Ireland. People went where they knew people.
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What was William's occupation? Was it unusual enough to distinguish him from other William Sullivans in the city directory or in a newspaper article? Are there any articles about them - not likely, but worth a look. Did he get an obituary or just a death notice? Was he a member of any fraternal organizations that might be a hint to where he was from? If an obit, did it mention relatives?
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There were two other births that I wondered if they might belong to this couple. William Sullivan and Catherine/Katherine O'Shea as parents, William's occupation as shipping clerk fits with the other births, and one is in the Greenwich Village area and the other is also in lower Manhattan.
Anna Sullivan, b. 25 Nov. 1895 https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/958823
Elizabeth Sullivan, b. 23 May 1891 https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/556706
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On www.fultonhistory.com, there is an article in the New York Sun from 30 Sep. 1936 that lists William as William H. Sullivan, 75 years old, and says he was found to be dead of natural causes in a hallway at 365 Bleecker Street and mentions that he was the father of Harold, the night club owner who had been killed on September 21. There is also a shorter version of that article in the New York Evening Post from the same day. I did a Boolean search for "william h. sullivan" and bleecker and 1936, and those should be the first two results.
Also, there are various articles on that site about Harold's death.
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There were two other births that I wondered if they might belong to this couple. William Sullivan and Catherine/Katherine O'Shea as parents, William's occupation as shipping clerk fits with the other births, and one is in the Greenwich Village area and the other is also in lower Manhattan.
Anna Sullivan, b. 25 Nov. 1895 https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/958823
Elizabeth Sullivan, b. 23 May 1891 https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/556706
So Edward was the oldest child, since those records list number of children and number alive. Unless there was a miscarriage or stillborn child that she wasn't counting.
I looked for the marriage at https://www.italiangen.org/ and didn't find it. I looked for all 5 boroughs from 1882 to 1886.
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1891 City Directory
3 men named Wm Sullivan, clerk
at 890 Boulevard
at 1384 3rd Ave
at 115 Washington Place
1892
Wm Sullivan, clerk 18 Beach
others at
890 Boulevard
1384 3rd Ave
122 E 113th
311 W 13th
assuming that is him at 18 Beach in 1892, then that eliminates 2 of the 3 addresses in 1891, because those men are still at the same addresses, leaving 115 Washington Place as the only possible address for your William in 1891. - assuming he was listed in the first place. You can work backward and forward that way.
I didn't find any other Sullivan or Shea or O'Shea at 18 Beach in 1892. I didn't check in 1891 since I did that year first but wasn't sure which was your William.
Close enough to to take a better look at, if you can find these people:
1892 City Directory
?? Jeremiah O'Shea at 26 Beach
?? Margaret O'Shea, widow, 22 Beach
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John Grenham's site must have a 24 hour time out, since I couldn't do the search today - a new day but less than 24 hours since the last search.
If you get two tries at that site, try crossing Simpson with Shea, on the chance that the two families were from the same civil parish. It really won't help you know where your people are from, but it's interesting and it might narrow down the haystack in which you are looking for the needle.
But the only real way to do it is to find something on the US records that ID's the birth place.
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stevemorse.org has a way to see the manifest of every ship that arrived. You can narrow it down to July 1873 and see if you find William. I think the start page is one of these, but I'm not positive. I haven't used it in a while.
https://stevemorse.org/ellis/mmfs.html
https://stevemorse.org/ellis/boatfs.html
But there is always the chance that William did not remember the right month or even year. Still I trust the naturalization papers a lot more that whatever they say on the censuses.
There is a William Sullivan who arrived May 3, 1873 on the SS Denmark with parents Timothy? and Mary, but that is the only one that comes up for that year.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVR3-VHYH?lang=en
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It seems like a number of the family members (at least the parents, Harold, and Helen per their death certificates) were buried at Mount Olivet cemetery in Queens. If you haven't done so already, you could see if the cemetery could provide you with a list of who is buried in the plot(s) with each of them. https://www.nycmoc.com/contact Sometimes that will yield a relative you didn't know about.
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Thank you ALL!! These are amazing and I'll follow up on all your ideas today, make a comprehensive list of all your ideas and start researching!! I'll let you know what I find.
So grateful for your leads... I was truly beginning to give up. Ya'll are amazing
I'm headed to Ireland and Scotland in September. I'll visit Edinburgh Scotland and Cavan County Ireland for the Kemp/Latimer side of my family. I'm really hoping I can crack something for the Sullivan / O'Shea side.
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I just found your tree.
The Kate Shea arrival in 1882 -
Could Kate have been traveling with one of the women listed above or below her? Where did they go and where were they from, if you can find them?
Marriage of Wm Sullivan to Sara Connor in 1839 - There would need to be a previous marriage of a Sarah Simpson to a Mr Connor. Is there one? I don't know if a woman's second marriage was recorded on the church registers under her married or maiden name. I think it was the married name with a "formerly" added.
It would have been nice if one of the witnesses to that marriage was named Simpson.
It is really too bad you can't find William in 1880.
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Regarding the religion question, I looked at the marriages of the children.
Kathleen married by city clerk - https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/8810346
Harold married by minister George Alexander of 47 University Place - https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/9509772 This minister appears to be Presbyterian. https://genealogytrails.com/ny/saratoga/bios.html
William Jr. married by clergyman Laurence Hosie with residence address in Brooklyn https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/9486639
It looks like Laurence Hosie appeared at various churches, but was mentioned in reference to Judson Memorial Church in newspapers and here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judson_Memorial_Church That fits with the location of the family.
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Regarding the religion question, I looked at the marriages of the children.
That might have done it. :)
Protestant marriages were recorded earlier.
Are these his parents?
Marriage record for Jeremiah Sullivan and Sarah Simpson
Group registration ID: 3216521
SR District/Reg Area: Cork
Party 1 Name: Jeremiah Sullivan
Party 2 Name: Sarah Simpson
Date of Event: 07/10/1851
Group Registration ID: 3216521
SR District/Reg Area: Cork
Image path: marriage_returns\marriages_1851\09407\5407823.tif
Parish Church, Parish of the Holy Trinity, City of Cork
October 7, 1851
Jeremiah Sullivan, of full age, bachelor, teacher, residence: Queloyne?, father: Michael Sullivan, a gardener
Sarah Simpson, of full age, spinster, teacher, residence: Morrison's Quay, father: John Simpson, a pensioner
she signed with her mark
married after banns by Robt Maguire [can't read his degree or id. it looks like CLR - clergy? clerk?]
witnesses Ralph Hodges and Denis O'Connor
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=8f6abc883a-2038174
still working on Jeremiah's residence
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* For Maria Sullivan in Manhattan
married 8 February 1881, New York County
Robert Roundtree, 27, born in Ireland, single, parents: Robert Roundtree and Ann Hungerford
Maria Sullivan, 26 born in Ireland, single, parents: Jeremiah Sullivan and Sarah Simpson
Event Place New York County, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York
Source Details cn 11303
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24S3-9L7?lang=en
* her children
William Roundtree
Father's Name Robert Roundtree
Mother's Name Myrae Sulvian
Event Type Birth
Event Date 19 Jan 1886
Event Place Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York
Source Details cn 447599
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WMD-28G?lang=en
* son William's death
William Rowntree
Sex Male
Age 0
Birth Year (Estimated) 1886
Birthplace New York, New York, NY
Residence Place New York, New York, NY
Burial Date 8 Jul 1886
Burial Place New York, New York, NY
Marital Status Married
Father's Name Robert Rowntree
Father's Sex Male
Father's Birthplace Ireland
Mother's Name Maria Rowntree
Mother's Sex Female
Mother's Birthplace Ireland
Event Type Death
Event Date 8 Jul 1886
Event Place Manhattan, New York County, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
Certificate Number cn 568362
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WJT-2BT?lang=en
* John Rontree
Race White
Father's Name Robert Rontree
Father's Birthplace Ireland
Mother's Name Maria Sullivan
Mother's Birthplace Ireland
Event Type Birth
Event Date 12 Feb 1884
Event Place Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York
Source Details cn 389719
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WMS-RCZ?lang=en
* For Maria Sullivan in Manhattan
married 8 February 1881, New York County
Robert Roundtree, 27, born in Ireland, single, parents: Robert Roundtree and Ann Hungerford
Maria Sullivan, 26 born in Ireland, single, parents: Jeremiah Sullivan and Sarah Simpson
Event Place New York County, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York
Source Details cn 11303
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24S3-9L7?lang=en
* her children
William Roundtree
Father's Name Robert Roundtree
Mother's Name Myrae Sulvian
Event Type Birth
Event Date 19 Jan 1886
Event Place Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York
Source Details cn 447599
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WMD-28G?lang=en
son William's death
William Rowntree
Sex Male
Age 0
Birth Year (Estimated) 1886
Birthplace New York, New York, NY
Residence Place New York, New York, NY
Burial Date 8 Jul 1886
Burial Place New York, New York, NY
Marital Status Married
Father's Name Robert Rowntree
Father's Sex Male
Father's Birthplace Ireland
Mother's Name Maria Rowntree
Mother's Sex Female
Mother's Birthplace Ireland
Event Type Death
Event Date 8 Jul 1886
Event Place Manhattan, New York County, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
Certificate Number cn 568362
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WJT-2BT?lang=en
John Rontree
Race White
Father's Name Robert Rontree
Father's Birthplace Ireland
Mother's Name Maria Sullivan
Mother's Birthplace Ireland
Event Type Birth
Event Date 12 Feb 1884
Event Place Manhattan, New York, New York, United States
Event Place (Original) Manhattan, New York
Source Details cn 389719
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WMS-RCZ?lang=en
cn = certificate numbers, which might make the record easier to find.
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Good finds!
Robert Rountree died in 1885 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WJT-S8P?lang=en
Maria remarried to William H. Chatterton in 1887 - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:24H4-QB2?lang=en
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images
indexed in 1882 but the date of the certificate says 1881. either the minister or the indexers got it wrong.
Robert Rountree and Maria Sullivan
married 8 February 1881 by Thomas Henry Lee, pastor, St Christopher's Church. his residence: 204 West 39th
witnesses James Brown and William Cairns
Robert Rountree of 227 West 40th, age next birthday: 27, a coachman, born in Ireland,
Maria Sullivan of 27 Beekman Place, age next birthday: 26, born in Ireland
first marriage for both
parents as named in the last post.
https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/11977894
son William's birth
at 246 West 36th
19 January 1886
Myrae/Maria's age 30, born in Ireland
https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/282502
sons John's birth
at 304 West 22nd
Maria's age not given, born in Ireland
the father Robert was a coachman on both birth records
https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/138528
haven't found son William's death yet.
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William H. Chatterton & Maria Sullivan's marriage record has a Lizzie Sullivan as a witness. https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/7822105
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Robert Rountree and Maria Sullivan
married 8 February 1881 by Thomas Henry Lee, pastor, St Christopher's Church. his residence: 204 West 39th
witnesses James Brown and William Cairns
It wasn't St Christopher's, it was St Chrysostom's. and it was an Episcopal church.
from a photo collection
Church, St. Chrysostom Chapel (39th St. & 7th Ave.).
Description Taken from opposite corner of St. Chrysostom Protestant Episcopal Church.
https://collections.mcny.org/CS.aspx?VP3=DamView&VBID=24UAYWF4L83I&PN=20&DocRID=2F3XC5Q8Z6I&FR_=1&W=1600&H=764
from a history of the church
[1924 I think]
The New York Times explained “St. Chrysostom’s Chapel…was abandoned by Trinity Parish because of increasing commercial invasions of the neighborhood. The officials of Trinity Parish entered into an agreement with Mr. Sparks [of St. Clement’s Episcopal Church on West 46th Street] to provide a church home for the members of St. Chrysostom’s." In return, Trinity paid for much-needed structural repairs of St. Clement’s.
http://daytoninmanhattan.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-lost-st-chrysostoms-chapel-7th.html
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William died in 1917 and was apparently survived by Maria. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2WC6-C99?lang=en
He was in the City Home for the Aged and Infirm from 29 May 1916 through his death and Episcopal records indicate he was buried there. The record of his entry to the home says his wife Mary Chatterton lived at 406 W. 38th Street, and his parents' names match the other records.
This is William & Mary/Maria on the 1915 NY state census. https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K9KK-GHD?lang=en The surname for Mary should be Chatterton, as the next family on the census is Flugler. It said she had been in the US for 46 and was a citizen. They were at 358 W. 45th Street.
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Children of Maria Sullivan & William Chatterton:
Unnamed female b. 20 Feb. 1890 - https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/364562 It lists Maria as the mother of 5 (I think) children, two of which were living
Cressie b. 1 Nov. 1893 - https://a860-historicalvitalrecords.nyc.gov/view/644598
Death of daughter Grace on 7 Feb. 1895, age 1 (maybe Cressie = Grace?) - https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2W6F-H9N?lang=en