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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: Zacktyr on Saturday 03 May 25 18:39 BST (UK)
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Hello Rootschatters,
I have tried running this image through AI and through Transkribus and neither was able to give me an answer. Attached is an image of a margin entry at the bottom of the last page of a Notarial Act. I have the top line but can't make any sense out of the lower line. Can anyone help, please?
The top line is
troisième et dernier.
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Very difficult to answer this one.
I guess it's the first time ever you've found something like that at this specific place?
I unfortunately don't have as much experience with notarial acts as you.
My only guess would be it's a name, because the way the second word ends is very typical of one's signature.
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Without any context it's difficult to say but first word looks like Gole
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Hello Zefiro and PatLac,
Thank you both, so much, for taking a look at this little cryptic puzzle for me. Between both of your responses, I think I may have cracked it.
I took a look at the notary's signature on the document - his name was Francois Habrial - and sure enough he has added a fancy swirl at the end of his name but before adding the word 'Notary', which is identical to the swirl that follows the "h" in the original image. I've attached an image of his signature showing that swirl. That same swirl is also used at the bottom of each page under the text of the page. So, I think the second word is the notary's first letter of his last name, "H" with the swirl.
One phrase in French that I know of that could possibly explain the first word in that second line is "à côté de", or 'by' in the sense of a person attending to the document. So, I am wondering if that word is a hastily and poorly written "à côté".
Putting the two parts together it would make sense that the Notary would have to initial each two-sided folio in the document.
Does this make sense to one or both of you?
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à côté de isn't something you'd find on a document, because it means 'next to, adjacent to'
The English sentence 'I live by the river' could be translated as 'J'habite à côté de la rivière'.
BUT
You can't use it for the English 'by' in sentences like 'It was done by him', because this needs another French preposition, in this case 'par'.
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Forgot to make clear that the reading of the second word is correct, but I still don't know what's meant by the first word.
I'm not sure what the first letter might be...
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ROLE
PROCÉDURE. Recto et verso d'une page d'acte notarié, d'expédition de jugement, cahier des charges, conclusions.
https://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/role
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The second snippet being : habrial fancy swirl notaire
the first one may be : troisième et dernier role paraphe ( signed initial for habrial) or paraphe and fancy swirl
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hello there, newbie here but I have done and read a fair bit of old french on manuscript, being french myself. Do you happen to have a bigger portion of the document to share? happy to have a look at it.
I am unsure that "a cote" would be what is written in the second line, but a signature wouldn't be surprising indeed.
I am not sure Role is the second line first word myself, but "ole" is definitely present to me. The first letter before "ole" looks like an A to me, but that makes less sense. Hence my curiosity to compare other writings from the document if available to see what other letter they wrote in a similar way.
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I've found these 'fancy swirls' appear very often after French signatures.
I've seen many of them and was trying to find out more about them just last week.
They are evidently called 'paraphs'.
From the dictionary:
paraph | ˈparaf |
noun
a flourish after a signature, originally as a precaution against forgery.
from French paraphe, from medieval Latin paraphus (contraction of paragraphus ‘short horizontal stroke’).
Joger has written
'the first one may be : troisième et dernier role paraphe ( signed initial for habrial) or paraphe and fancy swirl', which suggests they think the 'paraphe' is the initial signed?
The dictionary says the 'fancy swirl' is called the paraph.
Added:
This is why I was looking into this!
This marriage from 1639 has at least 6 men using different paraphs.
Interestingly, the two women, Marie Darsy, the bride, top right, and Jeanne Hesdoul, second left, the groom's aunt, don't use one, but I think what's even more interesting is that both of them can actually sign their names.
At this date many people, especially women, 'make their mark', the same as you would find in British records.
SO interesting when you find original records. :)
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Goldie : I chose to use paraphe in the sense used under B.2.a et b here:
https://www.cnrtl.fr/lexicographie/paraphe
Which is a modern sense of the word ( I " paraph" all the pages of a contract when I go and see my "notaire ") and makes a difference with the " fancy swirl" also called parafe or paraphe (and which is part of the signature of many people even nowadays and which is what is written after the last letter of the name and can be only a point or a line under the name).
More than a precaution against forgery the paraphe on all the pages of a contract is a proof that you have read all the pages and a way of saving time and space on the paper.
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Interesting joger. :)
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More than a precaution against forgery the paraphe on all the pages of a contract is a proof that you have read all the pages and a way of saving time and space on the paper.
In my working life I had to sign/witness many legal documents. The requirement was that one's usual signature appeared in full as a witness/signatory but that any amendments/alterations made were what we 'initialled' as were the bottoms of any pages were there was not a full signature. So any appendices had to have each page initialled, usually on the bottom right of the page. My initials were both first names and surname so CCT. When I was married and had a 'double banger' name it was CCT-S, complete with hyphen. I guess this would be correctly called a 'paraphe'.
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Absolutely right!
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Hello, everyone,
Thank you to each and every one of you for tackling this cryptic little phrase. Joger's and Goldie61's conversation on paraph is very interesting. I was a certified law clerk for 18 years and, like Shanreagh, had to affix my initials to the margins of many documents, particularly Wills. But, never could an extra swirl be added. So, it is very interesting to discover that those little fancy swirls actually have a term - a paraph. I have attached another image from the document to show the fancy identical fancy swirl after the initial in the margin and at the foot of the page.
For MichelBaboulinet, you may find the two highlighted capital "C"s interesting in the context of the second word in the margin entry. This is what lead me to adopt "a cote" as a hastily written possibility. For MichelBaboulinet I have also added an image of the capital "R"s found in various French documents and have highlighted the one that closely resembles the first letter in that second word. This image is from BYU's French Handwriting website.
As to that one cryptic word, between Zefiro's input regarding the meaning of "à côté de" and PatLac's contributions that have convinced me that the word is "Rôle", defined as being the front and back of a page of a notarial deed. That word has no direct translation in English. But, in English we use the word "folio" to describe a sheet of paper, both front and back, or recto and verso.
So with that said, I believe I can put this little puzzle to rest. Thank you, again, everyone. Sometimes, it takes a village to get to the facts.
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What a fantastic learning experience we've had! Thank you.
I've just had a thought...I wonder if the paraphe has now been superseded, in part, by the rubber stamp that some 'professional' signatories/witnesses use.
My solicitor being a notary public also has a stamp that he signs/initials in the middle of. As a person authorised to take/make statutory declarations on land matters I had a stamp and this, plus initials, may have been my 'paraphe'
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I suppose there is no capital R in the document? I'm still not 100% convinced. The second picture shows the word premier before it and the l doesn't quite look the same as in the first picture.
100% convinced ;D
https://immo.notaire.be/immoplatform-public-service_v1/api/attachments/126482/281795/679854.pdf
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So belgian 'notaires" still used the word Role in 1998 (role =page) and may be still do.
I think french "notaires" let down this word , I still try to find when.
Why role? Because it meant "rouleau" , roll.
Added: I just checked en acte de vente I possess , the notaire wrote"" page 1 etc... in 1999 in France
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Here's a snippet of the" lettre d'intention d'achat" that the real estate agent sent me when we sold a flat in 2023, the initials are those of the man who bought the flat.