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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Northumberland => Topic started by: danielr on Thursday 01 May 25 11:43 BST (UK)

Title: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Thursday 01 May 25 11:43 BST (UK)
Hello! Apologies in advance for my inexperience, I've only quite recently got into researching my family history! I've been trying to find/verify christening and parentage details on a Mary Grey, who married Thomas Mole on 4th November 1808 in Ellingham. Their children are listed as born in Eglingham (1809, 1811, 1813, 1815, 1823, 1826, 1829/1830) and Whittingham (1818, 1820)

In the 1851 census, her birth year is given as 1788 (est.) and place as Kyloe, Durham. She is living in "[blank], Northumberland". In the 1841 census, her birth year is given as "1787-1791" and place as "Northumberland". She is living in Edlingham. In the christening records for her daughter Elizabeth, the maternal grandfather's name is given as Thomas Grey.

A "Thomas" is not listed as the father for any Durham baptisms I could find for 1780-1792. The suggested baptism records in FindMyPast do not list Thomas as the father.
'FamilySearch' has linked two different christenings in Northumberland: one for 1780 (father matches, mother "Dorothy Watson"), and 1783 (no mother listed, same as on FreeREG).
Random search pulled up a 1785 christening in Northumberland of an illegitimate child between a Thomas Grey and Grace Londie, but I cannot confirm a connection.
Ancestry suggests her mother as "Jane Bowmaker", but this may be linked to Cheshire records. It also lists Dorothy Watson as a spouse of Thomas Grey.

Any and all help is greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance!  ;D
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Thursday 01 May 25 12:04 BST (UK)
Cannot seem to edit the main post so am following up: have looked into burial records for 1861-1871 as there does not seem to be an 1871 census for Mary (she is widowed and living alone in 1861). A "Mary Mole", aged 77 (b. est. 1788) was buried 11 June 1865 in Warkworth...
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: trish1120 on Friday 02 May 25 10:59 BST (UK)
Have you tried to track 1808 Marriage Witness Ralph Gray?
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: AllanUK on Friday 02 May 25 11:11 BST (UK)
Yesterday, danieir said In the 1851 census, her birth year is given as 1788 (est.) and place as Kyloe, Durham. She is living in "[blank], Northumberland". --- not so, they were living at Lemmington Bank Top --- Lemmington is near to Alnwick.

(snippet image courtesy of Find My Past)
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: JenB on Friday 02 May 25 11:17 BST (UK)
Quote
In the 1851 census, her birth year is given as 1788 (est.) and place as Kyloe, Durham.

You probably already know this - but in case you don't, just to explain that although Kyloe is now part of Northumberland, until 1844 it was part of County Durham. It was part of Islandshire, which was one of three outliers of County Durham which were within Northumberland.

The other two were Norhamshire and Bedlingtonshire.

They were integrated into Northumberland under the Counties (Detached Parts) Bill' of 1844.

So, although it seems odd, the 1851 census entry stating Durham, Kyloe, is completely correct.
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: AllanUK on Friday 02 May 25 11:22 BST (UK)
You got there before me again JenB.
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: JenB on Friday 02 May 25 11:28 BST (UK)
Sorry  ;D

Going slightly off tack - if she was indeed born in Kyloe then the 1841 census was incorrect in stating she was born 'in county'. She was living in Northumberland 'proper' in 1841, so the census should have stated 'not born in county'.

It all makes for a lot of confusion.
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Friday 02 May 25 11:41 BST (UK)
Quote
In the 1851 census, her birth year is given as 1788 (est.) and place as Kyloe, Durham.

You probably already know this - but in case you don't, just to explain that although Kyloe is now part of Northumberland, until 1844 it was part of County Durham.

Oh wow! I didn't actually know this (I'm not from England - nor Europe at all - so half of these place names are new to me :D). That makes so much more sense now, thanks!

Thank you for the image, AllanUK! Helpful to know that FindMyPast has image censuses (showing off my currently-limited genealogical knowledge, oops)

Have you tried to track 1808 Marriage Witness Ralph Gray?

I did! The other witness, "Alexr. Mole", is either Thomas's father or brother (unlikely as he was twelve). Going off this, I found a 'Mary Grey' - daughter of Ralph and Jane - christened in Morpeth 13th May 1787. Also found a Mary Grey christened 9 May 1782 and a Ralph Grey christened 6 July 1788 - children of John and Susannah in Houghton-le-Spring.
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: JenB on Friday 02 May 25 12:03 BST (UK)
 
Quote
In the christening records for her daughter Elizabeth, the maternal grandfather's name is given as Thomas Grey.

I'm a bit confused by this (not difficult  ;D ) So far I can only find baptisms records where Elizabeth's father's name is given as Thomas. Where have you found a record which states that Mary's father (i.e. Elizabeth's grandfather) was Thomas?
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Friday 02 May 25 12:57 BST (UK)
Quote
In the christening records for her daughter Elizabeth, the maternal grandfather's name is given as Thomas Grey.

I'm a bit confused by this (not difficult  ;D ) So far I can only find baptisms records where Elizabeth's father's name is given as Thomas. Where have you found a record which states that Mary's father (i.e. Elizabeth's grandfather) was Thomas?

This was on a record image, however upon reviewing I am now noticing a difference in the handwriting ::). Probably wasn’t on the original record?
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: JenB on Friday 02 May 25 13:05 BST (UK)
What was the source of the image you’ve seen?
Could you give a link to it?
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 02 May 25 14:04 BST (UK)
What was the source of the image you’ve seen?
Could you give a link to it?
This may explain it JenB
There is a transcription on Durham Records Online
01 Oct 1809, Father was native of Alnwick, Mother was the daughter of Thos. Grey, husbandman of Brandon White House

There is a Note on the record that says there are 2 versions of the register in existence for 1798-1809.One in the usual terse format and one that contains the extra info we usually get in the Barrington years
added Durham Records Online say they have combined both to show as much detail as possible in their records

Boo
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: Tickettyboo on Friday 02 May 25 14:12 BST (UK)
Yesterday, danieir said In the 1851 census, her birth year is given as 1788 (est.) and place as Kyloe, Durham. She is living in "[blank], Northumberland". --- not so, they were living at Lemmington Bank Top --- Lemmington is near to Alnwick.


I love connections :-)
Death Notice , Morpeth Herald 09 Feb 1861, page 8, col 4

Boo
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: JenB on Friday 02 May 25 14:42 BST (UK)
Thanks for that - Durham Records Online was the one place I failed to check. I'd still like to have a sight of the image which danielr refers to.

Just adding that in the 1861 census Mary's birthplace is Fenwick Steads, which was definitely situated in the parish of Kyloe.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14.9&lat=55.64990&lon=-1.87553&layers=6&right=ESRIWorld
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: JenB on Friday 02 May 25 18:13 BST (UK)
This may explain it JenBThere is a transcription on Durham Records Online
01 Oct 1809, Father was native of Alnwick, Mother was the daughter of Thos. Grey, husbandman of Brandon White House

Brandon White House was in Eglingham Parish (which was extremely large)
 https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=16.0&lat=55.45589&lon=-1.91394&layers=168&right=ESRIWorld
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Saturday 03 May 25 04:45 BST (UK)
What was the source of the image you’ve seen?
Could you give a link to it?

It was an image I’d saved from, maybe Ancestry? Looks like it was someone’s notes researching the Elizabeth Grey side of the tree though. When I’m next at the library I’ll see if I can find it  :)
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Saturday 03 May 25 10:11 BST (UK)
Yesterday, danieir said In the 1851 census, her birth year is given as 1788 (est.) and place as Kyloe, Durham. She is living in "[blank], Northumberland". --- not so, they were living at Lemmington Bank Top --- Lemmington is near to Alnwick.


I love connections :-)
Death Notice , Morpeth Herald 09 Feb 1861, page 8, col 4

Boo

Ah awesome, fantastic find! Age also matches with the birth-year I’ve found so is very likely him.
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: Tickettyboo on Saturday 03 May 25 11:02 BST (UK)

Death Notice , Morpeth Herald 09 Feb 1861, page 8, col 4

Boo

Ah awesome, fantastic find! Age also matches with the birth-year I’ve found so is very likely him.

Link to the burial register (Bishop's Transcript) entry image for Thomas Mole
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6S89-V5D?

If you want further confirmation/clues to decide if its the right man, you'd need to see his civil death certificate details : A death entry for this time will give date and place of death, name, age, occupation, cause of death and the name and address of the informant - who hopefully is a known relative :-)

if you don't already have one, sign up for a free account at https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

If you are logged in you can search historical births/deaths in England & Wales. Once you find one and select it you get 3 options to order the record
1 an official certificate  - by post on a posh piece of paper cost £12.50
2 a pdf image of the original register entry - by email within a few days cost £8
3 a digital image of the register entry - immediately available online after payment cost £3
no prizes for guessing which option is my preferred one.
However there 'can'  be problems with the digital ones as they were not always scanned 'straight' and sometimes  the top or bottom may not be viewable. I still try that option first, if the image isn't fully readable, I ask for a refund (they are not rescanning these) and order the pdf version.

Boo
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: JenB on Saturday 03 May 25 11:36 BST (UK)
Incorrectly posted - deleted  :-X
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Sunday 04 May 25 08:34 BST (UK)

Death Notice , Morpeth Herald 09 Feb 1861, page 8, col 4

Boo

Ah awesome, fantastic find! Age also matches with the birth-year I’ve found so is very likely him.

Link to the burial register (Bishop's Transcript) entry image for Thomas Mole
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HY-6S89-V5D?

If you want further confirmation/clues to decide if its the right man, you'd need to see his civil death certificate details : A death entry for this time will give date and place of death, name, age, occupation, cause of death and the name and address of the informant - who hopefully is a known relative :-)

if you don't already have one, sign up for a free account at https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

If you are logged in you can search historical births/deaths in England & Wales. Once you find one and select it you get 3 options to order the record
1 an official certificate  - by post on a posh piece of paper cost £12.50
2 a pdf image of the original register entry - by email within a few days cost £8
3 a digital image of the register entry - immediately available online after payment cost £3
no prizes for guessing which option is my preferred one.
However there 'can'  be problems with the digital ones as they were not always scanned 'straight' and sometimes  the top or bottom may not be viewable. I still try that option first, if the image isn't fully readable, I ask for a refund (they are not rescanning these) and order the pdf version.

Boo

Amazing, thank you Boo! Will . for if/when I start looking into the Mole side  ;D
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Monday 05 May 25 12:15 BST (UK)
Yesterday, danieir said In the 1851 census, her birth year is given as 1788 (est.) and place as Kyloe, Durham. She is living in "[blank], Northumberland". --- not so, they were living at Lemmington Bank Top --- Lemmington is near to Alnwick.


I love connections :-)
Death Notice , Morpeth Herald 09 Feb 1861, page 8, col 4

Boo

Side-tracking a little from the investigation: confirming details of Mary & Thomas Mole's children and notice you're the transcriber for the FreeREG records! So helpful, thank you!  ;D

Also noticed more christening records for 1835-1841. Parents are Thomas Mole and Mary, church is the same that the prior Eglingham christenings took place. Although Mary Grey/Mole would've been about 52 at the latter point  ???
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: Tickettyboo on Monday 05 May 25 13:06 BST (UK)

Side-tracking a little from the investigation: confirming details of Mary & Thomas Mole's children and notice you're the transcriber for the FreeREG records! So helpful, thank you!  ;D

Also noticed more christening records for 1835-1841. Parents are Thomas Mole and Mary, church is the same that the prior Eglingham christenings took place. Although Mary Grey/Mole would've been about 52 at the latter point  ???

I was one of many transcribers for Northumberland FreeReg for a couple of years. FreeReg contributers are all over the world and I was pleased to be able join in.
Most transcriptions you see attributed to me were done from the Diocese of Durham Bishops Transcripts images on Family Search, so if you find an entry of interest then you can then download the image from FS for your records - and also check that I transcribed it correctly! well over 100,000 entries means there are 'bound' to be some errors no matter how careful I tried to be.:-)

I just looked on FreeReg and between 1810 and 1840 there were 218 baptisms in Northumberland for the surname Mole (+soundex variants e.g. Molle/Maul/Maule). Thomas and Mary are very common forenames, may be related to your couple - grandchildren/ grandchildren of one of Thomas Mole' brothers/cousins etc etc

Boo
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: jonwarrn on Monday 05 May 25 20:58 BST (UK)
Also noticed more christening records for 1835-1841. Parents are Thomas Mole and Mary, church is the same that the prior Eglingham christenings took place. Although Mary Grey/Mole would've been about 52 at the latter point  ???

Father a grocer / shop keeper on the baptisms
Maybe
MOLE, JAMES       
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHRISP 
GRO Reference: 1839  M Quarter in ALNWICK UNION  Volume 25  Page 213

MOLE, ELIZABETH       
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHRISP 
GRO Reference: 1841  M Quarter in ALNWICK UNION  Volume 25  Page 236

Their children are listed as born in Eglingham (1809, 1811, 1813, 1815, 1823, 1826, 1829/1830) and Whittingham (1818, 1820)

Only the first baptism, Elizabeth's in 1809, was at Eglingham.
Other than the two at Whittingham, the rest were at Edlingham.
The marriage in 1808 was at Ellingham.
Confusing!
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Monday 12 May 25 12:43 BST (UK)
Father a grocer / shop keeper on the baptisms
Maybe
MOLE, JAMES       
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHRISP 
GRO Reference: 1839  M Quarter in ALNWICK UNION  Volume 25  Page 213

MOLE, ELIZABETH       
Mother's Maiden Surname: CHRISP 
GRO Reference: 1841  M Quarter in ALNWICK UNION  Volume 25  Page 236

Ah thank you, definitely rules them out!

Their children are listed as born in Eglingham (1809, 1811, 1813, 1815, 1823, 1826, 1829/1830) and Whittingham (1818, 1820)

Only the first baptism, Elizabeth's in 1809, was at Eglingham.
Other than the two at Whittingham, the rest were at Edlingham.
The marriage in 1808 was at Ellingham.
Confusing!

To be honest, I didn't realise they were different places. Due to the very close spellings I believed they were the same place, oops  :D
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: JenB on Monday 12 May 25 12:49 BST (UK)
I suggest you bookmark this link to a list of Northumberland parishes on Genuki. There is an accompanying location map for each parish https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Parishes#E

Here is a link to a much more detailed place name index, also on Genuki https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Gazetteer
Title: Re: Mary Grey
Post by: danielr on Tuesday 13 May 25 00:50 BST (UK)
I suggest you bookmark this link to a list of Northumberland parishes on Genuki. There is an accompanying location map for each parish https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Parishes#E

Here is a link to a much more detailed place name index, also on Genuki https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/NBL/Gazetteer

Thank you, Jen - much appreciated!