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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: mikegunnill on Tuesday 29 April 25 14:39 BST (UK)
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I have the death of Francisco Samuel Short, 9 June 1954 at the Fountain Inn, Liskeard in Cornwall. His home address is Pentyre, Padstow Cornwall. His widow was Winifred Joyce Short-nee Drinkwater and two children in the marriage.
I have the death certificate/inquest report for Mr Short. I am trying to locate where he was buried or cremated. I “think” his wife would gone for cremation but cannot be 100% sure. In Cornwall in 1954 there were three cremation locations. I have checked these and I have checked the local church in Padstow for a burial etc.. The central research centre in Cornwall have been helpful but they have no record of FSS. I have also searched local newspapers for burial/cremation details.
I would welcome a new pair of eyes on this. I always feel it is a little untidy unless I have a final resting spot! Grateful for any assistance please?
Extra info: Mr Short was the son of one of the original Short Brothers.
Widow: Mrs Winifred Joyce Short - nee Drinkwater was the widow, a well known Scottish early flyer and engineer.
I have also checked with 5x relations, who cannot help.
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Have you got a copy of his Will? Sometimes burial requests are mentioned.
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Have you got a copy of his Will? Sometimes burial requests are mentioned.
I have and nothing is mentioned. Thank you
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Could he have been buried in a family grave elsewhere in England?
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There are many newspaper articles noting his death, but not one found so far giving funeral arrangements.
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Winifred Joyce appears to have remarried in 1973. Where is she buried/cremated, possibly with 1st husband?
SS
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From Wiki..
After Short's death in 1954, Drinkwater married William Orchard, a fisherman. After Orchard's death in 1983, she returned to Scotland living near Turnberry in Ayrshire. She later moved to New Zealand to live with her daughter.[1][2]
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You could ask the burials officer on this link
https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/births-marriages-deaths/deaths-funerals-and-cremation/council-cemeteries-in-east-cornwall/
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Could he have been buried in a family grave elsewhere in England?
Apparently not with his ancestors https://shortbrothersaviationpioneers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/newsletters/short-brothers-newsletter-016.pdf
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Winifred Joyce appears to have remarried in 1973. Where is she buried/cremated, possibly with 1st husband?
SS
She moved to New Zealand, where she died. She was cremated and her ashes lost in a family house fire. Thank you
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Could he have been buried in a family grave elsewhere in England?
I explored any connection and couldn’t find a family grave “elsewhere.” He was the son of one of the original Short Brothers but nothing suggesting he is buried with them.
Thanks for your suggestion.
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There are many newspaper articles noting his death, but not one found so far giving funeral arrangements.
Yes exactly and all the “announcements” broadly follow the same, suggesting it was an agency handout. But thank you for your suggestion.
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You could ask the burials officer on this link
https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/births-marriages-deaths/deaths-funerals-and-cremation/council-cemeteries-in-east-cornwall/
Thank you for this. I have tried with the County Burials Officer.
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A couple of random thoughts...
According to AI, the death of someone who died in Padstow in 1954 would have been registered in Bodmin (correct it if it's wrong, I'm in Brazil, so no idea!).
If his death was registered in Liskeard maybe he has been buried or cremated somewhere nearby or anywhere in that direction.
I have noticed that the newspaper announcements of his death were from all over the UK bar Cornwall. Cornish papers have published notices regarding his estate but not his death. Does that mean something?
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A couple of random thoughts...
According to AI, the death of someone who died in Padstow in 1954 would have been registered in Bodmin (correct it if it's wrong, I'm in Brazil, so no idea!).
If his death was registered in Liskeard maybe he has been buried or cremated somewhere nearby or anywhere in that direction.
I have noticed that the newspaper announcements of his death were from all over the UK bar Cornwall. Cornish papers have published notices regarding his estate but not his death. Does that mean something?
I like your thinking and you are correct if he had died in Padstow this would have been registered in Bodmin. He died in Liskeard. His death certificate gives the cause of death as 'alcohol related.’ I think there may have been some sort of cover up, hence no comment in his local newspaper. I have checked again with the burial officer for Liskeard, they have no record of a burial/cremation in that area.
I am at a loss where to go now, but I am grateful for your comments. Thank you
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Thank you for the clarification. So, his last address was in Padstow, but he died in Liskeard. Do you know if he was still in business around the time of his death?
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Thank you for the clarification. So, his last address was in Padstow, but he died in Liskeard. Do you know if he was still in business around the time of his death?
Yes he was in business at death. He spent a great deal of time battling against the British government seeking a fair price for shares in Short Brothers when it was nationalised. He had a settlement in 1948 and the family received a large payout. I am not sure what his business was in 1954 ! He took trips often to spend a couple of days just drinking. Liskeard is about 38 miles from Padstow. I understand he went to the same hotel a few times but always as ‘business trip.” His wife was aware of what he was doing.
Thank you again.
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I know this could be too personal, so thank you. I'm only trying to know his whereabouts and general background and maybe find some clues in the newspapers regarding "Mr. Short" or something like that.
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Have you looked in Bodmin and Wadebridge? Penmount Crematorium in Truro?
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I have the death of Francisco Samuel Short, 9 June 1954 at the Fountain Inn, Liskeard in Cornwall.
Pedantic I know, but probate calendar says 5 June 1954, as does the death announcement in The Times (published on 9 June!)
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I have the death of Francisco Samuel Short, 9 June 1954 at the Fountain Inn, Liskeard in Cornwall.
Pedantic I know, but probate calendar says 5 June 1954, as does the death announcement in The Times (published on 9 June!)
Yes thats my error while typing 5 June is correct.
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Have you looked in Bodmin and Wadebridge? Penmount Crematorium in Truro?
I have checked for Bodmin, which also covered Wadebridge in 1954. Also the Penmount Crematorium which opened in 1956. < Short death in 1954 > There were only about 4 locations in 1954 to be cremated. The main two near Plymouth. The two at Plymouth could make sense, driving time from Liskeard or Padstow. Both have been checked.
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I know this could be too personal, so thank you. I'm only trying to know his whereabouts and general background and maybe find some clues in the newspapers regarding "Mr. Short" or something like that.
Thank you but I am not related to Mr Short.
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Sorry, I had no idea, and thank you. It was a long shot, anyway. The man who identified his body in the hotel, Percy (Percival) Parker, same age as Francisco, was cremated there, have you any information about him? Do you know if Francis or Winnie were affiliated to any religion around the time of his death?
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Sorry, I had no idea, and thank you. It was a long shot, anyway. The man who identified his body in the hotel, Percy (Percival) Parker, same age as Francisco, was cremated there, have you any information about him? Do you know if Francis or Winnie were affiliated to any religion around the time of his death?
Thank you for your continued help. I have no knowledge of Percy Parker. I assume he was the landlord of the Fountain Hotel. Was this from a report on his Inquest? I would like to see this if possible please. I have not come across any Inquest reports!
Francis/Winnie were not religious I understand, so I am not sure about affiliations! Grateful for your further help please? Thx Mike
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I have seen it (partially, because I don't have a subscription) on British Newspaper Archive. He wasn't from the hotel, he was described as being Percy Parker of the Bungalow Trevisquite, St Mabyn.
... his room and saw was dead in bed. The sheet and blankets were covering mouth and nose. Evidence of identification was by Percy Parker of The Bungalow Trevisquite St Mabyn said that Mr Short was of independent means.
Published: Thursday 10 June 1954
Newspaper: Newquay Express and Cornwall County Chronicle
County: Cornwall, England
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1954-06-01/1954-06-30?basicsearch=%22percy%20parker%22&phrasesearch=percy%20parker&retrievecountrycounts=false
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I have seen it (partially, because I don't have a subscription) on British Newspaper Archive. He wasn't from the hotel, he was described as being Percy Parker of the Bungalow Trevisquite, St Mabyn.
... his room and saw was dead in bed. The sheet and blankets were covering mouth and nose. Evidence of identification was by Percy Parker of The Bungalow Trevisquite St Mabyn said that Mr Short was of independent means.
Published: Thursday 10 June 1954
Newspaper: Newquay Express and Cornwall County Chronicle
County: Cornwall, England
https://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/search/results/1954-06-01/1954-06-30?basicsearch=%22percy%20parker%22&phrasesearch=percy%20parker&retrievecountrycounts=false
Thank you again! Very useful and thank you for the link. Strange I didn’t see this before. Helps a little but not towards finding the body. The search continues.
Kind Regards
Mike
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Maybe his aunt Violet Louise and uncle Hugh Oswald had a plot somewhere?
CHURCH FETE AT HESSENFORD OPENED BY WIFE OF AVIATION PIONEER Mrs. Short, wife of Mr. Oswald Short, one of the Short Brothers of flying-boat family, declared open a garden fete in the grounds of Hessenford vicarage on Saturday. Mrs. Short was accompanied by her husband. They live at Trevisquite Manor. Bt. Mabyn.
Published: Thursday 05 August 1954
Newspaper: Cornish Guardian
County: Cornwall, England
She died in 1966 and Hugh Oswald died in 1969 in Midhurst.
...explained by letter that she only intended to take a close-up of her friends Inspector Tucker pointed out that Mrs Violet Louise Short Trevisquite Manor St Mabyn was with Miss King and also took photographs and had reported the matter to the police when ...
Published: Thursday 11 September 1941
Newspaper: Newquay Express and Cornwall County Chronicle
County: Cornwall, England
Mr and Mrs Short Trevisquite Manor Cornish Arms St Tudy Jim and Brenda Dart Players (Commercial Hotel Wadebridge) Members of Eglos-halye Darts Club Mrs and ...
Published: Thursday 27 December 1951
Newspaper: Cornish Guardian
County: Cornwall, England
I wonder if when they restored their grave headstone they forgot to add Francisco's?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKcGjSs18YI
https://shortbrothersaviationpioneers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/newsletters/short-brothers-newsletter-016.pdf
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Yes the couple do, an early check out. Not there! Francis did help Oswald Short a great deal when battling the British government. I guess I may have to give up on my search. Shame!
Regards
Mike
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I wonder if when they restored their grave headstone they forgot to add Francisco's?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKcGjSs18YI
https://shortbrothersaviationpioneers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/newsletters/short-brothers-newsletter-016.pdf
It looks like they moved around 1957, but maybe they had another house in West Sussex and the plot in the cemetery? Long shot...
Have you looked here? https://stgermansparishes.com/graveyard/graveyard-list/
A couple of ??? headstones...
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I wonder if when they restored their grave headstone they forgot to add Francisco's?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OKcGjSs18YI
https://shortbrothersaviationpioneers.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/newsletters/short-brothers-newsletter-016.pdf
It looks like they moved around 1957, but maybe they had another house in West Sussex and the plot in the cemetery? Long shot…
Have you looked here? https://stgermansparishes.com/graveyard/graveyard-list/
A couple of ??? headstones...
The graves in Sussex for The Short’s were renovated by Liz Walker. She is a distant relation of the Short Brothers. Among other items she also thru public appeal repaired the 2x Short graves.
I checked this location and I am waiting for confirmation from Liz Walker herself. Francis Short was close to the couple, he was treated like a son by them. But I don’t think there is further evidence.
After the Inquest on Francis Short, the body would become the property of the next of kin/widow. The body was in the local hospital and was collected. There are no records who collected the body, or where it went. After the hospital, the rest becomes a mystery.
When Winnie Orchard moved to New Zealand she spoke often about her days in Padstow/Rock but never about where husband one was buried. It seems he was mentioned very much.
I don’t like a mystery but I have no idea where to look/search anymore.
Thank you to everyone who helped, I am grateful.
Regards
Mike
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The person who gave evidence of identity of Francisco Samuel Short, was Percy Parker of The Bungalow, Trevisquite St Mabyn. He was in the hotel drinking with Mr Short.
Mr Parker lived in the same area as Hugh Oswald Short, who lived at Trevisquite Manor, St Mabyn. He would have known the Short family.
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Any final thoughts please on the location of the burial of Francisco Samuel Short ? Died 1954 at The Fountain Inn, in Liskeard, Cornwall while on a business trip. No record of his cremation/burial once undertakers took the body after the Inquest had been held.
Grateful for any new eyes on this please. I am up against a deadline now.
Thank you
Mike
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Old eyes here I'm afraid ;D
Have you tried this place given as his address?
'Francisco Samuel Short, of "Leylands," Meopham, in the County of Kent'
https://vlex.co.uk/vid/short-v-treasury-comrs-793722029
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Old eyes here I'm afraid ;D
Have you tried this place given as his address?
'Francisco Samuel Short, of "Leylands," Meopham, in the County of Kent'
https://vlex.co.uk/vid/short-v-treasury-comrs-793722029
Hello Old Eyes
Yes I have tried that location and of course the nearby churchyard. Nothing.
Mike
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Well, this is officially a mystery!
Would Winnie be bold enough to donate his body to science? Would that be possible at that time? Is this a ludicrous idea?
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Last one...
Do you know where his mother has been buried/cremated? I understand that she was still alive when he died?
... Mrs V E Gregory chairman of Newquay Urban Council who wished the fete every success The fete was formerly opened by Mrs H L Short of St Mabyn and she was thanked for doing so by Heather Roberts who gave her a bouquet and by Bromley Watson who gave Mrs ...
Published: Thursday 10 June 1954
Newspaper: Newquay Express and Cornwall County Chronicle
County: Cornwall, England
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Last one...
Do you know where his mother has been buried/cremated? I understand that she was still alive when he died?
... Mrs V E Gregory chairman of Newquay Urban Council who wished the fete every success The fete was formerly opened by Mrs H L Short of St Mabyn and she was thanked for doing so by Heather Roberts who gave her a bouquet and by Bromley Watson who gave Mrs ...
Published: Thursday 10 June 1954
Newspaper: Newquay Express and Cornwall County Chronicle
County: Cornwall, England
She moved late in life to New Zealand and died there. Her cremated remains were lost in a house fire.
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I'm talking about his mother, not his wife.
Do you know where Marie Catherine (nee Ollivier) was buried/cremated? I can't find her death records. I thought 'Mrs. H. L. Short of St Mabyn' is referring to Mrs. Horace Leonard Short? It could be just a coincidence though, lots of Shorts in Cornwall, or more likely a transcription error (I don't have a subscription to check the actual article).
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Last one...
Do you know where his mother has been buried/cremated? I understand that she was still alive when he died?
... Mrs V E Gregory chairman of Newquay Urban Council who wished the fete every success The fete was formerly opened by Mrs H L Short of St Mabyn and she was thanked for doing so by Heather Roberts who gave her a bouquet and by Bromley Watson who gave Mrs ...
Published: Thursday 10 June 1954
Newspaper: Newquay Express and Cornwall County Chronicle
County: Cornwall, England
I don’t know Catherine C Short died 1969 in Liskeard while in Lanellion Hospital, Station Road Liskeard. Same location as the death of Francisco S Short in 1954. Going round in circles here, as lots of Short’s in Cornwall. Unless something new/solid comes along, I must move onwards. Thx
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I don't think this is her. She was born around 1873 (according to Census records) and this Catherine C. Short was 85 in 1969, DOB c. 1884.
I just thought that maybe Francisco was buried/cremated at the same place as his mother.
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I don't think this is her. She was born around 1873 (according to Census records) and this Catherine C. Short was 85 in 1969, DOB c. 1884.
I just thought that maybe Francisco was buried/cremated at the same place as his mother.
Catherine C. Short buried in Camden 4 February 1938. Not sure why she wasn’t buried with her husband Horace Short. I have checked here and no ashes etc., added Horace Shorts grave. Also checked with Liz Walker a relation, she renovated two Short graves in Hampstead and no additions there.
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Actually her name was Marie (Mary) Catherine, so I guess this is her?
Deaths Mar 1938 (>99%)
SHORT Mary C 68 Pancras 1b 125
NAME: Mary Catherine Short
REGISTER TYPE: Burial
DEATH DATE: 1938
BURIAL OR CREMATION DATE: 4 Feb 1938
BURIAL OR CREMATION PLACE: Camden, London, England
It says she was buried. Maybe look for her grave?
Not sure this is her...
https://highgate.burialgrounds.co.uk/mapmanagement/#/memorialmanagement/c8905d90-950d-4dd2-a747-e68e236e3852/unmarked_grave/o/persons/59ae50fd-fcad-4517-90cf-c3201e0ce104/175b4584-3053-4c31-ade0-c5baee1aff2f?tab=0
PersonBurial
Date of Burial: 7 Feb 1938
Name:
Mary Catherine Elizabeth SHORT
Gender: f
Age:68 years
Description:n
Memorials: n
Unmarked Grave
Matthew Short and Margaret Kathleen Short buried in the same plot. It's not her. Mary Catherine Elizabeth Downing, husband Matthew Short and daughter Margaret.