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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Bellas girl on Thursday 24 April 25 20:20 BST (UK)
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Hello There
Am I correct in thinking that you can apply for a certificate online, and get a digital copy of it for£3.50 ?
I have just had a look at the gro site, and cannot see how to do it
HELP !!
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Sadly, You cannot do it with marriage certificates. You have to pay the full whack.
But to order one you find the details on FreeBMD and then enter those details in the ordering boxes.
Is it one that might be online already?
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Thank You
I was hoping that I could save myself the wait.
I do have all the details, but this part of the family has been very elusive.
I came about this quite accidentally. The bride called herself Bertha for years, her actual name was Elizabeth Bertha. Her husband is a mystery too. The family have a double barrelled name to this day, but can’t find him using it….frustrating.
Thanks again
JeannieR
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What year was the marriage? If it’s an older one and the people are no longer with us perhaps we can help with the elusive husband!
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Thank You Millipede.
The marriage took place in 1908.
Your offer to help me is greatly appreciated, however I need to ask my son in law’s
Permission to take it further. I will phone him tomorrow and get back to you.
I have been a doing genealogy for over 20 years now. That is when I used RootsChat daily. I was known as JeannieR then
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Always a good idea to get permission from people concerned although anyone it seems can research anyone
LM
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Hello Again..
I now have my son in law’s permission to discuss his family online…
This is what I know,
Charles Edward NESBIT-Clarke, married Elizabeth Bertha Gould in Islington, Dec Qtr 1908.
They had one child Edward Stephen in 1912. Charles Edward, committed suicide in 1915.
He was apparently a Cockney, born c1881 in West Hampstead.
I cannot find a birth for him. I have searched using the name .Nesbit and Clarke in all spellings.
He joined the Army in 1914, and passed away a year later.
I was hoping too find his fathers name on his marriage certificate , but I know this site to be very resourceful, so I am going to see what you guys come up with!
Many thanks
JeannieR ( my old Monica, on the site)
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Thanks for the information, will see what we can find out, you can still get the marriage certificate of course should it not be online anywhere to view.
It will have useful information like his age, occupation, residence etc as well as a possible fathers name and occupation.
It could be he was born to an unmarried mother and the two surnames connected that way.
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Plenty of trees on Ancestry with this couple in them, if you have access.
Pheno
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A family tree has his father as Ralph Mosley Clarke born 1848 Northumberland and another son George Lionel born 1878.
All to be checked out. If there is a birth record for George it might lead to something.
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Good news the marriage is online - he is 27 an electrical engineer living 44 Liverpool Road
Father Ralph Nesbitt-Clarke deceased - of independent means
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There is a M/C with same details re his Father.
Charles is a Electrical Engineer, Father Ralph of Independant Means and deceased.
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Discrepancy there is Ralph is alive in 1911 not deceased :-\
He is with a wife Mary Jane and son Ralph plus his wife and children
I wonder if Nesbit was the mothers name, unusual to have the father and not the mother as usually the other way round.
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For info George marries as George Lionel N Clark in 1898
George Lisle Nesbitt Clark born 1878 Tynemouth mothers name Wake
Other births with Wake as mothers name but not found your Charles Edward yet nor is he with the family in 1881/1891 he is a mystery one
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Thank you all so much.
I did get in touch with the gentleman George Lisle or Lionel Nesbit Clarke inn their tree, no reply as yet.
I have seen the marriage certificate, and I am certain he is my man. In fact I am positive it is
I haven’t been away from my computer this afternoon. A bit like old times, when I researched avidly. I am slower and older now, but aren’t we all! I have plenty of time these days. My lovely husband is in a nursing home, suffering from the dreaded dementia.
Thanks again
JeannieR
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Have you found your man on any census, ?., by the 1880's his birth should have been registered , I did see more than one C E N Clark(?), from memory, not at my computer at the moment, one was shown as born Hampstead
LM
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Thank you, Louisa Maud.
I will look into that. I have been flummoxed with this family, but I am not giving up.
I must get myself something to eat. I have one of my daughters and her husband coming for a few days, and I promised to make them a Beef Bourginon and a beef and mushroom pie, so had better jump too it.
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Delicious!
LM
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Keep the beef and lose the mushrooms!
I couldn’t find him at all and it seems odd for Ralph to be his father when Ralph and all his other children are from Northumberland. I wonder if he was adopted into the family somehow but then he would be with them as a child and he isn’t on census with them. Very odd.
He isn’t with his wife in 1911 either, she is with her parents I believe.
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Millipede, was just about to put pen to paper as it were and suggest perhaps he had been adopted , how about just looking for any Charles Edward born the suggested birth year Islington or surrounding àrea.
I have let my sub to A******y lapse at the moment, otherwise I could search further, I feel hh must be somewhere on at least the 1901, 1911 he might have joined a force in which case he might not be listed ,my father in law wasn't .
Don't give up
LM
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Have been looking on census but no suggestions yet I’m afraid. Will have another look with fresh eyes tomorrow.
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On his military record he has a sister Nellie Eastham
7 Leamington Terrace, Acton, London
(And says he is 29 yrs 9 mths on 7 August 1914, born West Hampstead. Which is younger than he should be if he was 27 when he married in 1908)
at that address in 1911.
Elizabeth A Eastham . Head. 56 widow baker & confectioner born Childrey, Berks. 2 children. 1 deceased
Eleanor L. Eastham daughter 23 born Acton
Ellen King/Ring , mother, 80, born Little Challow, Berks
Following them back there is a son Charles R. Eastham he was born 1883. And despite the answer to the children question he is alive in 1911. Boarding with the Newnham family. He is a Baker.
BUT he then marries Rose Louisa Newnham in 1912, and they are still both accounted for in 1921.
So… why did Charles Nesbitt etc say his sister was Nellie Eastham?
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Eleanor Louisa Eastham
1885
Brentford
Ref 3a 121
Mothers maiden name king
Is that a familiar name?
LM
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I know this birth is a bit later than we are looking but have you looked at it?
CLARK, CHARLES NESBITT NESBITT
GRO Reference: 1889 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 230
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He would show much younger than his years shown on his marriage cert if this was him, he is a mystery, isn't he?. LM
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He would show much younger than his years shown on his marriage cert if this was him, he is a mystery, isn't he?. LM
Well, yes, but am getting desperate!
And there is variance albeit not as great.
27 1908 = 1881. 29 + 9 months 1914 =1883/4
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Pity there are no baptisms.
Think I would search the census, 1991 for any Charles Edward, don't put a surname in, born give or take 2 years either side of suspected birth year and either Islington or Hampsead place of birth, am out most of the day, will see what you find when I come home.
Happy hunting
LM
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Oh, you wonderful people. I must admit I gave it a rest last night, as it was driving me nuts!
I have a busy weekend ahead of me but I will certainly look at all your suggestions.
I have a bit of a query . This gentleman shot himself whilst suffering from “ temporary insanity “ I have noticed a Charles Clark being in and out of the workhouse, so I am wondering if he was a patient due to mental problems.
In my own family, I had a great grandma , who just disappeared from 1878 to 1911 and she was described as a lunatic ( probably post natal depression) she died of cancer in 1912. What do you think?
Jeannie
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I did a check a few days ago for all Charles Edward/Edward Charles born c 1881+-5 years and found nothing either.
His occp is pretty specific on M/C and Ralph a unusual name to come up with for a false Father.
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Just to add to the confusion….on his 1914 Attestation papers, first page, he stated that he was not married.
He signed up in York.
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Just to add to the confusion….on his 1914 Attestation papers, first page, he stated that he was not married.
He signed up in York.
Wasn’t it Seaforth? Isn’t that Liverpool area?
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Just to add to the confusion….on his 1914 Attestation papers, first page, he stated that he was not married.
He signed up in York.
Wasn’t it Seaforth? Isn’t that Liverpool area?
At the bottom of page 1 it says York, 7th August 1914 :-\
Looking at his son's baptism at St Stephen Upper Holloway, it seems to me that the abode is 'St John's Road Workhouse' - dittoed from the top of the page.
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It’s getting stranger and stranger isn’t it.
This probably won’t help either but the 1911 for Ralph says 10 children born - 8 living 2 have died
Same wife it would appear as married 39 years - marriage 1872
I don’t think he belonged to that family at all but if not how would he even know the name to put down for a father at the opposite end of the country.
What about the address he put down at time of marriage, is that any help?
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Where did you find the marriage certificate?
I must be going mad _ I can't find it anywhere :-X
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It was on the family tree on ancestry with Ralph and family on.
Details at reply 10. He put down 44 Liverpool Road and father deceased which Ralph wasn’t.
I really don’t think that Northumberland family has anything to do with him at all, just a coincidence son George has Nesbitt Clark in his name.
There are other examples of Nesbitt Clark around.
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Got it - thank you :)
I also think the Northumberland family is a red herring.
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An enigma ???
It also states on his enlistment that he was apprentice to J Simpson, Son ? London, in October 1902..would there be records?
Was also looking at a birth for Charles Clark mmn King in Brentford 1881, but the Eastham couple married May that year..so unlikely. Must be a connection to Eastham/King for him to name a sister and give address. The Eastham people are at that address from 1880s to after his death so same family as posted reply #21
Death of husband,
Deaths Mar Q 1887
Eastham Charles age 27 Brentford 3a 85
Edit - going back 9mths from August, his birth should be last quarter or if late first quarter of following year.
Cas
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Would it be 44 Liverpool Road Islington?
If so electoral register for 1908 has an Ernest Charles Stanley D’Alquen
Same address in 1907 has different people as well as him and seems to be split into rooms so he could have been lodging there, maybe he even is Ernest Charles!
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Looking at his son's baptism at St Stephen Upper Holloway, it seems to me that the abode is 'St John's Road Workhouse' - dittoed from the top of the page.
Discharged from Islington Workhouse on 23rd August 1912
Bertha Clarke aged 25 and Edward S. Clarke aged 21 days.
Going to 606 Oxford Road, Reading.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/60391/records/13645156?tid=&pid=&queryId=4332e0c7-4dca-4574-ac8d-adfd7dff6637&_phsrc=qMn9&_phstart=successSource
Not that it helps to find Charles…..
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Would it be 44 Liverpool Road Islington?
If so electoral register for 1908 has an Ernest Charles Stanley D’Alquen
Same address in 1907 has different people as well as him and seems to be split into rooms so he could have been lodging there, maybe he even is Ernest Charles!
Born 1876
Ernest Charles S D'alquen
Birth Oct 1876 St Saviour Southwark, London, England
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Bertha seems to have been admitted several times to Islington Workhouse between May and August 1912.
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Been looking for a Ralph deceased of independent means but no takers unsurprisingly.
What registration district was West Hampstead in circa 1881?
Perhaps his occupation would help track down a census, electrical engineer wasn’t it in 1908
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Hampstead was in Edmonton Registration District 1837-1848.
In Hampstead RD 1848-1977.
In Camden RD 1977 on.
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What registration district was West Hampstead in circa 1881?
I think it would have been in Hampstead R D
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The plot thickens!
The reason that I am doing this tree, is because, although he was born with the Name Nesbit Clark, my son in law was adopted my his mother’s 2nd husband…
My youngest grandson is very confused, so I have said that I would “do” the family tree to help him sort it.
I can’t thank you all enough. I do wonder if Charles Edward had an unhappy childhood, and he too spent time in workhouse.
The family is very much a Military one, I have even looked at India……desperation or what
I am so happy to be back into genealogy, it is good for my brain. I am quite disabled now, so can’t go to libraries, churches etc, as I used to, and my children all live a long way from me.
JeannieR
**update. I have ordered a pdf certificate of Charles Nesbit Clarke reg 1889 at Islington. I couldn’t order one to be viewed NOW, so I will have to wait a few days . Fingers crossed.
Thank you for those details MCKHA489
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**update. I have ordered a pdf certificate of Charles Nesbit Clarke reg 1889 at Islington. I couldn’t order one to be viewed NOW, so I will have to wait a few days . Fingers crossed
Too late now, but that certificate is available as an immediate digital download for £3.00
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I am feeling a. Bit miffed by that!
I did look, but obviously didn’t see that. That is another learning curve to Conker.
Still, at least it wasn’t £12.50
That should read conquer!
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I am feeling a. Bit miffed by that!
Sorry :)
You can see the three options on this snip.
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I don’t know if this is the same person but there is a Charles N Clarke age 1 visitor in 1890 and in 1901 age 11 adopted son with the Weare family. Head of family Isabella Weare.
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How about tracking that household to the next census
LM
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He isn't with that household in 1911.
By the way if you don't have access to Ancestry or FindMyPast the 1911 census is free to search on Family Search :) - here they are https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XWLX-CF9?lang=en
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Going back a bit but which record had a sister on it?
I haven’t seen that one or has it been ruled out.
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I don’t know if this is the same person but there is a Charles N Clarke age 1 visitor in 1890 and in 1901 age 11 adopted son with the Weare family. Head of family Isabella Weare.
Interestingly Charles Edward Nesbitt Clarke stated on his 1914 Attestation papers that he was a foreman fitter and had worked with J Simpson & sons.
In 1911 Isabella Weare's son William Weare was an electrical engineer, and in 1921 was working for Worthington Simpson
Coincidence?
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Can we find J Simpson & Sons on a census to see where they were located if nothing else.
Worthington Simpson could be one of the sons.
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Worthington Simpson was the name of the company.
Previously it had been James Simpson.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worthington-Simpson
It’s just rather coincidental that ‘our’ Charles Clarke, a foreman fitter, was working for J. Simpson according to his attestation papers.
And that Charles N Clarke in 1891 and 1901 was with a family who had a member who was also a fitter and worked for Worthington Simpson in 1921.
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The plot deepens.
LM
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1921 for the Weare family has same address as on his enlistment, with others. 364 Kings Street Hammersmith. So definitely a connection there.
Cas
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Seems Milliepede has made a significant find!
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1921 for the Weare family has same address as on his enlistment, with others. 364 Kings Street Hammersmith. So definitely a connection there.
They are there in 1911 as well.
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1921 for the Weare family has same address as on his enlistment, with others. 364 Kings Street Hammersmith. So definitely a connection there.
They are there in 1911 as well.
Yes checked after posting
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This is probably not related but there is this entry in 1911 in Wakefield prison.
The occupation matches.
Charles Clark, 25, widower, fitter, engineer, London S.Kensington
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Going back a bit but which record had a sister on it?
I haven’t seen that one or has it been ruled out.
It's deep in one version of his military records
The statements given by fellow servicemen regarding his death are in it too. There's some suggestions of an unhappy marital situation. They also didn;t have the correct address for Bertha in their records so the telegram informing her that he was seriously injured in hospital in Weston didn't immediate reach her
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That’s really interesting with the Kings Street Hammersmith address but would make him a lot younger than first thought.
Be good to see what details are on that 1889 birth.
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Those witness records are hard to read, but I think one refers to a woman sadly unnamed who wasn’t his wife.
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Please let us know when you get the details.
Happy hunting
LM
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Those witness records are hard to read, but I think one refers to a woman sadly unnamed who wasn’t his wife.
That was my impression too, but also found them difficult to read.
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This is probably not related but there is this entry in 1911 in Wakefield prison.
The occupation matches.
Charles Clark, 25, widower, fitter, engineer, London S.Kensington
In 1907 a Charles Clark, 22, Engineer, is in wormwood scrubs, Thomas George Clark of Chelsea is said to be a relative.
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/8b0e389f-f636-42df-96b7-78f214a44080
More detail -this Charles is of “superior education”
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/70711895-a24c-439e-8c76-c42051f1e62e
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In my opinion I would delve a bit more into the Weare family, was Charles at one time shown as adopted, sometimes I have seen that word but it referred to a son in law.
LM
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Yes he was adopted son in 1901 age 11 and visitor in 1891 age 1. If one of the Weare children was his mother why doesn’t he have that surname :-\.
Visitor from where and from whome that is the question, who sent him to that family aged 1.
The info from the 1899 birth we are waiting on is the next crucial step to see where that takes us.
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My, you have all been so busy on my behalf, thank you.
I have had a reply from the person with George Lionel, Lisle Nesbit Clarke in there tree….Charles is no relation. Having said that, they have no idea where the Nesbit name comes from.
I am having quite a busy weekend with family ( The mince and mushroom pie was lovely ) They have come from Scotland, to take me to a hospital appointment,
So please forgive me, for not replying to your findings.
***Up Date***
I could stand it no longer, so I have got a digital copy of the birth certificate .
Here goes
November 2nd 1889
87 St John’s Road. Charles Nesbit/ Boy/Father Charles Clark/ Mother Lilian Clark/
Formally Nesbit / Fathers Occupation Amalgamated Gold Mining Company /Registered by mother / 20th November 1889.
I jut hope this is the right guy, but don’t know where Ralph comes into it.
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87 St John’s Road is a Midwife
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/d11de998-778b-4fab-be3b-a50c36bcbb0c
In 1891 at that address with Mrs Emma Davy the “sick midwife” there are two women one of whom has recently given birth, (a boy who doesn’t have a name yet) and also a 5mth old boy.
How long did women stay at the midwife’s after giving birth then? A couple of weeks? There are 18 days between the birth of Charles Nesbitt Clarke & the registration. That would have cost some money even if “reasonable rates”
Does it say what position at the Gold Mining Company?
In the 1891 the only likely ones in the London area are secretaries. As in “Secretary, Gold Mining Company “
None of them are a Charles Clarke.
I cannot find anyone who fits for Lilian Nesbitt/Clarke in 1881 or 1891 . I don’t see a death.
Now we have another mystery!
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Nothing positive to add, but a few thoughts concerning Nellie Eastham down as his sister as nok in 1914 on enlistment.
This was after he married, maybe it was rocky in 1914. The address was written at bottom for Nellie, likely included first, then crossed through, maybe at a later date.
The Eastham mother & brother was alive, their father died 1887. So why Nellie...possibly she was not a sister, but the 'other woman' given in the witness notes.. Given as sister to disguise the fact? Who knows....but he must have wanted her to know if anything happened to him.
Looked at Weare and nee Seabrook family not finding a connection so far....
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Crumbs this case just gets more and more of a puzzle doesn’t it.
I couldn’t find Lilian Nesbit Charles Clark either, who were these people and a gold mining company?
Perhaps this man travelled abroad.
Kind of fearing this wasn’t the right birth either and yet there is the link with Kings Road address.
However that would make him only about 19 when he married not 27.
Re the sister info it was crossed out wasn’t it so I wondered if it was just written on the wrong record?
Otherwise yes it could conceivably be the woman he was having an entanglement with, anything is possible with this case!
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I think the fact Lilian Nesbit /Charles Clark are not easily found lends credence to the idea it is still worth considering this person.
Especially in view of the Kings Road address
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I too tried searching for gold mining occupations last night and there was a CC from the US mining gold silver copper born 1871 who is in the UK in 1921. Unlikely but will double check.
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Lilian Elizabeth Nesbitt birth in 1897 and probable death in 1898 Islington just in case she is a link.
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I too tried searching for gold mining occupations last night and there was a CC from the US mining gold silver copper born 1871 who is in the UK in 1921. Unlikely but will double check.
I saw him and thought not - he and his wife and children are American, which suggests he's a recent arrival
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This has been really intriguing, I had 2 females in my family who changed their names when it suited them, one was possibly bigamous.
,LM
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November 2nd 1889
87 St John’s Road. Charles Nesbit/ Boy/Father Charles Clark/ Mother Lilian Clark/
Formally Nesbit / Fathers Occupation Amalgamated Gold Mining Company /Registered by mother / 20th November 1889.
The occupation is a little strange - it should state what he actually does, not just the name of a company.
Are you sure of the first word? Might it say amalgamator rather than amalgamated? This occupation caught my eye in relation to gold mining while looking through newspaper reports. See snip below.
Just a thought......clutching at straws.
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I've been thinking along that Amalgamator Line as well JenB.
Hasn't got me anywhere though!
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Perhaps Bellas girl could post a clip of the occupation part so we could have a look.
Certainly an unusual occupation to come across.
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Hi Again I am almost back to normal after my visitors have gone home.
I have been trying to find Lilian and Charles Clarke to no avail. No marriage, census. I thought they would be found on the 1891 census at least.
I think, if Charles snr worked in the Gold Mining Industry, they may have gone abroad after their baby was born. I am checking that out now.
It definitely states he works for the Amalgamated Gold Mining Company. The writing is quite beautiful, and very clear.
In my mind, I don’t think this is my family. Charles jnr would only be 19 years old when he married.
So where does Ralph Nesbit Clarke fit in! It’s a real mystery .
Elizabeth Bertha was at home with her parents in 1911. Where was her hubby, in prison I think is possible. Poor Elizabeth Bertha was in the workhouse, with a 21 day old baby in 1912. Has she been deserted for the unknown lady, mentioned by witnesses after his suicide.
It definitely looks as if Charles jnr is taken on by Isabella Weare and then adopted by her…why.
The Nellie named as his sister on his attestion is a mystery too.
I shall probably work all night on this !
Could one of you lovely people, remind me how to do an address search on FindMyPast please. I have just taken out another subscription.
Thank You
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FindMyPast census street search link
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01trh/
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Bellas girl, please forgive me - I became so curious and impatient earlier today about my 'amalgamator' theory that I bought the certificate :-X
It definitely states he works for the Amalgamated Gold Mining Company. The writing is quite beautiful, and very clear.
While I agree that the writing is beautiful I have to disagree with your conclusion - to me it definitely says amalgamator, not amalgamated. I have attached a snip.
Not that this brings us any closer to a conclusion...
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Sorry Jen,
You are quite correct it is amalgamater Gold Mining Company. My eyes are not so good, had to get magnifying glass out.
I am looking now at Isabella Weare and her family, and extended relatives.
There must be an answer somewhere.
There is no-one in the current family who can shed a light. Their Grand father never spoke about his father. I do know that his mother remarried in 1916; and had another 5 children.
I am sorry that you became impatient, and bought the certificate. That’s how I feel at times
Back to the drawing board!
JeannieR
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Amalgamator Job Description:
1) Tends equipment that separates gold or silver from ground ore by mercury amalgamation process, using either of following methods: Turns valves or opens gates to regulate flow of ore and water over mercury-coated plates.
2) Adjusts angle of plates to facilitate collection of amalgam.
3) Scrapes accumulated amalgam from plates and coats plates with mercury.
4) Turns valves or opens gates to charge ground ore and mercury into rotating-type barrels or agitating-type tanks.
5) Starts equipment and observes accumulation of amalgam.
6) Discharges or drains barrel or tank to recover gold or silver amalgam.
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Just throwing yet another random thing
1891 census, occupation “* amalgam *” brings up only 3 people just 1 in London at
24, St Anns Road, Wandsworth, London & Surrey, England.
Herbert Edmands 33 Manager gold amalgamatry works.
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New thread https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=893346.msg7675943#msg7675943