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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Warwickshire => England => Warwickshire Lookup Requests => Topic started by: Thunder Monkey on Sunday 20 April 25 20:53 BST (UK)
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Hi, hoping someone can help me find the mother of my 2nd Gt Grandmother - Emily DOWNES.
As well as any further details about her father.
She was born 22 Feb 1874 in Birmingham.
Her father was James DOWNES, as per Emily's marriage certificate. But he passed before 1893 as he was deceased on same certificate. NFDK about him.
She married George JACKSON on 16 Jul 1893 in Saltley, Birmingham.
They had 10 children.
I can only find her on 1901 census and onwards.
Thank you in advance for your help.
Cheers, Lee.
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Is there no birth registration for her in 1874?
Where has her exact date of birth come from please?
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Where has her exact date of birth come from please?
1939 register, probably
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Yes probably.
Do all the children have mothers name as Downes?
Failing to find a likely James Downes :-\.
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They appear to have mmn Downes
The total lack of a trail pre marriage suggests a combination of
a) James being fictitious
b) her age not being correct
c) her mother being with another man and she and Emily using that surname on censuses
d) Emily's real name being different - have come across a few Emmas who turn into Emily
Have checked out the witnesses to the marriage. At first glance there's no obvious connection
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Have found some potential siblings - both have father James Downes, carter, same as Emily
Elizabeth Downes b c1860 - marries Edward Holmes in 1880
Sarah Downes b c1861 - marries Matthew Edgar Edger in 1881
1891 - Aston
Edward Holmes 30 Head
Elizabeth Holmes 29 Wife
Amy T Holmes 8 Daughter
Kate L Holmes 3 Daughter
John R Downes 54 Father-in-law
Emma Downes 17 Sister-in-law
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here's the family in 1881
John Downs 47 Head
Sarah Downs 45
Sarah H. Downs 21
John Downs 14
Robert P. Downs 9 Son
Emma Downs 6
Leah L. Downs 1 (actually granddaughter, as she's with Sarah and Matthew Edge in later years)
William A. Downs 17
Robert marries in 1894 - father James Downes, carter, deceased
No idea why his name is changed
John Ramsden Downes
Age 60
Q3 1892
Aston Vol 6d p210
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Birth for Emilly
DOWNES, EMMA Mother - ATKINS
GRO Reference: 1874 M Quarter in ASTON Volume 06D Page 432
Other children registered with mother as Adkin(s) or Atkin(s)
Other children seem to name father as James Downes on their marriage, but he is always John on the census.
MARRIAGE 23 May 1858 Fazeley, St Paul
Bride - Sarah Atkins, age 21. Her father Robert ATKINS
Groom - John Downs Ramsdale, age 24. His father Abraham RAMSDALE
Birth of first son, John was in 1858, with the surname RAMSDALE
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Sarah ADKIN
Baptised 4 Dec 1834 Drayton Bassett, Stafford
Daughter of Robert and Sarah
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MARRIAGE 23 May 1858 Fazeley, St Paul
Bride - Sarah Atkins, age 21. Her father Robert ATKINS
Groom - John Downs Ramsdale, age 24. His father Abraham RAMSDALE
Image is on FindMyPast
Both John and Abraham are recorded as Downs on line 1, with Ramsdale squeezed underneath
John signs as John D. Ramsdale. Everybody is a Labourer
witnesses are Eliza Atkins and Abraham Atkins they both marked as did Sarah.
William A. in the census is William Abraham. on GRO as DOWENS
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John's baptism maybe? Says he is of Shenstone in 1881
this baptism St John The Baptist, Shenstone
July 16th 1833 - John son of Abraham & Ann RAMSHILL Labourer.
Abode = Footherley
March 11th 1838 a daughter Eliza baptised. All details same except now RAMSDALE
Abraham RAMSHILL & Ann DOWNS married at Shenstone 6th July 1833. Both OTP and both marked. Witnesses were Mary JONES & Thomas ADLAM. both marked.
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1841 census
Abraham RAMSELL 25 Ag Lab born in county. (Getting an idea for how they pronounced this)
Ann 25
John 8
Ann 2
Eliza 6 months
Philip DOWNS 15
(the P of Robert P DOWNS in earlier post is Philip)
1851 census
still at Footherley as RAMSALL - more children
Abraham 42 born Whateley, Warwickshire
But his wife is now named Mary 37. born Walsall Wood, Staffs
and a John HILTON age 18 also born Walsall Wood is visiting
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(EDIT - Some of this is repetition of above, but was typing it up, so posted anyway.)
The census gives John Downs birth around 1834 in Shenstone, Staffordshire
His father on his marriage is named Abraham Ramsdale
MARRIAGE 6 Jul 1833 Shenstone Staffs
Abraham RAMSHILL to Ann DOWNS
There are baptisms in Shenstone Staffs for children of Abraham RAMSDALE / RAMSHILL (Abraham is a labourer, and abode is Footherley)
John Ramshill - 15 July 1833 (bapt 9 days after marriage of parents Abraham and Ann)
George Ramsall 28 June 1835. (parents are Abraham and Ann) - Died 14 May 1838 burnt death.
Eliza Ramsdale 11 Mar 1838 (parents are Abraham and Ann)
BURIAL Shenstone 29 Mar 1838
Anne RAMSDALE age 26, abode Footherley
2nd MARRIAGE 26 June 1838 Aston Birmingham
Abraham Ramsdale (widower) labourer To Mary Hilton (spinster)
Further Baptisms in Shenstone:-
Ann Ramsdale 21 Apr 1839 (parents are Abraham and Mary)
Eliza Ramsdale 27 Dec 1840 (parents are Abraham and Mary)
Emma Ramsdale 2 Apr 1843 (parents are Abraham and Mary)
1841 census Abraham Ramsell, Footherley, Shenstone
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQTS-5SK?lang=en
Son John is age 8
Note Philip Downs in the same house
1851 census Abraham Ramsell, Shenstone
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGG3-Z2C?lang=en
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Aug 16th 1891 - there is a burial at Shenstone of an Abraham RAMSALL age 79 of Shenstone Woodend
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Aug 16th 1891 - there is a burial at Shenstone of an Abraham RAMSALL age 79 of Shenstone Woodend
Adding a bit ......
1891 census Shenstone, Staffordshire
Abraham RAMSELL age 80 is living with his son George
Death for Abraham Ramsall 1891
Burial 16 Aug 1891 Shenstone
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There is an image on FindMyPast - PR for Kingsbury, Warwickshire
At the bottom of the page in November 1812 is (day of month after 22nd but not clear)
All it says is
John Ramsall was born 1808 November
Abraham Ramsall was born 1801 July
No parents noted. Yet they seem to know when they were born.
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On Abraham's second marriage in 1838 his father is given as Thomas Ramsdale, a labouer.
Transcription of the baptism gives mother as Elizabeth
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5f903531f493fd2d872f1f47/abraham-ramsall-baptism-warwickshire-kingsbury-1812-04-19?locale=en
Abraham's baptism is on the same day as his brother John.
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Children of Thomas and Elizabeth RAMSELL / RAMSAL (various spellings) at Kingsbury
Edward William 1799
Isaac 1801
Thomas 1803
Elizabeth 1806
Richard 1807
John 1812 (born 1808)
Abraham 1812 (born 1801)
MARRIAGE 15 Oct 1798 Kingsbury
Elizabeth COURTS to Thomas RAMSDALE
Both OTP, both sign X
Witnesses- Sarah Courts and Thomas Myring
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On Abraham's second marriage in 1838 his father is given as Thomas Ramsdale, a labouer.
Transcription of the baptism gives mother as Elizabeth
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5f903531f493fd2d872f1f47/abraham-ramsall-baptism-warwickshire-kingsbury-1812-04-19?locale=en
Abraham's baptism is on the same day as his brother John.
I agree extremely likely the parents are Thomas & Elizabeth, but I would like to know where FreeReg got the names from for the 1812 record! Its definitely not on the image I have access to on FindMyPast
Can't attach it here as a lookup board.
here. https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=890971.new#new
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The image I can see on Ancestry, is in VERY bad condition and is a very poor copy.
You can just read the baptism for John with parents Thomas and Elizabeth Ramsall
Directly below but with same date I see
Bapt Abrahman son of ............... & Elizabeth Ramsall
image here
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=890971.msg7649173#msg7649173
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WOW, superb! I'm absolutely flabbergasted!
I only posted late last night before bed, and due to it being Easter, never thought I'd get any replies for a week! So to wake up and see that you have all put in so much work on my behalf... Thank you ALL ever so much.
This branch has been always been a thorn in my side (pardon the pun) and to be able to actually get names and family members is amazing. There is a lot of information to process. I'll be writing it all out and piecing it together before putting in my tree.
I honestly can't thank you all enough. I hope you all have a great Easter.
Cheers, Lee.
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Well Lee, we had both the day shift, and the night shift working on it. ;) Being a long weekend, there was time to fill in.
We have posted quite a bit, and It gets rather complicated with the changed name and the various spellings of Ramsell- Ramsdale - and etc.
Just call out if it doesn't make sense.
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And here its been bucketing down with rain. Remnants of Cyclone Tan, so nothing else important to do,
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Well done to those who picked up my baton
I still can't work out why someone who's clearly John on all censuses is James on all his children's marriage certs!
Looks like Sarah his wife died in 1885. I forgot to say he's a widower on the 1891 census, and also described as an imbecile