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Some Special Interests => Travelling People => Topic started by: TraceyD on Sunday 20 April 25 16:23 BST (UK)
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I am once again looking for further information on my great grandmother Phoebe Davis / Hughes, who was a flower hawker/gypsy, and I am much further along with her than before and have discovered her family (parents and siblings) but there are still some brick walls and mysteries to be resolved regarding her children.
Phoebe was born Phoebe Hughes in 1868 in Chatham, Kent, and on the 7th April 1899 she arrived at the Wandsworth workhouse where she had my Grandfather John Hughes Davis on the 6th May 1899. On her sons birth certificate Phoebe stated that she was a flower hawker and gave her address as 11, Point Pleasant, Wandsworth, London, a lodging house. Phoebe left the Wandsworth workhouse on the 20th May 1899, leaving her newly born son behind.
On the workhouse records it stated that she arrived with another child (name unknown), also that
in 1893 Phoebe had given birth to child (male) on Hastings Heath (?) which sadly died at the age of three weeks. It was after this she ran away from home to be with her eldest sister.
With my continuing research into Phoebe I have located a 'Phoebe Davis' correct age in Newington Workhouse, Westmoreland Road in 1891, where she had given birth to a girl also called Phoebe Davis on the 17th July 1891 (admitted to the workhouse on the 18/07/1891 and discharged on the 06/08/1891). I am curious to know more about this child and whether it is possible this is the child that was with her in 1899?
Phoebe also had another child 'Charlotte Hughes' on the 28th February 1908 in Dartford, Kent. At Dartford workhouse, 37 West Hill, Dartford, Kent. On Charlotte’s birth certificate Phoebe gave her address as The Old Gaol, Lowfield Street, Dartford and her occupation was a Flower Hawker. I am also struggling to find further information about this child? Although I have located her on the 1911 and 1939 census.
Any help/information would be greatly appreciated. TIA
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possible burial for daughter Phoebe ?
Joyce Green Hospital Cemetery, Dartford 26 March 1902 Phoebe Davis aged 11
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Hi Osprey,
How sad, that is of course possible, will have a look to see if I can find a death certificate.
Thank you
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I have had a look and have found some info but not sure if it’s the same Phoebe Hughes.
Do you know who raised your grandfather and where the surname Davis comes from?
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Hi Francy76,
On the 1901 census my grandfather and his parents Phoebe and John Davis were living at number 4 Short Road, West Ham, Essex, and his father's occupation was listed as a hawker.
In 1906 he was found and put on a charge of ‘wandering’ and admitted to St Vincent’s School for young boys, Whitstable, Kent. At the age of ten (1909) he was transferred to Vincent’s Industrial School, Dartford, Kent, and was discharged on the 19th January 1915.
The surname Davis comes from his father John Michael Davis born on the 12/02/1881 Brentford, Middlesex and died in January 1958 Kensington, London.
Any help on Phoebe and her children would be much appreciated, as even after all these years there are still so many unknowns that I am keen to crack.
Thank you
Edited: due to typo put year in twice
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Are Phoebe and Charlotte together as Hughes in 1911? I can’t see Charlotte after that, what happens to Phoebe?
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Yes, they were at 27 West Street, Gravesend, Kent in 1911 - it's after then I can find no trace of her, or the two girls I believe she had (Charlotte and Phoebe).
I am not sure if the Charlotte Hughes I have found in 1939 is correct.
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Thanks for your reply. I believe we are talking about the same person.
Prior to John Davis, Phoebe was married to Isaac Frondigoun in 1891, with whom she had four children. She also gave birth to a son called Joseph in 1897 who unfortunately died soon after birth.
I wonder if this is the child you were referring to but the workhouse got the year wrong?
I have a copy of the marriage certificate and a little bit more info but not sure if you already have these? Happy to send them to you if you would like x
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Frondigoun birth registrations with mothers name Hughes in Gravesend
Lydia Gertrude Dec 1889
Isaac Richard Mar 1891
Phoebe Sep 1892
Mary Ann Dec 1893
Joseph Sep 1897
there may be others with different surname spelling
You may have it but there is a divorce petition brought by Isaac in 1896
all very confusing but in 1901 Isaac is with children Gertrude 12 Isaac 10 May 12
Is this the same Phoebe do you think? The divorce mentions a Joseph Banham
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Thanks both for your replies.
I have not explored those possibilities before regarding Phoebe marrying an Isaac Frondigoun so do not have the marriage certificate or divorce petition, also not heard or come across a Joseph Banham before.
If it helps Phoebe's parents were Samuel Thomas Hughes 1827-1895 and Diana Hughes 1830-1892, as a family in 1871 were living at 24, South Street, Queensborough, Sheppy, Kent, in 1881 they living in a travelling van at Canal Field, Milton in Gravesend, Kent.
Any help or info you can give would be great either to rule in or out it is the Phoebe I am looking for.
I have also never been able to trace her death so think it must of been under a different surname.
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Hi Tracey,
I have uploaded a copy of the marriage certificate - hope it’s visible. If not, I can try sending it to you via dm.
Phoebe identifies her father as “Samuel Hughes, Hawker”, so I think we can be quite confident that this is indeed your great grandmother.
The children mentioned in Milliepede’s message are correct to the best of my knowledge.
I see you have also found Isaac’s divorce petition against Phoebe from 1896 where he mentions Joseph Benham. Interesting that in 1897 Phoebe gave birth to a son and named him Joseph.
It seems Phoebe’s marriage to Isaac was a difficult one, as I have also found some newspaper articles where Phoebe brought charges of assault against her husband. If you have access to a newspaper search, look for “Frondigan” as this will probably give you the best results.
Hope this helps. Happy to take a deeper dive on the children and let you know if I find anything if you’d like xx
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Hope this works
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She had a colourful life to say the least.
There’s a photo of Isaac on a family tree with a lady but later in life so possibly a second wife/partner Charlotte Fuller who was his housekeeper in 1911. There are 4 young children with them in 1911 with middle name Fuller.
Children Gertrude and Isaac grew up and married so lots for you to look at.
Mary Ann too I think.
Where did you possibly have Phoebe and/or Charlotte in 1939?
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Thank you both so much, this is really interesting.
Are you able to send me a copy of the divorce petition? I also sadly currently do not have access to the newspaper search so will have to look at getting it.
On the 1911 census Phoebe is living with Charlotte in Gravesend, Kent. Charlotte was born on the 25th February 1908 at Dartford workhouse, 37 West Hill, Dartford, Kent. On Charlotte’s birth certificate Phoebe gave her address as The Old Gaol, Lowfield Street, Dartford and her occupation was a Flower Hawker.
In the 1939 register I found a Charlotte Hughes in Bermondsey, London but now realise this is a red herring.
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Update; I have managed to obtain a copy of the divorce petition, thank you - reading it now.
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Glad you have accessed it.
The 1911 entry with Charlotte she has knocked years off her age.
Will keep looking for what happened to Phoebe.
Can find more on the 3 children who married if you need it.
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Thank you would really appreciate that.
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Would need to double check all the details but there is Isaac with father Isaac who marries in 1921 Middleham Yorkshire.
He is a groom. Death in 1931.
Bride was Mary Wilkinson who remarries as a widow in 1933.
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Gertrude possibly marries twice first Nadal then Carr.
Death as Gertrude L Carr in 1949 Lambeth.
Gertrude Lydia Nadal marries Ernest Thomas Carr in 1916.
Single in 1911 so first marriage must be 1911-1916 **
** 1914 Gertrude L Frondigan
Louis H Nadal - death in 1915 age 28
Gertrude A J Nadal born in 1915
Would need to check the marriage(s) to confirm father was Isaac
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Thank you.
Looking on Ancestry it is bringing up Clara Phoebe Bertie Hughes, birth 1870, Clapham, Surrey, death 1941, Surrey as Isaac Frondigoun's wife - so this throws doubt on whether this is my Phoebe.
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Yes I saw those hints too but if you look at the Clara records more closely it’s a different person to your Phoebe.
If you have ancestry have a look at the family tree with Isaac’s photo on, that has lots of information about him and the children.
There is a private tree as well you could message.
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Hi Milliepede,
Yes, I have the Isaac Richard Frondigown on Ancestry with the Isaac's photo on but I must admit I am a little confused by the Isaac R Cooke-Frondigoun tree which has the same birth year and place, with marriages to Charlotte Fuller, Clara Phoebe Bertie Hughes and the children.
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If you find Isaac in 1911 he is with young children who have Fuller as the middle name and a housekeeper called Charlotte Fuller.
He did marry Charlotte Fuller in 1915.
Will double check Clara again to be on the safe side.
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Clara Phoebe Beatrice Hughes marries in 1896 to Rupert John Guille.
She names her father as William Hughes deceased and she is a spinster age 26.
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Thanks Milliepede, having looked at the family tree for Isaac Richard Frondigown on Ancestry with Isaac's photo on I see it now, thank you. I have messaged the owner of the tree.
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That’s good. Do let us know if you find out anything else.
I was thinking as you have the exact birth date for Charlotte does that help locate her in 1939?
She could be under another surname of course or called Lottie.