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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Leitrim => Topic started by: Beavances on Saturday 19 April 25 22:21 BST (UK)
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Hi I have attached a extract showing a birth place in Ireland - I think this is Drumkeeran and wonder if others would agree?
I am hoping to visit Ireland soon and intend to visit Drumkeeran ( if others think this is the likely place!). I wonder if there is anywhere where I may be able to find a baptism record for Mary born there in 1847?
I also have details of Mary's marriage, (1871 In Selkirk, Scotland) which shows her parents as Phelan McPartlan and Agnes Neillan. Would there still be any records available of their marriage?
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Where is the extract from please?
Is it from a census, if so which one pl?
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On the 1834 Tithe Applotment on FS there is a record for Phelin McPartland and also an Andrew McPartland in Co Leitrim. Inishmagrath but there may be other townlands
Griffiths Valuation 1857 shows about 80 apx Mc Partland Names
https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/index.xml?action=nameSearch
https://titheapplotmentbooks.nationalarchives.ie/pagestab/Leitrim/
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VX5S-F7W?lang=en
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Where is the extract from please?
Is it from a census, if so which one pl?
It says 1921 in the attachment name.
Looks like 1921 census - E/W?
Difficult to guess the placename - it's all smudged
Drumkeeran
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/14612634#map=14/54.16897/-8.14018
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Thankyou for your replies. Kiltglassan you are correct this extract for Mary Brannen ( Nee McPartlan) is from the 1921 English census. This is the only record I can find where she notes the name of her birthplace but in every census I have found her - (the first being in 1871 around the same time she marries) she notes that she was born in Ireland. I have not found her on the 1861 or 1851.
Shanreagh the attachments you have included are all new information to me. I've not worked with Griffiths Valuations before and will go through these today. Much appreciated.
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If the location is Drumkeeran (and I am not certain that it is), be aware there are 3 such places in Co. Leitrim. There is the town in the parish of Inishmagrath but also 2 townlands in the parishes of Annaduff and Kiltoghert. You can find them all on Griffiths.
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Ah ! I hadn't realised that - thankyou.
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If the location is Drumkeeran (and I am not certain that it is), be aware there are 3 such places in Co. Leitrim. There is the town in the parish of Inishmagrath but also 2 townlands in the parishes of Annaduff and Kiltoghert. You can find them all on Griffiths.
Like Elwyn I am not certain that the townland is Drumkeeran. Perhaps you could ask for ideas from the Handwriting section of Rootschat. There are some real handwriting experts there who may be able to see beyond the ink pen!
In the meantime have you tracked siblings and all the children of Mary Branne/an to see where they say they lived? Some of them may have had a better ink pen!
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That is a good idea to ask for help about the place name on the handwriting board - I will do that.
As for the names of Mary's children, I have traced them all. Following Marys marriage in Scotland all her children were born in either Scotland of England. Mary's marriage is the earliest document I have with her name and age. I know that Mary was Irish but this is the only census record I have found where she names her birthplace. I've never been able to trace her siblings or parents although I have parents names from her marriage certificate.
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The 1871 Selkirk marriage shows Phelan and wife Agnes as both alive at that date. That’s helpful because death registration only started in Ireland in 1864. But now you know you are searching after that (assuming the parents died in Ireland). It’s possible Phelan & Agnes also moved to Scotland with Mary. Have you checked for that?
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I have checked the Scottish records for Phelan & Agnes' names names but have not found anything. I will check the Irish records and let you know if I find anything. Thanks for the suggestions.
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I have checked the Scottish records for Phelan & Agnes' names names but have not found anything. I will check the Irish records and let you know if I find anything. Thanks for the suggestions.
The 1834 Tithe applotment records has a record for Phelin, and Griffiths has at least 80 McPartland etc names. have you checked all these?
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Hi Shanreagh I managed yesterday to locate the Tithe record showing Phelin McPartlan and noted that the land in his name was 'of poor quality'. With the Griffiths Valuations I have located some of the names but need to do more work on that.
My last comment about looking in the Scottish Records (and needing to look in the Irish records) was about BMD's.
I now have several suggestions for types of searches to do which I am grateful.
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The 1871 Selkirk marriage certificate says Phelin was a labourer. In general, the folk listed in the tithes were farmers. The tithes were in effect a tax based on the amount of land you held, excluding anything less than about an acre. So labourers generally weren’t listed in the tithes. I wouldn’t rush to assume the Phelin in those records must be your family. It probably isn’t.
Griffiths did list many labourers, as well as farmers and so can be more helpful. Farmers will have a bit of land (measured in acres, roods & perches), labourers generally just a house and a few perches, if that.
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The 1871 Selkirk marriage certificate says Phelin was a labourer. In general, the folk listed in the tithes were farmers. The tithes were in effect a tax based on the amount of land you held, excluding anything less than about an acre. So labourers generally weren’t listed in the tithes. I wouldn’t rush to assume the Phelin in those records must be your family. It probably isn’t.
Griffiths did list many labourers, as well as farmers and so can be more helpful. Farmers will have a bit of land (measured in acres, roods & perches), labourers generally just a house and a few perches, if that.
The Selkirk marriage was in Scotland so ideas of labourers or farmers were not the same as in Ireland. Apart from the famine, setting people on the move, another reason was that land was transferred to oldest son or the son most interested in farming. In Ireland, because of circs people who would have been farmers now were listed as labourers.
The rest, who may have been able to live in Ireland in days past, doing labouring/farm work with the odd bit of travel to help in harvesting found it difficult to get work. These ones often moved to Scotland where in effect they started anew. Phelin may not have been the oldest son & may have found it difficult to find work in Ireland and so moved to Scotland.
This being the case I most definitely would not dismiss Phelin from a link to the various families in Griffiths or the Tithes Applotment. Much more work will be needed to do this including knowing the names and birth order of the children in case the family followed the Irish naming pattern.
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I do take heed with the points made. Thank you - what you has been said makes total sense.
The information from Griffiths which names a Phelin is not something i would automatically link to this family. There is not enough to confirm a link to Mary ( who may or may not be a daughter) who marries in Scotland in 1871.
There is also the mis-match between someone who owned land in Ireland and listed as labourer at a later date.
That said though it could be the same Phelin/Phelan - which could potentially be very exciting !
I think, for now, I need to park this is until I work out, one way or another, what is the birthplace name Mary has stated on the 1921. Only when I have worked which place in Ireland it is can I reliably start searching the records.
Thanks all
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If you're parking things to come back to, then park this marriage as well just in case it's relevant, it's of a Michael McPartland of Ross More townland, son of Phelim McPartlan a farmer, who in Inishmagrath RC Church in 1867 married an Anne Lyons of what I'm assuming is the nearby townland of Kilnagarns Upper or Lower:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11484/8221497.pdf
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Phelin can be spelt in several ways
Phelan
Phelim
Phelin
I would not put too much on the changes of spelling of his first name bearing mind the low levels of literacy, the change of country and accents.
From Mrs Google
Phelin can be used as a first name, especially for boys. It's an uncommon but distinct variant of the Irish Gaelic names Felan or Faolán, which mean "little wolf" or "wolf cub". The name has a history in Irish mythology and folklore, where wolves were associated with strength and guardianship. While not as popular as names like Liam or Aidan, Phelin offers a unique choice for those seeking a name with Irish roots.
John Grenham and McPartlan/d
https://www.johngrenham.com/findasurname.php?surname=mcpartlan
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Bearing in mind that this name, Mary Brannen, was written in Scotland I wonder about accents etc.
For instance someone has written 'Ireland' above Leitrim, not sure if it was an annotating mark for the census or someone's idea of what the name was. I think the former as it does not look like Ireland but it does look like Leitrim.
Above the location name the word 'Drumcaran' has been written. If this is an annotators marking then it does look like what has been written there. Again what has been written was presumably by a person other than Mary Brannen, so it may be questionable that it is the spelling of what she or the person giving the information actually said.
There are other townlands that are worth searching
Drumcarra
Drumcanon and that does have a McPartlan/d in Griffiths
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If you're parking things to come back to, then park this marriage as well just in case it's relevant, it's of a Michael McPartland of Ross More townland, son of Phelim McPartlan a farmer, who in Inishmagrath RC Church in 1867 married an Anne Lyons of what I'm assuming is the nearby townland of Kilnagarns Upper or Lower:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11484/8221497.pdf
Good spot Gaffy.
Noteworthy also is that the Parish Priest is James McPartlan
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Hi - Wow! more interesting documents. Thankyou gaffy for the information with marriage showing Phelan McPartlan as the father of the groom (Michael McPartland) ...and, as you say, the priest is a McPartlan too! The year of 1867 would, if this does turn out to be the correct family, suggest that Michael is an older brother of Mary.
Shanreagh the link to the map showing the distribution of the name McPartlan was fascinating and new to me.
Can I ask which is considered to be the best site for Irish searches? I know the records are not complete but which site do you think would be the better one for this time period? (Mary's birth was 1847 - so presumably her parents were also from there and born around 20 years earlier. I know Mary was in Scotland by 1871.
I have found with the sites I have used that I can get an initial look but then I am asked to log in. I'm happy to pay for a site but don't know which will give best coverage. For example, the John Grenham map site which suggested many marriages and births when I first looked at it now requires me to subscribe. I'm unsure if I do subscribe to that if it would also link to the certificates ?
I take the point raised about how accents can affect what people hear when talking about place names. The extract I attached form the 1921 is from the English census. At the top of the column it asks: 'If born outside of the UK write the name of the country'. I think the enumerator has added Ireland as only the district of Leitrim had been included on the form.
And, as well as that dodgy pen the other thing which would affect what was heard would certainly be the accent! Although Mary had lived in Scotland, I do not know for how long - so it is unclear whether her accent would be Irish of Scottish. Also this census was completed by Mary's son-in-law, he was form the North East of England and definitely and a Geordie accent . At the time Mary and son-in-law were in Yorkshire so presumably that is where the enumerator was from.
Thanks , one again all who have offered ideas.
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"Scotland, Civil Registration, 1855-1875, 1881, 1891", FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6TFP-Q2W8 : Fri Oct 25 22:05:36 UTC 2024), Entry for James Brenan and James Brenan, 9 Mar 1871.Name
Agnes Neillan McPartlan
Sex F
Agnes Neillan McPartlan's Spouses and Children
Pharlan McPartlan
Husband
M
Mary McPartlan
Child
23
Other People on This Record
James Brenan
24
James Brenan person details
Name James Brenan
Age 24
Birth Year (Estimated) 1847
Marital Status Single
Father's Name James Brenan
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Isabella Holleran Brenan
Mother's Sex Female
Spouse's Name Mary McPartlan
Spouse's Age 23
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1848
Spouse's Marital Status Single
Spouse's Father's Name Pharlan McPartlan
Spouse's Father's Sex Male
Spouse's Mother's Name Agnes Neillan McPartlan
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 9 Mar 1871
Event Place Selkirk, Selkirkshire, Scotland, United Kingdom
James Brenan
M
Isabella Holleran Brenan
F
"Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1740-1900", FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6BY8-DGG8 : Thu Nov 21 09:47:17 UTC 2024), Entry for Stephen McPartlan and Phelan? McPartlan, 1837.
Name Stephen McPartlan
Father's Name Phelan? McPartlan
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Kitty Dolan
Mother's Sex Female
Event Type Baptism
Event Date 1837
Event Place Innismagrath, County Leitrim, Ireland
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Just something to bear in mind about the map on John Grenham's site, great and all as it is, the list is how the names were spelt in Griffith's Valuation, not necessarily how the same families are named in other records.
For example the 6 Partlin names in St.Mary's Westmeath, in other records are all Partland apart from the ones who went to Australia where they become Partlon. (I'm related to all of them)
John's site gives you 3 free searches a day, just wait until tomorrow, you get 3 more.
No one site will give you everything, most are free and don't require any registration.
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Name Stephen McPartlan
Father's Name Phelan? McPartlan
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Kitty Dolan
Mother's Sex Female
Event Type Baptism
Event Date 1837
Event Place Innismagrath, County Leitrim, Ireland
Ennismagrath
Diocese of Kilmore | County of Leitrim
Variant forms of parish name: Drumkeerin, Innismagrath, Drumkeren
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/0830?locale=en
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000634852?locale=en#page/34/mode/1up
(5th line down, right hand page - 13 Oct? 1837)
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Yes, he married and his first children were born in Drumkeeran.
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Thanks - and a query!
Firstly, I can't thank you all enough for your and knowledge time in helping me.
Sinann, the tip about 3 searches a day will be useful. Also I understand what you say about the way the name can be written in various ways and that is is easy to confuse with similar sounding names.
The information from Scottish records on Family search, found by PatLac confirms exactly what is on the marriage certificate.
The baptism record Stephen, son for a Phelan (?) McPartlan is something I have not seen before. So maybe a brother for Michael, who married in 1867 and is also a son of a Phelan McPartlan(d) (entry posted by shanreagh)
Looking at the attached record of Catholic Parish Records ( posted by Kiltaglassen) are new records to me. I see the 1837 entry at 13 for Stephen, son of Phelin and Kitty and have assumed that the two names, James R? and Dolly MPartlan are witnesses. I hope that is correct.
I notices also that the entry above, entry 12, has Miles & Kitty Mc Partlan which, I am again, presuming they are witnesses.
I think I need a big piece of paper to start putting all these possibilities into some sort of order. I am very excited at what you have all found but I need to remind myself that the Mary McPartlan ( born 1847 & married in Selkirk, Scotland in 1871) who I started looking for says she is the daughter of Phelan Mc Partlan and Agnes Neillan.
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Could this be Agnes?
"Ireland, Catholic Parish Registers, 1740-1900", FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:6V1K-6746 : Thu Nov 21 13:44:31 UTC 2024), Entry for Mrs McPartlan, 30 Jan 1872.
Phelim McPartlan
"Ireland, Civil Registration, 1845-1913", FamilySearch (https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QGK1-L5R9 : Mon Mar 04 17:52:32 UTC 2024), Entry for Phelim McPartlan, 4 Jan 1868.
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Could this be Agnes ? Well I suppose it could but it is a bit strange to just have the title Mrs and no Christian name on a records. I don't think I've ever seen that before.
The death for Phelim/Phelan/Pharlan in 1872 would, along with the other possibilities found by you good folk, give a time frame of
Phelim McPartlan birth 1788,
baptism of Phelim McPartlan and Kitty Dolan's son - Stephen McPartlan 1837
remarriage of Phelim to Agnes
birth of Phelim McPartlan and Agnes Neillan's daughter - Mary in 1847 ( from her marriage certificate in 1871)
marriage of Phelim McPartlan & ?? son Michael McPartlan, a widower, in 1867
All of which, on paper, looks as though it could work. I've now recorded on my paper records but wont be adding it to any on-line tree as I don't think its enough enough to confirm that they are all the people from the same family. I would love it if it was!! Would you agree or am I being just too cautious?
I've seen to many warnings on here about people who add names that are possibilities and before you know it they have a tree that is full of just that ... possibilities.
A big thank you to all who have pondered over this, made suggestions, searched for things and posted.
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I agree in part. Sometimes you build a tree online so the system can search for potential matches, if it turns out they're not good matches, you can delete the entries. It's always a work in progress because some data are not yet in the system but can be added in the near future. You can always set it as private or add notes to make sure people don't think the information is 100% accurate (yet).
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Hi PatLac -That's a good idea and I'd not though about making the tree private but searchable - along with added noted about it being a work in progress. thanks for that.