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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: Helina on Monday 14 April 25 08:46 BST (UK)
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Need help with Charles's wife please.
Charles Frederick Kimberley born 1899 Southwark, In 1923 he married Mary A A Walsh. Mary was born about 1895 but her surname seems to alter. On the 1939 census she is born on the 1st Sept 1895 married to Charles with a daughter called Elizabeth. Both ancestry and FindMyPast have Mary's baptism on the 22nd Sept 1895 birth again 1 Sept 1895, she was baptised at St. John, Walworth. Now the problem, her name is Mary Ann Alice Carpenter, parents Alfred and Elizabeth Carpenter. Looked for a marriage before 1923 with no luck, maybe she was adopted? Can find no birth reg on the GRO site or FreeBMD with the surname Walsh or Carpenter only one I could find was on ancestry.
"Mary Ann A Carpenter, R date 1895, Oct-Dec, St Saviour Southwark, V1d, P30.
Have I the right Mary who married Charles if so how did her surname get changed.
Any help would be appreciated
helina
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The marriage certificate from 1923 would be a good starting point to confirm her fathers name.
Can you find her on earlier census as a child under either surname?
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ADDED Probably best to ignore this, but I’ll leave it here just in case.
I found a tree which may or may not be useful – looks very confusing!
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/101139016/person/422552583762/facts?_phsrc=BiS1&_phstart=successSource (https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/101139016/person/422552583762/facts?_phsrc=BiS1&_phstart=successSource)
Added: Having dug around in the tree, I think it may be a load of rubbish! It has her father dying in 1895 and marrying her mother in 1897, for example.
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GRO birth registration has mothers name Medrick. Carpenter surname but the tree has parents marriage 1897 after her birth?
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Where is the Carpenter family in 1901?
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Be wary of that tree on Anc*
Marriages Mar 1895
Carpenter William Alfred E Pewsey 5a 209
Mould Lucy Knight Pewsey 5a 209
Births Jun 1896
Carpenter Mary Stanley Pewsey 5a 159
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Lucy Knight Carpenter was a witness to Mary Stanleys marriage.
SS
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You say in 1939 there is a daughter Elizabeth - what maiden name is on her birth registration?
If born 1932 it was Welsh
I think the 1923 marriage is a must to get more clarity on who she names as her father etc
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Where is the Carpenter family in 1901?
1891 census
Alfred*** Carpenter Head Married Male 35 1856 Tinman Southwark, Surrey, England
Elizabeth Carpenter Wife Married Female 34 1857 - London, Middlesex, England
Alfred* Carpenter Son - Male 11 1880 Scholar Southwark, Surrey, England
Samuel Carpenter Son - Male 0 1891 - London, Middlesex, England
Henry* Medrick Brother in law Single Male 34 1857 Dock labourer London,
* all have mmn Medrick
*** Alfred dies
CARPENTER, ALFRED 39
GRO Reference: 1895 J Quarter in ST OLAVE Volume 01D Page 93
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1901
Elizabeth Carpenter Wife Widow Female 41 1860 Brush drawer Southwark, Surrey, England
Alfred Carpenter Son Single Male 21 1880 Assistant publisher's Southwark, Surrey, England
Samuel Carpenter Son - Male 10 1891 - Southwark, Surrey, England
Alice Carpenter Daughter - Female 6 1895 - Southwark, Surrey, England
CARPENTER, MARY ANN ALICE MEDRICK
GRO Reference: 1895 D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SOUTHWARK LONDON Volume 01D Page 30
Wondering if between 1901-11 mother has set up home/remarried?
SS
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Thank you for your advice, I have come across a Mary Stanley but ruled her out.
Yes I agree a marriage certificate is the answer.
I will have a look to see any marriages for the mother Elizabeth, also Charles and Mary's daughter Elizabeth born 1932 gives the mother's surname as Walsh. She also has a sister 1923 but as her name is not on the 1939 reg she could still be alive
helina
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The sister born 1923 is open on FindMyPast. She died in 2003 as Alice Hetty Horsley.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/7579/records/11997615
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Where/when was the marriage for Alfred Carpenter and Elizabeth Medrick?
Think she is born Mary Elizabeth Medrick.
There are workhouse admissions for Elizth Medrick age 19 in 1877 Southwark
And at age 17 having a base born son.
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I can't see a marriage, but agree she's Mary Elizabeth, following back her and her brother Henry who's with her and Alfred on 1891. The Medrick name gets mangled, including Metherick
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Elizabeth 17 and Charles 19 days old in the workhouse in 1876 but looks like he died.
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How sad regarding baby Charles. I have searched for a marriage between Elizabeth (mother) and a Mr Walsh between 1901 and 1923 on FreeBMD, nothing.
Again thank you for your help.
You may have guessed I have been researching the Kimberley and not easy lack of birth reg even though they were born after registration was made compulsory, also they seem to live a sad life in and out of the workhouse.
helina
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Which birth registration(s) are you missing?
I don’t know how she got the surname Walsh or if she married as single or widowed etc but if Alfred Carpenter died in 1895 and she was born in 1895, depending on the dates, that might indicate a different father was involved?
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Just posting this out of interest.
WELSH, STEWART ALFRED mmn CARPENTER
GRO Reference: 1918 J Quarter in CAMBERWELL Volume 01D Page 1094 Occasional Copy: A
This lad appears as Welch, an "adopted son" born London in 1921 in Leeds.
Believe this is him in 1939 with adoptive mother
Jack Taylor 10 May 1918
Jack Taylor
10 May 1918
Mar 1992
Hull
Humberside
SS