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Beginners => Family History Beginners Board => Topic started by: Sasbear on Monday 14 April 25 03:30 BST (UK)
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Hi,
I would like to know if it was possible to register a child's birth in 1860 with the father's surname and mmn correct but they didn't marry till a few months after the birth of child? I wondered if when registering a birth, the parent/s had to provide evidence of some sort?
Thanks for any help
Sarah
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I assume you're talking about England or Wales? As I understand it there was no requirement to provide evidence of a marriage. The information was simply provided to the Registrar (prior to 1874 the person registering the birth had to find the Registrar - they didn't necessarily have a stipulated place where registrations occurred). Unless the couple was personally known to the Registrar he would have no reason to question the information provided. Who was the informant on the birth you have?
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Thanks - Yes a UK birth. I haven't sent for the certificate yet. Child was born about 3 months before the wedding took place, but is registered with father's name.
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Depending where the birth took place, you may be able to locate a baptism record.
There might be more details on it.
Some here may be able to help if you gave more details.
Sue
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I have one where parents claim to be married on the birth certificate of a son but never were and never did.
Information was taken at face value.
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And I have just been sorting one where the married parents decided to disappear from Sheffield to Manchester for 12 years or so, using the wife's surname. Children 2,3 and 4 out of 5 were registered with the correct mmn AND the same surname, not the father's surname. Anything is possible!
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I would like to know if it was possible to register a child's birth in 1860 with the father's surname and mmn correct but they didn't marry till a few months after the birth of child?
Yes definitely. My great great grandmother registered the birth of her first child using her married surname, and went on to actually marry the father the very next day.
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No proof of marriage (or name) would be required - the information is taken as the informant gives it. That is still largely the case today.
I would like to know if it was possible to register a child's birth in 1860 with the father's surname and mmn correct but they didn't marry till a few months after the birth of child?
You are however misunderstanding how birth registration works - In E/W the child was given no surname at all until 1969, so the entries are INDEXED under the surname of one or both parents depending on who is named on the entry, and their (claimed) marital status.
It is impossible to determine what is on the entry with absolute accuracy from the indexes alone.
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I haven't sent for the certificate yet.
You can get an instant digital image from the GRO for just £3
Possibly this one?
BRADSHAW, MATILDA
Mother's Maiden Surname: GUEST
GRO Reference: 1860 M Quarter in SHEFFIELD Volume 09C Page 279
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As Anthony says 'It is impossible to determine what is on the entry with absolute accuracy from the indexes alone.'
Looking at the index it would be easy to assume I am the child of a married couple (E/W birth in 1966), but it is only when viewing the certificate that it's apparent there is no father named. My birth registration follows all the requirements but the index itself doesn't provide all the information or represent the whole story.
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Thanks, Yes that's the one I was referring to. I think I will get a digital image and take a look. Can't find a baptism record, but that doesn't mean there is none. Her parents were William Bradshaw b 1839 Sheffield and Eliza/Elizabeth Guest (Norton is her birth name-but certificate of marriage says surname is Guest- long story). Matilda was born on 18th Feb 1860, as per the details on the 1939 register. The marriage took place on 29th July 1860.
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I don't wish to throw a cat amongst the pigeons, but the d/o/b on the 1939 register doesn't always match the d/o/b on a birth certificate.
I've encountered multiple occasions where I have the birth cert. and once I 100% accurately locate that person on the 1939 register, the d/o/b doesn't match. Usually it's close, for example, the 3rd May instead of the 3rd of July.
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" Her parents were William Bradshaw b 1839 Sheffield and Eliza/Elizabeth Guest (Norton is her birth name-but certificate of marriage says surname is Guest- long story). Matilda was born on 18th Feb 1860, as per the details on the 1939 register. "
If you are researching the origins of...?....Matilda GUEST.....can you please list all the information that you see on the marriage certificate.......everything please.
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Where does Norton appear as her birth name please?
If she was born before parents married then technically she would have mothers surname ie Guest and if father was Bradshaw I can’t see a Norton link :-\
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I think Sasbear means that Eliza GUEST who married William BRADSHAW was actually born Eliza NORTON. But will wait for Sasbear to confirm. ;)
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I think Sasbear means that Eliza GUEST who married William BRADSHAW was actually born Eliza NORTON. But will wait for Sasbear to confirm. ;)
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I think Sasbear means that Eliza GUEST who married William BRADSHAW was actually born Eliza NORTON. But will wait for Sasbear to confirm. ;)
Yes Elizabeth Guest. That is the line of enquiry. Lots of help from a Sheffield forum, and lots of hypotheses, but I will still keep searching for answers.
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Thanks for clarifying. I thought Matilda Guest was the issue not her mother.
So her mother is born Eliza Norton but marries as Eliza Guest
If her mother was Norton then married a Guest I don’t quite see what the problem is :-\
What record has her with the surname Norton please?
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Have you obtained a copy of the birth cert for Matilda from 1860 yet?
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The topic title is registering a birth in the 1860's so it has to be about Matilda doesn't it ???
If she was born in 1860 then her mother wouldn't be born in the 1860's, yep still confused sorry :-\
Could you clarify please Sasbear which record has the Norton name on it? Thank you
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It is never safe to rely on the details on certificates being true. I have two birth certificates from the early 1900s where the parents were cohabiting under the man’s surname but while both were still married to other people. The mother was the informant on each birth, all the information is correct except she changed the surname they were using to a totally different one except for the initial letter W.
My mother-in-law was illegitimate, no father named on her birth certificate, she had never seen her full birth certificate so didn't even know her mother's name until I ordered a copy. She was brought up in a foster family but never used their name. When she married my husband's father there is a blank space where the Father's name would have been. When she married the second time her foster father is named on the marriage certificate.
I have other certificates where an illegitimate child has a fictitious father named, that was quite common, the same with fictitious fathers named on marriage certificate.
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The topic title is registering a birth in the 1860's so it has to be about Matilda doesn't it ???
If she was born in 1860 then her mother wouldn't be born in the 1860's, yep still confused sorry :-\
Could you clarify please Sasbear which record has the Norton name on it? Thank you
Matilda's birth index entry indicates her parents were married but predates the marriage entry, the original question asked how this was possible and if the parents had to provide proof of marriage when registering a child.
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Have you obtained a copy of the birth cert for Matilda from 1860 yet?
Yes I uploaded it on here yesterday. Internet not great here as camping so not sure if uploaded ok.
Sarah
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The topic title is registering a birth in the 1860's so it has to be about Matilda doesn't it ???
If she was born in 1860 then her mother wouldn't be born in the 1860's, yep still confused sorry :-\
Could you clarify please Sasbear which record has the Norton name on it? Thank you
Matilda is the initial inquiry but her mother Elizabeth 'Guest' is my ultimate quest. I have struggled to find her ancestry line. I have no concrete evidence of her birth, name, but suspect City Road London, I can give more details when I get home from camping.
Thanks for all responses, I really appreciate all information received on this forum.
Sarah
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Sasbear's thread about Joseph GUEST and Elizabeth NORTON might help with some background to the problem.
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=889653.0
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Thank you Sarah.
You may have already investigated this but there is a marriage in 1845 Whitechapel
Joseph Guest Elizabeth Norton
John Norton Guest born 1842 plus a Joseph Thomas Guest born 1847
Wondered if she was the mother of your Elizabeth
There was an 1841 census, can't find it again now, with an Elizabeth plus 2 possible children called Elizabeth & Eliza
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Sasbear's thread about Joseph GUEST and Elizabeth NORTON might help with some background to the problem.
Snap thank you!