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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Surrey => Topic started by: Bosconermal on Sunday 06 April 25 21:06 BST (UK)
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My 2nd GG was Ann Manning and information about her early life has proven elusive. Here's a bit of background:
Census records mostly point to her having been born in Bermondsey in 1817 (1841 and 1861 censuses, 1872 death record) but the 1851 census suggests 1815 and the 1871 suggests 1818. No ages or birthdates on her marriage records.
Ann was married to Reuben Smith from 1834 until his death in an accident in 1857. She remarried in 1860. I know her father's name was Peter from Ann's second marriage record (Peter is deceased) and her sister Elizabeth's only marriage record from 1841 (Peter is alive). That's all I know definitively about her parents, but I have a strong suspicion that they are Peter Manning (1766-1846) and Eleanor Creden (no dates for her, but they married in 1813). They show up in Catholic registers. If they are the parents then they had Ann in Southwark in Feb, 1814 (called "Maria Anna" in a Latin baptismal record), Elizabeth in 1817 and at least one other child (Honora) in-between. No middle name for Ann on the baptismal record.
I just came across admission and discharge workhouse records from 1854 for Ann Eleanor Manning. On the discharge record it says she was admitted at the age of 36 on 16 Oct 1834, discharged on 21 Nov. and was "cholorous" but cured upon discharge. There was a terrible outbreak of cholera in Bermondsey (the "Southwark Slaughter") at that time, which was documented by John Snow. In fact, Ann's 2nd youngest child died of cholera in August 1854 and is mentioned in Snow's study.
Could the workhouse Ann be my Ann? Pros: 1) age is consistent 2) first name is spelled without an "e" 3) cholera was endemic in Bermondsey at the time and I know her daughter died of it that year. Most likely Ann cared for her 4) middle name is Eleanor, which could be for her mother. Cons: 1) she's called Ann "Manning" even though the 1851 census calls her Ann Smith 2) the workhouse record is from Marylebone, not close to Bermondsey. Ann lived her whole life in Bermondsey so far as I know.
The evidence is circumstantial and I think the similarity is probably a coincidence, but maybe they moved infected people away to remove them from the "miasma" the medical profession thought caused cholera. I don't know. Bermondsey was horrendously polluted and smelly. If they are the same person I don't know why she'd call herself Manning, though.
Anyone have any additional thoughts one way or the other?
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Was Peter a witness to Elizabeth’s marriage.
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If you are going from the fact that he is named as her father and it does not say he has died this is not reliable.
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Ancestry London BDM https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1623/
St Mary Newington Kennington Park Road
26 Jan 1834
MANNING Ann
SMITH Reuben
witnesses John ASHBURTON Elizabeth MILLER (X) (all others sign)
St Mary Newington Kennington Park Road
25 Jan 1841
MANNING Elizabeth full age spinster 83 Kent St
father Peter MANNING leather dresser
OSBORNE Thomas bachelor full age labourer 83 Kent St
father John OSBORNE labourer
witnesses J BROWN Ann SMITH (all parties sign)
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Thank you Wivenhoe, but I have this information. If you know more or have suggestions about Ann before she was married or Ann and Elizabeth's parents, that would be really helpful.
My working theory is that the parents are Peter Manning and Eleanor Creden (or Creedon/Creed/Craden/Grad in other sources. It could actually be Creighton for all I know). Ann gave her fourth child the middle name of Eleanor, so maybe after her mother. Peter and Eleanor married at Saint Magnus the Martyr in the City of London on 19 Apr 1813. He was a bachelor and she a widow. Creden is probably her maiden name, but could be the name of her first husband, depending on how you read the Latin in Ann's (Maria Anna's) baptismal record, from St. George's Cathedral in Southwark:
"Die 15 Jan: 1814 nata et die 27 Feb: 1814 baptisata fuit Maria Anna filia Petri Manning & Helena olim Creed, conjugum Sponsores fuerint Petrus Giller & Catharine Certon”
I read olim Creed to mean her original (maiden) name was Creed (or whatever variant). Petri and Helenae are just the Latin genitive forms of Peter and Helen and Helen is surely the cleric's Latinization of Eleanor.
Assuming this is correct then there was a sister Honora born in 1815 and baptized at St. George's (Catholic) cathedral. Elizabeth was born in 1818 and baptized in Bermondsey Dockhead, also Catholic. After that I only have theories about Peter and Eleanor. I assume he is alive at the time of time of Elizabeth's wedding in 1841 and I'm pretty certain he's dead by Ann's second marriage in 1860. There was no legal requirement to indicate whether a father was alive or dead on a marriage record, but it seems unlikely that he would be called "dead" in 1860 if he wasn't. It is possible he was also deceased in 1841 and it wasn't noted. Peter is not a witness to the 1841 wedding. He's not mentioned at all on Ann's marriage record with Reuben Smith in 1834 in St. Mary Newington (C. of E.).
There was a Peter Manning who died at the age of 80 in March 1846 of "natural decay". His wife was named Sarah, so if it's him then Eleanor is probably dead and he's remarried. Divorce was apparently really rare back then and cost a lot. The only plausible record of a Peter Manning in the area with a wife named Sarah is a marriage record between Peter Manning and Sarah Sherricks in Whitechapel in 1843 except that the Sarah Sherricks in Whitechapel in the 1841 census would be ~23 years old and he'd be 77. Not likely.
I don't know anything about Eleanor. A sponsor at Honora's baptism was "Honor Creedon", which should be a clue. There was an Eleanor Manning who died in Walworth, Southwark in July 1843 but her record of death doesn't mention her marital status and the death was witnessed by "Mary Ann Cambridge", not a husband. The record does not say that "Mary Ann Cambridge" is her daughter, which would blow up all my theories, but it's a possibility. This Eleanor was 52 when she died, so born ca. 1791, which would make her 23, 24 and 27 when she had Ann/Mary-Ann, Honora and Elizabeth. If they are indeed her kids. That's reasonable. If Peter was the guy who died in 1846 he'd have been 48, 49 and 52. That'd make for a big age gap with his wife.
There is an Honora Manning who was admitted to the Fulham Road workhouse in 1884, who is described as R.C. (i.e. Catholic). She'd be 70 although the workhouse record suggests she was 66. She was admitted from St. Margaret's parish, which I assume is the one near Westminster Abbey. She apparently didn't marry, so I don't see a record that mentions her parents other than her baptismal record.
So as well as the question from my previous post I have a lot of conjectures. I'd sure appreciate anyone's thoughts on any of this.
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* Ancestry England Census 1841 at Gedling St Bermondsey
SMITH Reuben 30 n(ot born in county)
SMITH Ann 24
SMITH Reuben 6
SMITH Sarah 2
MARSHALL Joseph 30 labourer
HENRY Jesse 26 general dealer (all others here are born in county)
* Ancestry England Census 1851 at 14 Gedling Terrace Bermondsey
SMITH Reuben 46 carman b. Essex
SMITH Ann 36 b. Bermondsey
SMITH Reuben 16 carman "
SMITH Sarah Ann 11 "
SMITH Eliza 9 "
SMITH Thomas H 7 "
SMITH Elizth Cath 4 "
SMITH Emily 3 "
SMITH Charles Henry 8w "
* Ancestry England Census 1851 Winchester St Southwark
OSBORNE Thomas 41 coal dealer b. Gouldhurst Kent
OSBORNE Elizabeth 33 b. Surrey St Johns Southwark
OSBORNE Caroline 11 b. St Saviours Surrey
OSBORNE Elizabeth 8 "
OSBORNE Ann 7 "
OSBORNE Rhoda 3 "
OSBORNE Emily 1 "
MEDHURST William 20 nephew b. St Stephens nr Canterbury Kent
* Ancestry London BDM St James Church Bermondsey Jamaica Rd Southwark 1 Oct 1860
SMITH Ann full age widow Gedling Terrace
father Peter MANNING deceased
RUSH William full age bachelor labourer Gedling Terrace
father William RUSH labourer
witnesses William RUSH snr Sarah Ann SMITH all parties sign
* Ancestry London BDM St James Church Bermondsey Jamaica Rd Southwark 13 May 1866
HARRIS Jonathan full age bachelor carman Gedling St
father James HARRIS deceased
SMITH Sarah Ann full age spinster "
father Reuben SMITH deceased
witnesses Ann OSBORNE William RUSH (X) (all others sign)
* Christ Church Bermondsey 24 Sep 1876
MURRAY Robert full age widower porter 47 Gedling St
father William MURRAY coachmaker
SMITH Eliza full age widow "
father Reuben SMITH carman
witnesses William BROUGHAM all parties sign
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There was a burial for a Peter Manning 13 May 1835 age 45 (bn c1790) at St Mary, Bermondsey - Residence - Workhouse :-\
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Honora Manning was born 16 Sep 1815, baptised 20 Sep 1815, parents Peter and Helenae (sic) at Southwark, St George's Cathedral
and Patricius Manning was born 03 Oct 1815, baptised 15 Oct 1815, parents Peter and Eleonore at Moorfields, St Mary Moorfields.
So looks like two couples where the wives have similar names
???
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Joannes Manning born 11 Dec 1825, Baptism date 31 Dec 1825, parent Peter and Eleonore, Mother's last name Creadon
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Joannes Manning born 11 Dec 1825, Baptism date 31 Dec 1825, parent Peter and Eleonore, Mother's last name Creadon
Is there a Thomas in 1821 as well? :-\
At Bermondsey Dockhead, Most Holy Trinity
Father indexed as Patrick
Mother Ellen Creeden
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Yes Thomas is there
born 23 Nov 1821,
Baptism date 25 Dec 1821
Peter and Ellen nee Creeden
modified, just checked image, father recorded as Patrick
sponsors William Cashman and Hannah Creeden
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There was a Peter Manning who died at the age of 80 in March 1846 of "natural decay". His wife was named Sarah, so if it's him then Eleanor is probably dead and he's remarried. Divorce was apparently really rare back then and cost a lot. The only plausible record of a Peter Manning in the area with a wife named Sarah is a marriage record between Peter Manning and Sarah Sherricks in Whitechapel in 1843 except that the Sarah Sherricks in Whitechapel in the 1841 census would be ~23 years old and he'd be 77. Not likely.
That marriage in 1843 was between Peter Manning and Ann Pitcher. Sarah Sherricks married John Dunnage
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I don't know anything about Eleanor. A sponsor at Honora's baptism was "Honor Creedon", which should be a clue. There was an Eleanor Manning who died in Walworth, Southwark in July 1843 but her record of death doesn't mention her marital status and the death was witnessed by "Mary Ann Cambridge", not a husband. The record does not say that "Mary Ann Cambridge" is her daughter, which would blow up all my theories, but it's a possibility. This Eleanor was 52 when she died, so born ca. 1791, which would make her 23, 24 and 27 when she had Ann/Mary-Ann, Honora and Elizabeth. If they are indeed her kids.
Does it give an address for Mary Ann Cambridge
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Yes Thomas is there
born 23 Nov 1821,
Baptism date 25 Dec 1821
Peter and Ellen nee Creeden
modified, just checked image, father recorded as Patrick
sponsors William Cashman and Hannah Creeden
Honora Creedon married William Cashman in 1820 at camberwell. Just a transcript on FindMyPast, no marriage date given only year
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Yes Thomas is there
born 23 Nov 1821,
Baptism date 25 Dec 1821
Peter and Ellen nee Creeden
modified, just checked image, father recorded as Patrick
sponsors William Cashman and Hannah Creeden
Honora Creedon married William Cashman in 1820 at camberwell. Just a transcript on FindMyPast, no marriage date given only year
Found image on Ancestry, Peter Manning was a witness
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Wow, thank you everyone!
1) I have Sarah Sherricks as the wife of Peter Manning in my notes but remember having a problem with that apart from the age gap. I'll look at that one again. Of course, I don't know if this Peter is my Peter. I don't remember having come across the Peter Manning who died in 1835.
2) Wivenhoe: thanks for the 1851 list, which I did have. Reuben and Ann had two more children after that: Caroline (1852-1854), who died of cholera and was included in John Snow's study; and Harriett (1856-1934) who emigrated to Canada and was my ggmother.
The rest I haven't had a chance to absorb and won't until a little later. I'll get back to you if only to say thank you again.
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1872 death record
Is this her burial at the City of London Cemetery?
18 Aug 1872
Ann Rush
43 Gidling Street Dockhead
Age 55 years
https://col-burialregisters.uk/archive/burial-registers-january-1870-to-december-1879/register-021/1070351
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It is! I didn't have that. I have her death of tetanus on 13 Aug. but not her burial. This is a score! Thank you so much.
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Mary Ann Cambridge
Present at the Death
14 Mason Street
Old Kent Road
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Mary Ann Cambridge
Present at the Death
14 Mason Street
Old Kent Road
I wonder if it should be Mary Ann Hambridge. She can be found in Mason Street in 1841 age 45 not bn in County with a possible husband James. H0107/Piece 1085/bk8/f28/p6
Yes it is her ;D
They are at 14 Mason Street in 1851
James Hambridge age 56 bn Yeovil, Somerset
Mary A Hambridge age 55 bn Bromsgrove, Worcestershire
HO107
Piece 1563
Folio 479
Page 34
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Possible marriage for the Hambridges, they were both widowed. 30 January 1837 at Lambeth, James Hambridge and Mary Ann Jones, one of the witnesses was an Eliza James, the other a church official
Informants at death do not have to be related, they can be a neighbour or friend :-\
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In 1841 in Surrey Square, Walworth, there is an Ellen Manning, 45 (age possibly rounded down), Not born county.
A Female Servant, one of three living in the house of Henry Bevington, Leather Tanner.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQKM-VV2
Perhaps she could be the lady who died in Walworth in 1843 :-\
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LizzieL and jonwarrn: Where are you finding these entries for Thomas, Joannes and Patricius? In FindMyPast I can see a Thomas who is born in 1815, died on 22 Dec 1816 and was buried in Spitalfields Burial Ground. That's in Tower Hamlets on the other side of the Thames and you'd think if they lived in Southwark they'd bury him there. Not necessarily, but you'd think so. The information is from a burial index that doesn't give his parents' names. You have a specific birth/baptism date. There is a practice of giving child the name of a predeceased sibling, so another Thomas in 1821 could be
I knew about Honora, but not about the Patricius born a few weeks later. Both baptized in Catholic churches. That's a head-scratcher. Patricius is baptized in St. Mary Moorfields in the City, whereas Ann, Honora, Elizabeth and Thomas were baptized in Southwark. Mind you, Peter and Eleanor were apparently married in St. Magnus the Martyr in the City.
Amazing sleuthing. Now I wonder where Peter and Eleanor came from!
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there was a sister Honora born in 1815 and baptized at St. George's (Catholic) cathedral.
Are you sure that this is the same Honora you found much later?
Could Honora actually be your Ann? :-\
I have a feeling we have occasionally seen Hannahs and maybe Anns baptized as Honora in catholic records before, but I may be wrong about that.
The names Hannah and Ann sometimes interchangeable?