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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Free Photo Restoration & Date Old Photographs => Topic started by: Galium on Saturday 29 March 25 11:46 GMT (UK)
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Can anyone help with understanding the meaning of the flags shown flying from the ship in this picture? (It's a 19thC painting owned by a family member.)
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https://www.allstarflags.com/facts/signal-code-flags/?srsltid=AfmBOoraJA5QgpVcYhOoL8lMmAgYv_48ACsEsf2N_brwPC7tx8cI3gtr
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Thank you, martin hooper. My apologies, because I should have explained a bit better than I did.
I know that the flags can stand for letters of the alphabet - so from the top down it would read P - M - ? - W
The red pennant doesn't seem to correspond to anything on any chart I have seen.
As it is a painting, possibly commissioned by the ship owner I'm guessing that the flags are intended to say something about that rather than sending a message - which for the first two flags would be: "all personnel return to ship"; "my vessel is stopped, making no way", and for the last "medical assistance required". Which would be a bit odd to put in a painting meant to show off your lovely ship.
I was wondering whether the flags represented the owner/owners' name/s. (The ship's name is 'Chilena')
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I think you need to refer to the Commercial Code flags in use 1857-1900, rather then the International Code of Signals which came into effect in 1901.
On that basis the flags were P, M, F, W.
See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Code_of_Signals where there is a chart of flags.
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According to this image:
https://c8.alamy.com/comp/J829MP/19th-century-illustration-signal-flags-pilot-flags-flag-signals-J829MP.jpg (https://c8.alamy.com/comp/J829MP/19th-century-illustration-signal-flags-pilot-flags-flag-signals-J829MP.jpg)
The pennant could be an “F”. But the lower part of the image indicates that combinations have specific meanings.
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Reading an article on the Commercial Code, I saw this:
Four-flag combinations with B (red burgee) uppermost were geographical signals; with the pendants C, D, or F uppermost they were vocabulary (phrases, words or spelled-out words) signals; with G uppermost they identified warships; and with any square flag uppermost they identified merchant vessels.
https://tmg110.tripod.com/sigf_2.htm
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Thank you KGarrad and AlanBoyd. That is most helpful. So it has an identification purpose.
I have just found this list:
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tqk/
which shows that the Chilena built in 1876 had the code P M F W. Which is useful in distinguishing it from an earlier ship of the same name.
(But doesn't yet explain why the picture has been passed down in my family. That line were mariners, but I haven't found any of them crewing the Chilena at any time.)
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The launch it seems? ...
Sunderland Daily Echo, 11th April 1876
Ship Launch on the Wear. —The barque Chilena was launched from the yard of Messrs. Doxford and Sons, Pallion, on Saturday. She is the property of Messrs. Tomlinson, Hodgetts, and Company, of Liverpool. The vessel is 180 feet long, 30 feet broad, and 19 feet in depth, and is a very fine specimen of marine architecture. As she left the ways the usual ceremony of christening was performed by Miss Margaret Eveline Doxford, daughter of Mr William Theodore Doxford. The vessel made a splendid launch, in the presence of the builders, and also of Captain Davis, who is to take the command of the ship, which he inspected in the course of construction. This is the second ship built by Messrs. Doxford and Sons, for the same firm, and is intended for the West Coast trade.
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Added: See the 1893 Obituary Notice found by Rootschatter Hanes (top of p.2) re Captain James Davies.
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1st appearance in Lloyds Register.
https://archive.org/details/HECROS1877/page/n247/mode/2up
You can track it here in subsequent years (click on year of interest) -
https://www.maritimearchives.co.uk/lloyds-register.html
Also, cannot beat online newspapers to track activity
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Death of Captain Davies -
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3313539/3313547/51/chilena
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Good find Hanes.
Further to the launch of the Chilena in Reply # 7.
1888
There was also another vessel built at Liverpool in 1854, called Chilena and being offered for sale in 1888. Now lying in King's Dock, Liverpool.
For price, inventory, and further particulars
Wm Nicol & Co., 18 James Street, Liverpool ; or Sanders, Stevens, & Co., Exchange, Plymouth.
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Chilena of Liverpool, British Ship.
The Shields Daily News, 11th May 1881
ALLEGED MURDER ON BOARD A LIVERPOOL SHIP.
On Friday the English barque Chilena, of Liverpool, arrived at Falmouth from San Francisco for orders, which she received in the afternoon to proceed to Fleetwood. Just as she was about to sail, the harbour police acting on instructions which they had received from the Board of Trade, went aboard the Chilena and brought ashore the Mate, John Johns, charged with causing the death of Edward Jensen, one of the crew, when on the voyage from Valparaiso to San Francisco. Johns was brought before the Mayor in the evening and remanded, bail being accepted. On Saturday, Johns appeared before the Falmouth Magistrates. From the evidence taken it appeared that as the deceased did not muster with his watch at four a.m. on the 13th December, the mate Johns went in search of him, and after fetching him the deceased was insolent to the mate, and struck him. Mr Johns then struck deceased, knocking him down. ... but died four days subsequently. The Bench told the mate he might go on board the ship again, and, addressing those in court, said it was not a case of prosecution, but one of investigation.
ADDED:
Also in the Western Morning News, 9th May 1881 which named the deceased as Edward Jansen, an Able Seaman, of the Chilena of Liverpool, a British ship. Died four days later and was buried at Sea.
Those who gave accounts were:-
Captain Davies, Master of the Chilena.
Mate, John Johns, (also mentioned once as Chief Officer).
Evan Jones and "another Seaman".
Thomas Jackson, an Apprentice.
Added:
It appeared the date in this newspaper was given as 17th November at 4 a.m. [1880]
Four others who were present had since deserted.
The evidence taken in Court was to be sent to London and Mr Johns could go back on board and proceed with the ship to Fleetwood.
Added:
Some newspapers call the Mate, John Jones.
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Death of Captain Davies -
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3313539/3313547/51/chilena
Another newspaper:-
The Aberystwyth Observer and Merionethshire News, 6th July 1893, regarding the death of Captain James Davies, New Street, Master of the Chilena, of Liverpool, also adds that the Chief Officer of the Chilena is Capt. Edward Humphreys, Marine Terrace.
Added:
Montgomery County Times and Shropshire and Mid-Wales Advertiser, 24th February 1900
The death took place on Friday morning week of Mrs Davies, New Street. Deceased was the widow of Captain James Davies, of the barque "Chilena" and daughter of the late Captain Thomas Jones, Laura Place. She was a lifelong and faithful member of St Paul's Wesleyan Chapel. She leaves two children- a son and daughter. The funeral which was private, took place on Tuesday morning. ...
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The Welsh Gazette, 24th July 1919
Reports the information about and Inquest (nearly one full column) of Captain Edward Hughes Humphreys, St Michael's Place and goes on to say that he had previously been chief officer and master of the barque "Chilena."
Captain Humphreys married Eleanor, only daughter of the late Captain William Owen, shipowner, of Aberystwyth, ... He was a brother of the late Captain Humphreys, harbour master, and his only surviving sister is Mrs Hughes, of London.
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The Liverpool Shipping Telegraph and Daily Commercial Advertiser, 20th August 1896
HUGHES'S SALES.
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Messrs. Hughes will Sell by Auction THIS DAY (Thursday), 20th August, at One o'clock (gun time), at the Saleroom, Exchange-buildings, Liverpool (unless previously disposed of by private treaty).
Eight Sixty-Fourth SHARES in the Iron Barque
CHILENA,
707 tons gross and 649 tons net register. Length, 181 feet ; breadth, 29.9 feet ; depth, 19.2 feet. Built at Sunderland by Messrs. Wm Doxford & Sons in 1876, and classed 100 A1 at Lloyd's. Passed No. 1 survey in 1893, and had part new decks in 1894. She is under the management of Messrs. Tomlinson, Hodgetts & Co., Liverpool.—Apply to
JOHN HUGHES & CO.,
Shipping Salesmen, Auctioneers, and Valuers,
Tower-buildings, Liverpool.
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Thank you so much, BushInn1746 and hanes teulu! Something to keep me busy for a while. It doesn't immediately look as though anyone in my family was master of the Chilena - their name was Thomas - although several of them were master mariners from Aberystwyth.
I wonder whether someone among them owned shares in it at some point, as that at least seems a possibility, going by the auction advertised in the piece BushInn1746 found. My Ggrandmother apparently had said that they owned the ship in the painting, but then she was known for not letting a good story be spoiled by the facts.
Interesting to learn that it was an iron ship; for no good reason I had always assumed that it was timber.
At present, I don't know that either Captain James Davies or Captain Edward Humphreys are relatives, but of course they might turn out to be.
Many thanks, your good work is very much appreciated.
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I'm poking my noise into this thread as I was slightly dismayed that the Red Duster/Red Ensign flag hasn't been mentioned.
I was born and raised in a Port and duinrg my childhood learned morse and semaphore plus a few of the flags that ships could display.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ensign
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Code_of_Signals
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The Aberystwyth Observer, and Merionethshire News, Saturday, 23rd September 1876
On the 19th inst., aged 77 years, Mrs Mary Thomas, widow of the late Captain John Thomas, master mariner of this port.
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The Aberystwyth Observer, and Merionethshire News, Saturday, 16th September 1882
Shipping
Arrivals
Tuesday, 12th, Duke, Thomas master, from Pwllheli, herrings.
Departures
Wednesday, 13th, Duke, Thomas master, for Pwllheli, ballast.
This vessel was the Duke, if anything like those Muster Rolls seen in the past, at Hull, some Masters' often changed vessels.
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Also a David Thomas, Master of the Workhouse, 1876.
David Thomas, master of the Aberystwyth workhouse, 1880.
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The Aberystwyth Observer, and Merionethshire News, 26th February 1870
Merchant Seaman's Orphan Asylum.
To the Editor of the Aberystwyth Observer.
... The Writer has no connection whatsoever with the little boy, but took the task in hand at considerable expense and labour, merely from sympathy with the widow and four fatherless children. The father was William Thomas, master of the pew schooner Ida, of this port, which was lost, with all her crew, as well as himself, in the month of January, 1862, leaving a widow, with four young children, wholly unprovided for.
It seems the boy was Walter Thomas?
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I'm poking my noise into this thread as I was slightly dismayed that the Red Duster/Red Ensign flag hasn't been mentioned.
By all means shout out for the Red Duster :). The only reason I didn't mention it was that I knew that my Welsh family were merchant mariners, and I learned about the Red Ensign from a Blue Peter annual I had as a child. Rather fitting really, seeing that the topmost flag in the picture is a Blue Peter .
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thank you BushInn1746. It is a long business deciding which William, John or Thomas Thomas belongs to which family in Aberystwyth, especially as they tend to be a bit vague about ages in census records (if they show up at all, often being away at sea) and I don't think I have sorted them all out yet!