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Old Photographs, Recognition, Handwriting Deciphering => Handwriting Deciphering & Recognition => Topic started by: JLo on Thursday 27 March 25 15:38 GMT (UK)
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I think I have asked this before (many years ago) but have made very little progress since, so thought I'd give it another go! I am trying to decipher the birthplace of the fifth line down - Morris Loewenthal. On the 1871 census, his birth place is given as Prussia Berlin, but this definitely says something else, and I can't work out what. I can't even decide if the first word says Russia or Prussia!
Unfortunately, he died in 1880, and there is no sign of him in 1851, so these are the only two censuses I have. New inspiration is needed for this very solid brick wall.
Thanks x
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I'd say it's definitely Russia (compare the first letter with the name of the street, Ryden, especially n° 10), but can't be much help with the name of the town/province or whatever it is.
Many entries gives the county then a town, but I know nothing much about Russia in the nineteenth century I'm afraid.
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First thought was Russia also.
Any idea when he came to this country?
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First thought was Russia also.
Any idea when he came to this country?
All I know is that he was here by 1860. He was married in the synagogue in London in November 1860. I have a possible immigration record in April 1859, but can't be sure it is him.
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Where did the person on the immigration record come from?
Was his wife Russian also or English?
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Linash seems to get some connection with Russia. I don't know why though :)
I'd have said Flinash but what is the scroll like a bracket before the f ?
I think his wife is 'Manchester'
Visitor possibly Liverpool
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Do you have his 1860 marriage record which should name his father. Remember that Morris could lso be Moritz or Moishe.
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Could it be Russia Environs, as in 1831 Russia was known as Russian Empire or Imperial Russia?
Or Prussia Kingdom?
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Do you have his 1860 marriage record which should name his father. Remember that Morris could lso be Moritz or Moishe.
A family tree on Ancestry says Maurice Samuel Loewenthal.
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Linash seems to get some connection with Russia. I don't know why though :)
I'd have said Flinash but what is the scroll like a bracket before the f ?
I think his wife is 'Manchester'
Visitor possibly Liverpool
I suspect the letter at start is an S with some of it too faint or missing....Guess...Shi(e)rashovo
Look at the S's beginning the occupations.
This is an AI overview. I don't normally like these. Do you think it's right ?
In 19th-century Russia, the term "Shirash" likely refers to the Circassian genocide, a period of forced displacement and ethnic cleansing of Circassians and other groups from the North Caucasus, resulting in mass emigration to the Ottoman Empire.
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On second thought, I think it's Prussia. Look at his P on Morris's occupaton - Pocket Book Maker - and that would be Prussia Berlin, there's definitely an "i" in the second word.
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Do you have his 1860 marriage record which should name his father. Remember that Morris could lso be Moritz or Moishe.
I do have marriage records. On his English marriage certificate his fathers name is Lisseman/Lifeman/Lipman (deceased). On his ketubbah (Jewish certificate) his father's Jewish name is Eliezer. His ketubbah also says he has no brothers.
His name has many variations! Marcus Samuel/Maurice/Morris/Morice or Moses and his Jewish name is Mordechai.
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Linash seems to get some connection with Russia. I don't know why though :)
I'd have said Flinash but what is the scroll like a bracket before the f ?
I think his wife is 'Manchester'
Visitor possibly Liverpool
I suspect the letter at start is an S with some of it too faint or missing....Guess...Shi(e)rashovo
Look at the S's beginning the occupations.
This is an AI overview. I don't normally like these. Do you think it's right ?
In 19th-century Russia, the term "Shirash" likely refers to the Circassian genocide, a period of forced displacement and ethnic cleansing of Circassians and other groups from the North Caucasus, resulting in mass emigration to the Ottoman Empire.
That's an interesting thought, particularly as he was Jewish.
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Not that it helps, but I think the unknown word begins with T. Compare it with the flourish on Thomas Eames near the bottom of the page.
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<<Not that it helps, but I think the unknown word begins with T. Compare it with the flourish on Thomas Eames near the bottom of the page.>>
I would agree that the letter at the start of the town/province is a T - identical to the T of Thomas - I searched for ages for a comparison but didn't spot that !
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Not that it helps, but I think the unknown word begins with T. Compare it with the flourish on Thomas Eames near the bottom of the page.
But the person with the surname Eames at the bottom of the page is female. Looking at the 1851 census for the same family her name is Frances.
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<<But the person with the surname Eames at the bottom of the page is female. Looking at the 1851 census for the same family her name is Frances.>>
Oh dear, more haste, less speed, sorry... I saw Frances at first but then decided the 'Daur' wasn't the same as the ones above...I see now there is a a very faint curve to the D - and it doesn't look much like Son written way above.
So the initial letter of the unknown word is probably F.
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Thanks JenB, I was desperately trying to come up with a place in Somerset beginning with a T to match the birthplace of the lady next door to the subject (Maria Pritchett?), but F would make it Frome, so I’m convinced that the letter with the flourish is indeed an F.
What terrible handwriting it is (although I’ve seen worse in census returns).
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=48374.msg191606#msg191606
Previous thread, same topic.
Opinions were divided there as to whether is was Russia or Prussia, but the feeling was that the second word could well begin with the letter 'F'.
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DELETED. Yes I give up.
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This is the person's handwriting for Frederick... and Morris's place of birth... Freisack?
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You've all ignored the fact that there is another starting letter, after Russia and before what I think is a capital H. It has faded away except for the curve of an S as illustrated many times on the page .
Why ?
I think the starting letter you refer to is is in fact an extravagant loop, part of the starting capital, which I think might be 'F'. The top of the loop is incomplete which is why it looks a bit like another letter.
As examples here is the mystery word followed by two examples of names beginning 'F' from the same page.
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Thank you JenB. Yes, i'll go along with that.
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Thank you. That is really helpful to compare to Frederick and Frances and it does seem to begin with Fr. Friesack is a place in (present-day) Germany not that far away from Berlin. I thought the 1871 census saying Berlin was like saying you come from London when you are in the Home Counties. Will dig a bit at Friesack and see if that takes me anywhere!
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https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=48374.msg191606#msg191606
Previous thread, same topic.
Opinions were divided there as to whether is was Russia or Prussia, but the feeling was that the second word could well begin with the letter 'F'.
Time flies when you're stuck at a brick wall. 20 years ago!!! I came to Friesack at the end then, I hope there is more available now than there was then.
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One very similar family living in Islington in 1881, husband from Germany -Edward Lowenthal- and wife from Manchester. Can't see his occupation on FamilySearch, but you could check it on Ancestry or FindMyPast.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q279-2B64
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Button manufacturer
He is on an alien arrivals list. Lodger in 1871 from Kingdom of Hanover
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An interesting spot but I think that one is a red herring. Loewenthal is a relatively common name in Germany and Morris's wife Elizabeth was born in Manchester but had moved away by 1841. I wonder if they knew each other...
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I suppose you have already checked Ancestry's All England, Alien Arrivals, 1826-1869? I don't have a subscription, but i can see a M. Loewenthal arriving in London.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1587/?name=_löwenthal&arrival=1859&arrival_x=2-0-0&name_x=i
And this family tree?
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Have you checked his business partner?
"Henry Pallash and Morris Loewenthal, Aldermanbury. manufacturers of leather goods"
Published: Wednesday 17 January 1866
Newspaper: Globe
County: London, England
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I suppose you have already checked Ancestry's All England, Alien Arrivals, 1826-1869? I don't have a subscription, but i can see a M. Loewenthal arriving in London.
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/search/collections/1587/?name=_löwenthal&arrival=1859&arrival_x=2-0-0&name_x=i
And this family tree?
Yes that is the possible arrival I have in 1859 from Prussia. No way of proving that it is him though and the profession is completely unreadable (worse than the 1861 census!)
The family tree is his wife Elizabeth's (her mother's maiden name was Cohen) and does not have anything significant on him.
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Have you checked his business partner?
"Henry Pallash and Morris Loewenthal, Aldermanbury. manufacturers of leather goods"
Published: Wednesday 17 January 1866
Newspaper: Globe
County: London, England
I have looked at him in the past, but without knowing his age it is tricky to know for sure whether you have the right one. The most likely one I found comes from Prussia/Poland
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Thanks for replying. Could you post the picture of his occupation? Maybe someone here could decipher it?
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He's right at the bottom of the page. His native country says Preuben (Prussia) but I have no clue what the occupation says or even if it's the right M. Loewenthal!
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Thanks! It looks like "Taylor" or "Saylor" (see above, different handwriting). Old spelling or the person who wrote it was German.
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Following on from PatLac's post there is a Certificate of Arrival on 3 November 1857 for a Moritz Loewenthal arriving in Dover from Germany via Calais. Doesn't specify where in Germany he came from, just that he had a German Passport. Moritz is, of course, German for Maurice or Morris.
Have you looked for any Naturalisation Papers?
Link for those who have access to Ancestry:
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tql/ (https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tql/)
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Following on from PatLac's post there is a Certificate of Arrival on 3 November 1857 for a Moritz Loewenthal arriving in Dover from Germany via Calais. Doesn't specify where in Germany he came from, just that he had a German Passport. Moritz is, of course, German for Maurice or Morris.
Have you looked for any Naturalisation Papers?
Link for those who have access to Ancestry:
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tql/ (https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tql/)
I have looked for naturalisation papers. I did find a Moses Loewenthal and got very excited (!) but it wasn't him. This arrival is quite interesting, particularly as it has a signature. The only other signature I have is this one. It is similar but does not have the squiggle at the end, but goes back and crosses over the 't' so I don't think it's the same person. What do you think?
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This is the signature on the arrivals doc
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I thought I read "bag maker" and then I saw the transcript "pocket book maker", but it seems that he was a bag manufacturer after all.
ADJUDICATIONS IN BANKRUPTCY
... — J. H. Dewar, M. Loewenthal, and J. Jordan, Farringdon-road, bag manufacturers ; so far as concerns M. Lowenthal— ...
Published: Wednesday 20 September 1871
Newspaper: Morning Post
County: London, England
If A. E. Loewenthal was his son Albert Edward Loewental (1868-1939), maybe this newspaper article can shed a light on his origins? (I don't have a britishnewspaperarchive subscription)
PERSONAL
... A. E. Lowenthal, the presiding genius of the Leatheries, Ltd., Henstead Street, Birmingham, has been connected with the leather trade ...
Published: Saturday 11 May 1901
Newspaper: Cycling
County: London, England
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The LOWENTHAL Anatomical Saddle. Perfect in Design, Workmanship
... PRICE 16/6 1 I DROP A LINE FOR CATALOGUE. SEE OUR Special '97 Saddles, Gear Cases, & Trouser Clips. The Leatheries, Ltd., Cregoe Street, Birmingham. ...
Published: Saturday 16 January 1897
Newspaper: Cycling
County: London, England
Henstead St., Bromsgrove St., BIRMINGHAM, sth March, 1904. Cycling, We are very pleased with the result of our ..
... take this opportunity of testifying to the value of an advertisement in your paper. We are, Yours faithfully, For The Leatheries, Ltd., ALBERT E. LOWENTHAL, Man. Dir ...
Published: Wednesday 23 March 1904
Newspaper: Cycling
County: London, England
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His other son, Gustave Joseph Loewenthal (1879-1941).
Motor cycle
Publication date 1903
Topics Motorcycles, Motorcycle racing
Publisher London : 'The Motor Cycle'
Benevolent Fund Concert.
The twelfth Bohemian concert of the
Cycle and Motor Trades Benevolent Fund
in connection with the Birmingham Centre
will be held at the Temperance Hall,
Temple Street. Birmingham, on Friday,
February 4th. Tickets are obtainable from
Mr. G. J. Lowenthal, The Leatheries,
Sampson Road North, Sparkbrook, and
Mr. A. Hickstepp, 10a; Temple Row.
Birmingham.
https://archive.org/details/motorcycle26lond_/page/n133/mode/2up?q=lowenthal
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If this is his other son, Henry Samuel Loewenthal (1872-1925), does Wurzburg ring a bell?
THE WIFE'S SISTER BILL, THE EDITOR
... OF LONDON.—The following candidates have passed in Surgery :—T. S. Biggs, Guy's ; F. L. Blenkinsop, University Coll. ; H. S. Loewenthal,Wurzburg, C. A. Marrett, Charingcross Hospital ; J. P. Herne, Bellevue, New York...
Published: Monday 25 June 1894
Newspaper: Evening Mail
County: London, England
Were the Loewenthal Ashkenazi jews? From Wikipedia:
"The Hep-Hep riots from August to October 1819 were pogroms against Ashkenazi Jews, beginning in the Kingdom of Bavaria, during the period of Jewish emancipation in the German Confederation. The antisemitic communal violence began on August 2, 1819, in Würzburg and soon reached the outer regions of the German Confederation. Many Jews were killed, and much Jewish property was destroyed."
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I think Henry Samuel was a tobacconist manager, according to the 1901 Census, so maybe he's not the surgeon from the newspaper article.
If that's the case I suppose this is his mother?
London Trade's Directory
page 1913 TRADES' DIRECTORY, 1882. TOB[acconists]
Loewenthal Mrs. Elizabeth, 116 London rdS E
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One Löwenthal family of Friesack:
"Der Vater des Kindes, Abraham Löwenthal ist am 17t.April 1816 als Sohn des Liebmann Löwenthal und der Jette Samuel in Friesack geboren. (BLHA Rep.8 Friesack 2005) Er findet sich auch in den Listen der Wahlberechtigten zur Repräsentantenwahl für die Jahre 1860 / 1861 und wird dort als Kaufmann angegeben. Danach gibt es keinen weiteren Nachweis von ihm.
Aus der Familie Löwenthal stammt auch der Maler des Familienbildes der Salomons, welches um 1845 entstand. Dabei dürfte es sich um Samuel Löwenthal (3.11.1825 – 5.10.1900) handeln, welcher als Zeichenlehrer an der Berliner Knabenschule der jüdischen Gemeinde tätig war."
https://quitzow-kurier.de/Friedhof.htm
Google translation:
The child's father, Abraham Löwenthal, was born on April 17, 1816, the son of Liebmann Löwenthal and Jette Samuel in Friesack. (BLHA Rep. 8 Friesack 2005) He also appears on the lists of eligible voters for the representative elections for the years 1860/1861 and is listed there as a merchant. There is no further evidence of him after that.
The painter of the Salomons' family portrait, created around 1845, also comes from the Löwenthal family. He is likely Samuel Löwenthal (November 3, 1825 – October 5, 1900), who worked as an art teacher at the Berlin boys' school of the Jewish community.
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One Löwenthal family of Friesack:
"Der Vater des Kindes, Abraham Löwenthal ist am 17t.April 1816 als Sohn des Liebmann Löwenthal und der Jette Samuel in Friesack geboren. (BLHA Rep.8 Friesack 2005) Er findet sich auch in den Listen der Wahlberechtigten zur Repräsentantenwahl für die Jahre 1860 / 1861 und wird dort als Kaufmann angegeben. Danach gibt es keinen weiteren Nachweis von ihm.
Aus der Familie Löwenthal stammt auch der Maler des Familienbildes der Salomons, welches um 1845 entstand. Dabei dürfte es sich um Samuel Löwenthal (3.11.1825 – 5.10.1900) handeln, welcher als Zeichenlehrer an der Berliner Knabenschule der jüdischen Gemeinde tätig war."
https://quitzow-kurier.de/Friedhof.htm
Google translation:
The child's father, Abraham Löwenthal, was born on April 17, 1816, the son of Liebmann Löwenthal and Jette Samuel in Friesack. (BLHA Rep. 8 Friesack 2005) He also appears on the lists of eligible voters for the representative elections for the years 1860/1861 and is listed there as a merchant. There is no further evidence of him after that.
The painter of the Salomons' family portrait, created around 1845, also comes from the Löwenthal family. He is likely Samuel Löwenthal (November 3, 1825 – October 5, 1900), who worked as an art teacher at the Berlin boys' school of the Jewish community.
This is quite an interesting family and is a good possibility for my family. I had a good look at BLHA Rep. 8 Friesack 2005 and Liebmann Lowenthal seems to be a haberdasher/textiles merchant who had 5 children up to the year 1820. I will have to have a look and see if I can find anything else about this family. It would be really good to find if they had anymore children after 1820.
Goodness knows where you found this, but thank you!
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You're welcome and good luck!
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how exciting ! Well done PatLac.
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Thanks jimbo50, glad to help.
I wonder if the mother's name is of any interest? Her name appears as Jette Samuel, but the last birth record for Jette Löwenthal (1820) shows mother's name Jette Samuel Marcus.
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The mother's name is what piqued my interest - 'My' Morris Lowenthal has also been known as Marcus Samuel Lowenthal at some points. I have always thought that that was his actual official name.
I have had a busy few hours studying German documents (with the help of Google Translate as sadly my German is non-existent), I may be on a wild goose chase but I haven't lost hope! This is what I have so far:
In 1821 in Friesack there is Liebmann Abraham Lowenthal b 15/5/1781 (possibly in Syndow) with his wife Jette Samuel Marcus b 10/04/1784. They married on 24 Feb 1813
Their children are:
Rickel/Rieckel (female) b 21/08/1811
Hanne/Hanehin (female) b 12/08/1813
Abraham b 17/08/1816
Amalie/Amalia (female) b 18/08/1818
Jette (female) b 14/03/1820
They were described as "Mosaic Jews"
In 1834 they are listed as a family of 7 with Liebmann listed as the head of household. He is described as poor and being supported by his relatives and the Jewish community.
The fact that there are 7 of them could mean that they had no more children after 1820 or it could be that some of the older ones have left home... (obviously I'm hoping the latter!!) 'My' Morris was born circa 1831 which would make Jette (the possible mother) in her late 40s. Hmmm...
My brain is now addled from looking at lots of German. I will follow up on the newspaper article on A E Lowenthal and The Leatheries tomorrow to try things from a different angle. That is definitely on safer ground, as I know they are 'mine' and it is all in English!
Thanks again for your help PatLac
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Thanks for sharing your findings, really interesting!
His death certificate has name Marcus Samuel Loewenthal, so it makes sense that this was his 'official' name. It's certainly an amazing coincidence if this is not his family.
There's a possible husband for Amalia Löwenthal, Nathan Grünsberg. One of their sons could have been Max who emigrated to the US as Max Greensberg.
"New York, New York City Marriage Records, 1829-1938"
Name Max Greenberg
Sex Male
Age 28 years
Birth Year (Estimated) 1850
Father's Name Nathan
Father's Sex Male
Mother's Name Amalia Lowenthal
Mother's Sex Female
Spouse's Name Debora Katz
Spouse's Sex Female
Spouse's Age 21 years
Spouse's Birth Year (Estimated) 1857
Spouse's Father's Name Aaron
Spouse's Father's Sex Male
Spouse's Mother's Name Sarah Schuff
Event Type Marriage
Event Date 10 November 1878
Event Place Manhattan, New York City, New York, United States
Source Details 109