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General => Ancestral Family Tree DNA Testing => Topic started by: ggrocott on Sunday 23 March 25 20:34 GMT (UK)
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I have a DNA link to a descendant of Bessie Jane Chapman born 1912 Islington, daughter of Lizzie Soan and Alfred Chapman born 1886 Islington (1921 Census) and GRO birth reg.
Alfred is shown as Alfred William Chapman s/o John Chapman (fruiterer) on the wedding record in 1886 but the only likely birth regs I have found are Alfred James Chapman mmn Wilkinson 1886 Islington and Alfred Chapman mmn Grimes 1884 Stepney.
John Chapman (greengrocer) s/o John Chapman (greengrocer) married Charlotte Wilkinson in 1878 so I am guessing Alfred William Chapman is the correct one. John Chapman (porter) s/o John Chapman (stoker) married Charlotte Grimes 1875.
This of course makes it tricky to work out who is who in the various census but I think I have worked it out using the various siblings.
Now comes the bit where I start struggling. In 1871 there is a record for John Chapman a greengrocer born 1821 Haddenham, son John Chapman born 1858 Islington, wife Caroline. In 1861 there is a John Chapman born 1821 Haddenham, a builder's labourer, wife Caroline born 1828 Haddenham, son John born 1858 and mother in law Dinah Fletcher. I assume these are the same man. John Chapman, s/o William Chapman, married Caroline Fletcher (transcribed as Flatcher) in 1857.
However, in 1891 I have John Chapman (fruiterer) born 1861 Islington with mother
Elizabeth Chapman born 1829 Cheshire, not Caroline born 1828 Haddenham, wife Charlotte Chapman and various children including 5 year old Alfred Chapman born Islington.
I cannot find any Chapman children mmn Fletcher on the GRO.
So is the John Chapman in 1861 and 1871 the same man as the one in 1891?
Just to confuse things further there are at least 2 John Chapmans born about 1820 in Haddenham and the one I think I have a DNA link to is the son of Joseph Chapman and Rebecca Cox not William (wife Elizabeth) who appears to be ancestor of Alfred Chapman born 1886.
I am now totally befuddled, if anyone else can help me work this out I would be grateful.
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Hello :)
For us lookers - I'm sure you have dug all of this out ;D
It seems to clarify:
Your subject Alfred William Chapman's birth was Registered as Alfred James Chapman, mms Wilkinson. His father John's mother is listed in 1891 as: Mother: Elizabeth 62, widow, b Cheshire
The first Census for your subject Alfred William Chapman (with Wife Lizzie, first daughter Edith) after their 1906 Marriage: Gives his place of Birth as Holloway, which falls in Islington Reg District.
In 1921 at as 19 June, Alfred W Chapman's age is 35Y, 4 mths - indicating birth Feb 1886
In 1939, Alfred W Chapman's DoB is given as 18 Feb 1886 - so expect registration Mar Qtr 1886 Islington
Alfred James Chapman, baptised 18 Apr 1886, born 18 Feb 1886
John Chapman, Greengrocer & Charlotte Chapman. Abode Adams Place
BIRTHS mms WILKINSON - 5 children
William Alfred Chapman SQ 1883 Islington
Alfred James Chapman MQ 1886 Islington
Francis Wren Chapman, SQ 1888, Islington
Henry George Chapman JQ 1891 Islington
Elizabeth Harriet Chapman JQ 1893 Islington
There are baptisms for all 5 of them, in the years of their births - William Alfred in Hackney, and the other 4 all in Islington with abode Adam's place, father John a Greengrocer (2,3), Costermonger (4) and General Dealer (5)
The 1891 Census: at 2a Adams Place, Islington
Head: John Chapman 32, Greengrocer, b Islington
Wife: Charlotte 30, b Islington
Mother: Elizabeth 62, widow, b Cheshire
Son: William 7, b Islington
Son: Alfred 5, b Islington
Son: Frank 2, b Islington
In the 1901 Census: at 4 Eden Grove , Lower Holloway, Islington
John Chapman 43, Fruiterer / Grocer
Wife: Charlotte 40
Son: William 17
Son: Alfred 15
Son Francis 12
All born Islington
Boarder: Benjamin Clark 28, single General Labourer, b Addesham, Bucks
? Where are Henry George b 1891 and Elizabeth Harriet b 1893 (they were alive in 1911)
In 1911, they're in Haddenham, Buckinghamshire
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X7V5-4RG?lang=en
John 53 & Charlotte 50, with sons Francis Wren 22 & Henry George 19 & daughter Elizabeth Harriet 17.
I wonder the eldest William Alfred died sometime between 1901 and 1911, and Alfred James - restyled as Alfred William in his memory?
Found the 1881 (hoping for more clues on John) and an extra child:
1881: at 40 Alsen Road, St Ann Islington (Upper Hololoway)
Head: John Chapman 23, General Dealer, b Islington
Wife: Charlotte 20, b Islington
Son: James 5mths b Islington
Lodger John Mole 33, unm, General Laborer, b Kelshall, Herts
Baby James being the first child, makes sense as John Chapman & Charlotte Wilkinson married 22 Dec 1878
1880 Baptism on 14 Nov.
Joseph James Chapman, born 19 Oct 1880
Father: John Chapman, Greengrocer & Charlotte Chapman
Abode: 41 Alsen Rd, Seven Sisters Road
GRO: Joseph James Chapman, mms Wilkinson, DQ 1880 Islington
He may be the Joseph Chapman who died age 1, registered Mar Qrt 1882 Islington
So seems we're definitely looking for? John Chapman b abt 1858 Islington to:
Father: John Chapman, Fruiterer (as per the 1878 Marriage of son John)
Mother: Elizabeth, b abt 1829 Cheshire (as per 1891 Census with son John)
Unless Elizabeth was a Stepmother - or was mis-named on the Census and is really Caroline nee Fletcher ;D - definitely understand your befuddlement!!
Do you happen to know who Charotte Wilkinson was - her parents? The 1878 Marriage gave father as James Wilkinson, Carman ( she was a minor and one of the witness' was a James Wilkinson)
cheers
AMBLY
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Thanks Ambly,
Will review all this.
This is the marriage of John Chapman and Charlotte Wilkinson
Marriage Date 22 Dec 1878
Marriage Place Saint James, Holloway: Victoria Road, Islington, England,
Charlotte Wilkinson, minor, Father James Wilkinson carman
Spouse John Chapman greengrocer of full age, father John Chapman greengrocer
Both otp
Witnesses James Wilkinson and Eliza Brent.
I have 2 other possible children
Births
CHAPMAN, NELLIE mmn WILKINSON
GRO Reference: 1880 D Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 440
CHAPMAN, ROSINA ANNIE mmn WILKINSON
GRO Reference: 1879 S Quarter in ISLINGTON Volume 01B Page 307
Death
Rosina Annie Chapman
Birth abt 1879
Islington, London, United Kingdom
Death Date Sep 1879
Volume 1b
Page 162
Cannot find any more for Nellie
I haven't researched Charlotte as it was the Chapman link I was working on but I think this is her in 1871
Name Charlotte Wilkinson
Age 11
Estimated Birth Year 1860
Relation Daughter
Born Islington, Middlesex, England
Father James Wilkinson coal carman age 41 born St Pancras
Mother Elizabeth Wilkinson age 39 born Hertfordshire
Siblings Elizabeth age 15, James Wilkinson age 13, Charlotte Wilkinson age 11 and Rebecca Wilkinson age 5
This could be the baptism for Elizabeth
Name Elizabeth Jane Wilkinson
Baptism Date 26 Sep 1858
Baptism Place Saint Mary, Islington: Upper Street, Islington, Islington, England
James Wilkinson carpenter mother Elizabeth Wilkinson
If it is this could be the family in 1871 but no James and no Charlotte unless she is actually Charles and Elizabeth's place of birth has changed rather radically as has James' work.
James Wilkinson Age 30 born Shoreditch carpenter
Spouse's Name Elizabeth Wilkinson age 26 born Clerkenwell
Registration District Shoreditch
Sub-registration district Hoxton Old Town
ED, institution, or vessel 24
Neighbors View others on page
Household schedule number 29
Piece 243
Folio 124
Page number 5
Children
Elizabeth J Wilkinson age2
Charles Wilkinson age 1
James Wilkinson
58
Lodger
John Wilkinson
25
Lodger
Cannot find baptisms for Charlotte or Charles
Gill
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Possible for the missing children in 1901? In Haddingham
William Clarke 31
Ruth Clarke 31
Roy Clarke 4
Bussil Chapman 9 Nephew b Holloway
Bessie Chapman 7 Niece b Holloway
The connection is through Ruth as Roy's mmn is Chapman (registered as William Kenneth Roy)
Added - just spotted Benjamin Clark(e) the lodger with the Chapmans in 1901 from "Addingham". He's William Clarke's brother
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Hi Gill
So many forks in the search-road, whichever way you look, aren't there!
Re: Charlotte Wilkinson's parentage -My reasoning for asking is I'm wondering if mother "Elizabeth Chapman 62, b Cheshire" - might actually be Charlotte's mother, misnamed as "Chapman" on the 1891 Census with John Jr & Charlotte.
Re: Extra children for John & Charlotte.
Nellie born 1880 - can't be theirs. The 1881 Census for John & Charlotte is at 41 Alsen Road, with a 5mth old, James. Then I found the GRO reg & then Baptism & Birth for Joseph James Chapman born 19 Oct 1880 to John & Charlotte Chapman - family abode is 40 Alsen Road.
Rosina Annie born & died Sep Qtr 1879 - I think you're right, and she is their first born - never baptised. This actually makes sense because a) it fits with Dec 1878 marriage - and b) because it appears to solve the numbers mis-match in 1911 where Charlotte was said to have 5 children borne of the marriage, 2 are deceased. I think there was a misunderstanding of the question when they filled in the form - and it should have said she had borne 7 children, 2 deceased (meaning 5 are living) - ie: Rosina was the missing piece of that puzzle
I'd say the 5 living in 1911 are ( and all but Wiiliam are so far proved to be so)
William Alfred 1883
Alfred James (later Alfred William) 1886
Francis Wren 1886
Henry George 1891
Elizabeth Harriett 1893
and the 2 deceased are Rosina (b 1879) & Joseph James (b 1880)
Re: Your original Question re: John's parentage could be John Chapman & Caroline nee Fletcher: "So is the John Chapman in 1861 and 1871 the same man as the one in 1891"
Short answer is I think definitely so.. John Jnr & Charlotte's missing 2 children in 1901 are the link.
I had found the baptisms of Henry George (b 1891) and Elizabeth Harriet (b 1893) along with the GRO mms Wilkinson - and they are at home with John & Charlotte in 1911 in Haddenham - but were not with the family on the 1901 Census in Islington.
Have found them in 1901 - staying with Aunty Ruth Clarke nee Chapman
1901: Dark Lane, Haddenham, Bucks
Head: William Clarke 36, Ordinary Agricultural Labourer, b Haddenham, Bucks
Wife: Ruth Clarke 34, b Finsbury Park, London
Son: Roy Clarke, 4, b Haddenham Bucks
Nephew: Basil Chapman 9, b Holloway, London
Niece: Bessie Chapman 7, b Holloway, London
Users have attached comment to the record that:
"Basil was the popular name for Henry George Chapman"
"Bessie is Elizabeth Harriet Chapman, daughter of John & Charlotte, and John is Ruth's brother - she is nee Chapman.
MARRIAGE 1894 registered Sep Qtr, Wycombe
William CLARKE
Ruth CHAPMAN
Which of course - leads smack bang back to… John Chapman and Caroline Fletcher and the mysteries you've come up against there! I will post the digging up I did on that.
edit: Snap Mabel ;D I was typing as you posted, so just added mine in too
Cheers
AMBLY
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John Chapman (Snr) and Caroline Flecher
MARRIAGE: 13 Sep 1857 Islington
John Chapman, full age, Bachelor, Labourer, Wood Cottage, Holloway. Father: William Chapman, Labourer
Caroline Flatcher, full age, Spinster, Wood Cottage, Holloway. Father: William Flatcher, Labourer
Witness: A Ray. A Ray.
All parties signed their own names - and rightly or wrongly, it's clearly "Flatcher" in the 3 times written on the cert.
This marriage is apparently after the births of some of the children, hmm?
1861: Coles Cottage, Andover Rd, Upper Holloway, Islington
Head: John Chapman 40, Labourer Builder, b Haddenham, Bucks
Wife: Caroline 33, b Haddenham, Bucks
Dau: Sarah 9, b Haddenham, Bucks
Son: William 5, b Islington
Dau: Ann 4, b Islington
Son: John 3, b Islington
Son: Tom 1, b Islington
Mother in Law: Dinah Fletcher 60, widow, b Haddenham, Bucks
1871: At 45 Franchise Street, Andover Road, Upper Holloway, Islington
Head: John Chapman 50, GreenGrocer, b Haddenham, Bucks
Wife: Caroline 44, b Haddenham, Bucks
Dau: Ann 15
Son: William 15, A seller of Cuts Meat
Son: John 13, GreenGrocer boy
Soh: Thomas 11, Scholar,
Dau: Elizabeth 9
Dau: Ruth 5
All children b Islington
1881: 54 Victor Rd, Islington
Head: John Chapman 58, GreenGrocer, b Haddenham, Bucks
Wife: Caroline 59, b Haddenham, Bucks
Son: William 25, unm, GreenGrocer
Son: Thomas 21, unm, GreenGrocer
Dau: Elizabeth 19,
Dau: Ruth 15,
Children - all b Islington
1891: Church End, Haddenham, Bucks
Head: John Chapman 72, General Labourer, b Haddenham, Bucks
Wife: Caroline 64, b Haddenham, Bucks
Dau: Ruth 25, single, b London
1901: Beacon Hill, Penn, Bucks
Head
The Children
Sarah abt 1852
William abt 1855 - baptised 2 Dec 1855, Tollington park Islington. Abode Leomister Rd. Labourer
Ann abt 1855 - baptised 2 Dec 1855, Tollington park Islington. Abode Leomister Rd. Labourer
John Abt 1857
Tom abt 1861 - bapstised 20 May 1860, Tollington park Islington. Abode Franchise St. Labourer
Elizabeth abt 1862 - baptised 1 June 1862, Tollington park Islington. Abode Andover Rd. Labourer
Joseph abt 1862? - baptised 1 June 1862, Tollington park Islington. Abode Andover Rd. Labourer
Ruth abt 1865
haven't found a baptism for Sarah (Bucks), John or Ruth. Tom's baptism matches the family address in 1871.
And as you say - struggling to find any GRO Birth registration with mms Fletcher for any of them! The marriage in 1857 but baptisms in 1855 and Sarah born abt 1852 - may be a big red flag.
In taking it back to the Census Dinah Fletcher (wife of William) - her youngest Francis was born after start of Civil Ref:
GRO: Francis Fletcher, mms COLLINDRIDGE. MQ Aylesbury
Cheers
AMBLY
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Added - just spotted Benjamin Clark(e) the lodger with the Chapmans in 1901 from "Addingham". He's William Clarke's brother
Oh well spotted Mabel ;D !! Double seals the deal?
John Chapman Jnr (married 1878 to Charlotte Wilkinson) is son of:
John Chapman Snr (married 1857 to Caroline Fletcher)
So now the mystery is:
Who is Mother Elizabeth Chapman 62, widow b Cheshire with John/Charlotte in 1891 Census?
Where are the Birth registrations mms Fletcher of the John/Caroline (married 1857) children?
Why were some of the children born/baptised before their 1857 marriage?
John and Caroline stated to be Bachelor & Spinster in 1857 marriage - but were they? going by their pretty consistent ages in Census 1861-1901, he was abt 35 and she was abt 30 when they married.
Cheers
AMBLY
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Thank you both for all the help, sympathy with my confusion and confirmation of my findings.
Good thought re. Elizabeth being Charlotte's mother will investigate further. She certainly seems a little confused as to place of birth - so far I have Hertfordshire and Clerkenwell so Cheshire?
Gill