RootsChat.Com
Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: jornage5 on Sunday 23 March 25 14:44 GMT (UK)
-
Hello, I'm looking for help with finding birth records of my great-grandmother Mary Brown (later Percival).
Census records of 1921 and 1939 both say she was born in Bangor Caernarvonshire. My mum remembers her being from north west Wales.
On the 1921 census it gives her age as 30 years and 3 months which suggests a DOB of January 1891. On the 1939 it gives her DOB as 25 Mar 1890.
Her marriage certificate of 1916 gives her father's name as James Brown (deceased) and that she was 25 which suggests DOB 1891.
I can't find a Mary Brown in either the GRO online index or on Ancestry that was born around that time anywhere near Bangor. Nor can I find a Mary Brown of around that age living with a James Brown in the 1891,1901 or 1911 census.
I can find a Mary Brown born 1881 in Bangor with James Brown as her father but that is 10 years earlier and I'm struggling to believe that she could have been so wrong about her age. My mum says she wasn't literate and grew up destitute which may explain a DOB discrepancy but 10 years is pushing it a bit.
Is there somewhere else I can look for this information? I live near Bangor so is it worth a trip to the records office at all or would that just be the same information as on the GRO?
Any help of information would be very gratefully received.
-
Have you considered that she may be illegitimate and made up a name for her father.
-
First child Harold any idea why they chose this name.
First son is usually named for paternal grandfather which would be Joseph.
First daughter after maternal grandmother .
Who were the witnesses at the wedding, hopefully relatives.
-
Thanks so much for your reply.
Yes, Mary may have been illegitimate, we know nothing about her parents. She'd still have her birth registered though wouldn't she?
Her eldest son Harold was named after Mary's husband John's eldest brother. The second son they named Joseph. Her daughters were Gladys then Lena. I have messaged Lena's daughter to see if she knows anything about where the names came from, that's an excellent suggestion - thank you.
The marriage witnesses were friends of John.
All my mum remembers being told about Mary is that John 'brought her back from a farm in Wales', she was illiterate and very poor. Seeing as John also lived in Wales and was also poor she took that to mean that she came from very rural Wales and absolute poverty.
-
They married in Wrexham. The other Bangor would be nearer. (Bangor on Dee/ Bangor Isycoed) Perhaps her husband filling in the 1921 just assumed it was the bigger place. Where did she say she was living on the marriage certificate?
-
Her address on the marriage certificate is her mother-in-law's address.
I did considered the possibility of Bangor-On-Dee and Bangor Is Y Coed, my mum says she was from north west Wales though. The 1939 register also says Bangor Caern. I will have another look at those being a possibility though - thank you.
-
There's a Mary Brown b c1888, Bangor [on Dee], Denbighshire, working as a servant in Eccleston, Cheshire on the 1911 census
-
Could this be Mary Brown born in Bangor-On-Dee on the 1911 Census (in Eccleston), I'm guessing the registration district would be Wrexham:
BROWN, MARY ANN GOMER
GRO Reference: 1888 M Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 11B Page 286
Ancestry suggests she married a HIGGS in 1912.
-
I've just got Mary's death certificate. It says she was 63 in April 1952 suggesting she was born 1888 or 1889.
It also gives a middle name of Elizabeth which I haven't seen before but I've heard from family as being a possibility.
-
First child Harold any idea why they chose this name.
First son is usually named for paternal grandfather which would be Joseph.
First daughter after maternal grandmother
Who were the witnesses at the wedding, hopefully relatives.
Possibly his brother if this is the right John.
1911 Lavister Rossett
Thomas Shone 45Head
Sarah Alice Shone 37Wife
John Percival Son / step b Rossett
Harold Percival18 Son / step
-
Yes that's right, Harold was his elder brother.
-
mary brown GRO search: 1887 march Bangor page 423, mother’s maiden name: Jones
You can buy a digital copy to confirm that this is the correct person. She’s the only one in Bangor in the years around 1890.
You’ll need to register on the GRO and pay £3 for a digital image.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Results
-
mary brown GRO search: 1887 march Bangor page 423, mother’s maiden name: Jones
You can buy a digital copy to confirm that this is the correct person. She’s the only one in Bangor in the years around 1890.
You’ll need to register on the GRO and pay £3 for a digital image.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp#Results
The father is Alexander Brown and it looks like she went on to marry an Eardley according to Ancestry.
Am I allowed to post the GRO images for all of the searches that I've done here?
-
The 1901 census has this mary living with a father called alexander brown at tyddyn llwydyn bangor, not James Brown.
She’s at the same address in 1891.
-
Hello, I'm looking for help with finding birth records of my great-grandmother Mary Brown (later Percival).
Census records of 1921 and 1939 both say she was born in Bangor Caernarvonshire. My mum remembers her being from north west Wales.
On the 1921 census it gives her age as 30 years and 3 months which suggests a DOB of January 1891. On the 1939 it gives her DOB as 25 Mar 1890.
Her marriage certificate of 1916 gives her father's name as James Brown (deceased) and that she was 25 which suggests DOB 1891.
I can't find a Mary Brown in either the GRO online index or on Ancestry that was born around that time anywhere near Bangor. Nor can I find a Mary Brown of around that age living with a James Brown in the 1891,1901 or 1911 census.
I can find a Mary Brown born 1881 in Bangor with James Brown as her father but that is 10 years earlier and I'm struggling to believe that she could have been so wrong about her age. My mum says she wasn't literate and grew up destitute which may explain a DOB discrepancy but 10 years is pushing it a bit.
Is there somewhere else I can look for this information? I live near Bangor so is it worth a trip to the records office at all or would that just be the same information as on the GRO?
Any help of information would be very gratefully received.
Where exactly did the marriage take place.
Where were both couples abode.
Who were the witnesses.
-
Is this her death. If so then she spent most of her time around Wrexham.
Mary Percival
Death Age 65
Birth Date abt 1888
Registration DateJul 1953 [Aug 1953][Sep 1953]Registration QuarterJul-Aug-Sep
Registration District Wrexham
-
Is this her death. If so then she spent most of her time around Wrexham.
Mary Percival
Death Age 65
Birth Date abt 1888
Registration DateJul 1953 [Aug 1953][Sep 1953]Registration QuarterJul-Aug-Sep
Registration District Wrexham
Yes, this is the correct death record, I have the certificate.
-
Where exactly did the marriage take place.
Where were both couples abode.
Who were the witnesses.
The marriage was in Wrexham register office. This is a little bit odd because everyone in the family that she married into (the Percivals) frequented and used Rossett church for every occasion. She wasn't pregnant (Harold didn't arrive for over a year) so I did wonder whether she possibly came from a catholic family. It was war time though so maybe this was the reason.
The addresses given are Harold's mother's house in Rossett for Mary and Acton Hall, Acton for Harold (this is a strange bit of information that my mum can't explain).
The witnesses were John and Mary Gibson, friends of Harold.
-
Jornage -I checked the 1939 register because you said it says Bangor, Caern which it can't do as it does not ask for birthplaces. However there are two couples both called John and Mary Percival in the Wrexham area. John with Mary (born 1890)is a skilled general labourer and has correct children. The other John is with Mary E (born 1888) and is a railway signalman with different children. It looks like the death certificate you mention above in reply 8 for Mary Elizabeth Percival might be the latter one, who is not your Mary.
(A Mary Elizabeth Percival age 63 was buried 1 May 1952 in Wrexham cemetery)
According to NorthWalesBMD John and Mary did marry at the Registry Office, so I take it most of the references to 'Harold' in reply17 should read 'John'.
Acton Hall will just be where John was working, it is only about five miles from Rossett.
-
Where exactly did the marriage take place.
Where were both couples abode.
Who were the witnesses.
The marriage was in Wrexham register office. This is a little bit odd because everyone in the family that she married into (the Percivals) frequented and used Rossett church for every occasion. She wasn't pregnant (Harold didn't arrive for over a year) so I did wonder whether she possibly came from a catholic family. It was war time though so maybe this was the reason.
The addresses given are Harold's mother's house in Rossett for Mary and Acton Hall, Acton for Harold (this is a strange bit of information that my mum can't explain).
The witnesses were John and Mary Gibson, friends of Harold.
I'm guessing you mean John.
-
Jornage -I checked the 1939 register because you said it says Bangor, Caern which it can't do as it does not ask for birthplaces. However there are two couples both called John and Mary Percival in the Wrexham area. John with Mary (born 1890)is a skilled general labourer and has correct children. The other John is with Mary E (born 1888) and is a railway signalman with different children. It looks like the death certificate you mention above in reply 8 for Mary Elizabeth Percival might be the latter one, who is not your Mary.
(A Mary Elizabeth Percival age 63 was buried 1 May 1952 in Wrexham cemetery)
According to NorthWalesBMD John and Mary did marry at the Registry Office, so I take it most of the references to 'Harold' in reply17 should read 'John'.
Acton Hall will just be where John was working, it is only about five miles from Rossett.
You are absolutely correct with all my mistakes here (apologies for the confusion, this is my first time doing all this).
The 1939 register does not say her birthplace. The Bangor Caern that I thought was mentioned there is on the 1911 Wales Census for a Mary Brown born around 1882 working as a servant in Mold.
There are 2 John and Mary Percivals in Wrexham (I keep tripping over them all!). The railway worker John is not the correct one. The correct Mary Brown died in July 1953 in Wrexham Hospital, the death was registered in Ruthin by her son Harold (my grandfather).
The reason Acton Hall was puzzling place for him to be residing to my mum is that John was a soldier when they married and had been with his regiment in England.
-
I'm guessing you mean John.
Yes I do, sorry! I have a picture of Mary here with her son Harold, his name must have been stuck in my mind.
-
The reason Acton Hall was puzzling place for him to be residing to my mum is that John was a soldier when they married and had been with his regiment in England.
Encyclopedia of Wrexham.
During WW1 Acton Hall was used for training by the military, notably the 3rd Battalion Welsh Mounted Brigade
. ( Denbighshire Hussars)
This might explain why John Percival gave it as his abode.
Still no help with Mary Brown though 🤔
-
Have you discounted the Mary Brown b c1888, Bangor [on Dee], Denbighshire, working as a servant in Eccleston, Cheshire on the 1911 census that I posted in reply 6?
-
Have you discounted the Mary Brown b c1888, Bangor [on Dee], Denbighshire, working as a servant in Eccleston, Cheshire on the 1911 census that I posted in reply 6?
I don't want to discount her completely but it looks like she married a Higgs in 1912.
-
Have you discounted the Mary Brown b c1888, Bangor [on Dee], Denbighshire, working as a servant in Eccleston, Cheshire on the 1911 census that I posted in reply 6?
I don't want to discount her completely but it looks like she married a Higgs in 1912.
There's a Mary Ann Brown in Wrexham in 1911 with her mother and Mr Higgs as the lodger. As she's a general servant she could be the same one as Eccleston, enumerated twice
-
A bit of something or nothing.
In 1853 Patrick Brown b Ireland marred Catherine Hegarty b Liverpool in Bangor
In 1861 they in Mold with daughter Margaret registered 1854 Holywell .
In 1871 they are in Bangor, Margaret is 17.
1881 and Margaret is missing, but there is a son James 12 b Bangor .
James is with the family till 1911, he married in 1912 and died in 1934 aged 63, so born 1871
A James Brown was registered June qtr 1871 Bangor mmn Brown.
Could James be the illigitmate son of Margaret Brown, and Patrick and Catherine really his grandparents.
The birth registration for Mary Brown hasn't been found for sure, the only clue is she says she was born in Bangor and her father was James Brown.
It's possible that if she was born c 1890 / 1891 that James b 1871 was old enough to be her father.
The only drawback is that this Brown family seemed to quite settled and employed .
This doesn't sit right with Mary being destitute, but it depends on her mothers circumstances.
This all must be taken with a pinch of salt but .......
-
A bit of something or nothing.
In 1853 Patrick Brown b Ireland marred Catherine Hegarty b Liverpool in Bangor
In 1861 they in Mold with daughter Margaret registered 1854 Holywell .
In 1871 they are in Bangor, Margaret is 17.
1881 and Margaret is missing, but there is a son James 12 b Bangor .
James is with the family till 1911, he married in 1912 and died in 1934 aged 63, so born 1871
A James Brown was registered June qtr 1871 Bangor mmn Brown.
Could James be the illigitmate son of Margaret Brown, and Patrick and Catherine really his grandparents.
The birth registration for Mary Brown hasn't been found for sure, the only clue is she says she was born in Bangor and her father was James Brown.
It's possible that if she was born c 1890 / 1891 that James b 1871 was old enough to be her father.
The only drawback is that this Brown family seemed to quite settled and employed .
This doesn't sit right with Mary being destitute, but it depends on her mothers circumstances.
This all must be taken with a pinch of salt but .......
Well this is very interesting and i think it's something for me to consider.
I have messaged 2 of my mum's cousins who are older than her and may remember more about Mary. The first one has said that John 'brought her back from Wales' (whatever that means) and that 'her family was Irish which is why Harold and Joe had red hair' and 'she was older than she said she was'.
It's not a great deal of help I know, but it's something. I've asked her if she thinks that the reason that they didn't marry in Rossett church was because Mary was catholic.
-
https://newspapers.library.wales/view/3880026/3880042/125/Patrick%2BOR%2Bbrown
1901 Thomas buildings Caepella
Patrick Browne 67Head
Catherine Browne 66Wife
Peter Browne 32Son
James Browne29Son
Apart from this one there's many previous reports about Patrick and the drink, some of them have address which matches census.
Not much help really .
-
On Mary's marriage certificate of 1916 James Brown is deceased. However, John's age is incorrect on it (it says he is 24 but he was 25, I have his birth certificate) so it isn't a 100% reliable source. There is also no occupation given for James, it's just blank. Maybe the registrar was drunk when he wrote it ;D
-
There are 2 John and Mary Percivals in Wrexham (I keep tripping over them all!). The railway worker John is not the correct one. The correct Mary Brown died in July 1953 in Wrexham Hospital, the death was registered in Ruthin by her son Harold (my grandfather).
Is this correct. A death has to be registered in the district it took place within 5 days.
Why do you say Ruthin.?
-
Is this correct. A death has to be registered in the district it took place within 5 days.
Why do you say Ruthin.?
Yes, I don't know why it would be registered in Ruthin - is it OK to register a death anywhere in the same county?
I had assumed that this was her death record:
PERCIVAL, MARY ELIZABETH 63
GRO Reference: 1952 J Quarter in WREXHAM Volume 08A Page 403
It says widow of John Percival of Victoria Road Wrexham (Railway Signalman) registered by son W.J. Percival of Jubilee Road Wrexham. This isn't a match, they only ever lived in Rossett and their sons were Harold and Joseph who also lived in Rossett and John didn't die until 1959.
But this is the correct one:
PERCIVAL, MARY 65
GRO Reference: 1953 S Quarter in RUTHIN Volume 08A Page 331
It says wife of John Percival, Retired General Labourer of Club House Rossett (this house is still in the family), registered by son H.Percival of 6 Green Cottages Rossett (which is the house my mum grew up in).
So by this, she was born in 1888
Her marriage certificate suggests 1891
The 1921 Census suggests March 1891
The 1939 register says 25th March 1890
-
GRO has the entry as Ruthin.
Freebmd has it as Wrexham.
Both entries have the same Reference number.
That's rather confusing isn't it. Deaths are supposed to be registered in the district it took place.
Maybe an error on the GRO
Definitely your Mary though.
-
A quick mention about births in Bangor. A child may be born in Bangor, but it could be in the maternity hospital which means that child could be living anywhere in the Bangor area (even on Anglesey) and would not necessarily turn up in Bangor in the next census.
-
Hello,
St David's (also known as County) Hospital, the children & maternity hospital in Bangor was not built until 1913, it was closed and then demolished in 1994. I was born there in 1962 and my son in 1983 I still have two bricks from the demolition as they sold them for charity - it was a big red brick building.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_David%27s_Hospital,_Bangor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_David%27s_Hospital,_Bangor)