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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Dublin => Topic started by: Abhanliath on Saturday 22 March 25 15:40 GMT (UK)
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I'm absolutely baffled by this family. James Byrne was a young lad who lived with his mother in 31 Lower Stephen Street, Dublin in 1916.
Margaret Byrne, who's variously described as "dull-witted" and "mentally deficient" later lived in 34 or 36 Clarendon Street. I've found a marriage registration that may be hers - in Dublin, in 1887, when Patrick Byrne married Margaret Daly. Patrick, a gardener, was living in 33 1/2 Clarendon Street, and Margaret in St Michael's, Eglinton Road. Neither Thom's nor the census is any help in saying what St Michael's may have been.
I've also found Margaret's and James's death registrations (attached). (I notice that the registrar has corrected Margaret's name to Martha…? But if the marriage registration is her, then she married as Margaret, and she's Margaret in the Military Archives pension records.
However, I've failed to find Margaret and James (most inconsiderately, not only using the commonest surname in Dublin but also two of the commonest names) in birth records or in either of the censuses. And I haven't found Patrick's death registration - Margaret was a widow when her son died.
Unless… could this Martha be her? And if so, did her other son die? The census entry seems confused. https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Mansion_House/Mercer_Street__Upper/74217/
But still no sign of them in 1901…
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James's and Margaret/Martha's death registrations.
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This may be a birth to that couple - it is a James but in 1888. 1911 census shows 10 children born but only 2 living though so there may be a death later for this James.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1888/02497/1926069.pdf
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Wow, it does look like the right parents!
I don't know if the 10 children is correct… it seems to be crossed out and re-entered. But no, I think our Jim would be 10 years later. I wonder what happened to his brother - there's no sign of him later.
(Of course, it was quite possible in those days to have 10 children and have only two survive, for instance though the actions of Rhesus negative.)
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I wonder if this could be the family in the 1901 census: https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Dublin/Whitechurch/Ballyboden/1291307/ The ages don't chime, though…
Was checking using this handy census map https://www.dublinhistoricmaps.ie/boundaries/1901-1911-census-divisions/index.html
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The census information should not have been entered as she was a widow. That is why it is crossed out.
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Peter Byrne b 1890
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/cert_amends/cert_1890/1908862b.pdf
Richard Joseph b 1893
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1893/02305/1864386.pdf
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I think these are a different family. Here they are in 1911
http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Dublin/Rathmines___Rathgar_East/Ranelagh_Avenue/44345/
Maybe that is not the parents’ marriage.
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Maybe not, but our Margaret/Martha Byrne definitely lived in Clarendon Street, at various numbers in the 30s - 33, 34, 36, as a widow, so it'd be a bit of a coincidence if the 33 Clarendon Street address for a husband wasn't correct.
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Maybe not, but our Margaret/Martha Byrne definitely lived in Clarendon Street, at various numbers in the 30s - 33, 34, 36, as a widow, so it'd be a bit of a coincidence if the 33 Clarendon Street address for a husband wasn't correct.
The address on the marriage certificate for the husband is 331/2 (ie thirty three and a half) Clarendon street
https://www.buildingsofireland.ie/buildings-search/building/50920081/patrick-sheary-33-clarendon-street-dublin-2-dublin
PS Only mentioned as I love these addresses with half etc in them.
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Unless they forgot to register a birth, it looks as if the James born in 1888 is our James - how strange that his age should have been stated as ten years less!
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I haven't found Patrick's death either. Drat them with their common names! And if only the Civil Records site had a street address field!
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Peter Byrne b 1890
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/cert_amends/cert_1890/1908862b.pdf
Richard Joseph b 1893
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1893/02305/1864386.pdf
I can only find (so far)
Peter 1890
Patrick 1891
Richard Joseph 1893
James 1888
on FS.
The death certificate is for a 17 year old James Byrne so born 1898/9. Possibly this James would not have had children before dying at this young age.
Who is your ancestor from the remaining three boys?
ETA:
An 1887 marriage fits in with this little family
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Which member of the family are you researching?
You are using Clarendon Street as the marker but there are several years between the records where you have it.
There are Byrne families in 1901 and 1911 censuses in Clarendon Street and as you say it is a common name.
Which records do you have where Margaret is described as ‘dull-witted’ and ‘mentally deficient’. The censuses don’t record anything like that for her.
Sorry, this is all questions - you also mention Military Archive records - who is that for?
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Look at http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/search.aspx?formtype=advanced for James Byrne and you'll find the lad I'm looking for; the military pension is for his bereaved mother. This is the James Byrne aged 17 killed in 1916. The "dull-witted" descriptions are from that scanty pension application. The Margaret (corrected by registrar to Martha) Byrne in the death registration I posted is that James's mother.
I'm inclined to think that the Edmondstown family is a different one; Margaret/Martha Byrne, mother of James, who died in 1916, was 81 when she died in 1936.
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Just for information - the marriage of Richard Byrne, father Patrick , a gardener.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1926/09125/5300359.pdf
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Just for information - the marriage of Richard Byrne, father Patrick , a gardener.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1926/09125/5300359.pdf
I am getting less and less certain that the James/Margaret combination we have here has any relation to the family that includes Patrick, Peter Richard and James with births around the late 1880s early 1890s.
The James who was killed in 1916 has a mother who depended on him and his contributions from his previous occupation of grocer's assistant. If this is the 1888 James then that James had a brother Richard who was alive and getting maried in 1926 with an occupation of Insurance agent (as found by Heywood) plus possibly two other brothers. All these three could, on the face of it, be making some contribution towards their mother.
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Look at http://mspcsearch.militaryarchives.ie/search.aspx?formtype=advanced for James Byrne and you'll find the lad I'm looking for; the military pension is for his bereaved mother. This is the James Byrne aged 17 killed in 1916. The "dull-witted" descriptions are from that scanty pension application. The Margaret (corrected by registrar to Martha) Byrne in the death registration I posted is that James's mother.
I'm inclined to think that the Edmondstown family is a different one; Margaret/Martha Byrne, mother of James, who died in 1916, was 81 when she died in 1936.
Margaret Byrne, if she is the mother of a 17 years old James would have been 44 at his birth, not out of the way in age but a little unusual.
Even though you have referred to a change from Margaret to Martha I could not fully read what it said (do you have it written out?) and the military files refer to her as Margaret rather than Martha. Did the change to Martha happen after 1916?
NB ETA the military papers in one part mention Marta Byrne
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I think Martha was probably her proper name. The place it appears is in a correction by the registrar on her death registration (attached).
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it is that red pointed piece that I would like to see written out...especially on whose behalf or on whose authority it was made. Mrs B Morgan acted as 'trustee' (particularly for sums of money due) to Mrs Byrne for 20 or so years and it was on her authority that the Mrs Byrne was buried and the death registered. The name of the person who made the affidavit referred to does not seem to be Mrs Morgan. Mrs Morgan's name was Brigid I think.
It may be a case that her name was Margaret but she was aka (also known as) Martha and may have been known as Martha by the person who signed the statutory declaration.
I pored through the military file and could find nowhere any indication of the age of James Byrne or even a birthdate though Mrs Byrne's own birthdate is given in 1855. It is the death certificate that has an age of 17 years.
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That's right, and death certs can be uninformed at times. But it has the correct address for where they were living.
Transcription of the registrar's declaration on the death registration: "In No 3554(3) for Margaret Byrne read Martha Byrne corrected by me on 8.12.36 in regard as of registrar on production of statutory declaration made by Elizabeth Moulds first sent at death, MOS"
If you look across to the listing it reads:
355, 1936 29th November, 36 Clarendon Street, Margaret Byrne, Female, widow, 81 years, nil (under "Occupation"), acute cardiac failure 7 days senility certified, B Morgan (who took charge of the body) 57 South Richmond Street under "informant"), First December 1936 (under "when registered", M O'Sullivan (under "signature of registrar").
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The big question is though who is Elizabeth Moulds who is able to give a declaration that another person's name is different from that she was married under and different from that she received a pension from her son's death under.
Do you know of the names of any other siblings of James? Who is the family you are tracking?
The James who died in 1916 is clearly given the age of 17 years. So he may have been born around 1898-1899 to a mother named Margaret who may also be known as Martha if the pension record is correct.
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I know very little. I have the military pension files, Margaret and Patrick's probable marriage registration and James's possible (but 10 years earlier) birth registration, and a probable sighting of Margaret, James and a younger brother Patrick in the 1911 census. And James's death registration in 1916 giving his age as 17, and Margaret's death registration in 1936 in her 80s.
As I read the registrar's statement, Elizabeth Moulds was a neighbour of Bridget Morgan's and went down to register Margaret's death; later, the registrar corrected the forename from Margaret to Martha. My guess - and it's only a guess - about this is that the registrar had records available to him that caused him to correct Margaret to Martha.
I don't know what St Michael's, Eglinton Road, was - that was Margaret's residence at the time of her marriage - but wonder if it might have been an orphanage or convent. But I can't find any such place in Thom's or the censuses.