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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: JacobusV on Thursday 20 March 25 22:22 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
I have another brick wall I'm looking to break through. My Great Grandfather Eli Webb was born in Alderney, Channel Islands on the 24th of August 1874. He moved to Bridgeton, just outside Glasgow. He was killed in action in France in December 1914 during the First World War. I believe his Father was a William George Webb (although I have no details of when or where he was born), his wife and Eli's mother was an Ellen McWhinnie born in Shotts, South Lanarkshire in 1847.
My brick wall is Eli's father William. Would anyone be able to help me at all?
Cheers
J
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Eli married in Scotland in 1897 therefore his marriage certificate will give details of his parents.
Father is given as William Webb Sergeant 6th Foot (deceased)
Mother Ellen Webb nee McWhinnie
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Hi there
I have seen this, however, I'm keen to know more about William, Eli's father, such as where he was from, who were his parents etc. I have been unable to find any information on him.
Cheers
J
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Where is Eli in 1881 & 1891
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Why do you think Ellen was born in Shotts? Where does her date of birth come from?
You need to look at Scotlands People and download some documents: -
Helen Webb / Helen McWhinney (age 61) died 1918 Bridgeton
Her death certificate is available and will give you information about her parents.
Her 1911 census record is available and will give you information about her place of birth
Ellen McWhinney WEBB
Female, 60, Calton, Lanark
Ref - 644/3 61/ 9
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William Webb and Ellen McWhinney married in Newtownards, Ireland on 10 May 1873
Marriage certificate here
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11270/8133454.pdf
Looks like Ellen was a local girl, but no information where William was from.
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Hi there
I had a look at the link, however I can't make out the name of Williams Father, is it Henry?
J
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His father is Thomas Webb - farmer
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It looks as if Eli had a Brother named George Henry Webb, born in Dover, Kent in 1877.
It would be worth acquiring his birth certificate to see if there is more information about the father William.
George Henry Webb married in 1904 Glasgow to Jemima Stevenson. I would also look at the marriage certificate to find more information about the father William.
George Henry died in Glasgow in 1948.
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There is a mention in the Police Gazette of a William Webb, age 27, of 6th foot Regiment who deserted in October 1877 in Dover. This would tie in with him being there when his second son was born earlier in the same year.
This deserter, William Webb was born in Holcombe Somerset abt 1850, and I can see there is a possible baptism there in January 1852 with a father named Thomas, and mother Eliza.
It needs much further investigation to see if this is a possible father for your Eli.
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Helen McWhinney / Helen Webb had a second marriage in 1916 Scotland to Henry McLeod.
Have a look at that marriage certificate to get both her parents names. It might also mention when her previous husband died.
I wonder if this is the marriage of her parents (George Mawinney and Catherine Kennedy) in Ireland in 1848
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1848/09356/5388140.pdf
There are quite a few important documents for you to acquire if you want to have the correct information and to supply reliable leads to other information.
If you post the information from these documents it will allow us to continue to assist you. :)
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JacobusV, I hope the information I posted above was clear / understandable.
Since you have not replied to your thread (although you have been online several times), it is not possible to know if it was useful, or if there is any further help required.
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Hi All
The information regards my Ancestor William Webb has been very helpful. The Webb side of my family beyond my Great Grandfather Eli Webb has been a total mystery, not only to me but to the rest of my family. Its fascinating to realize that my 2 times Great Grandfather Eli Web seems to be from Holcombe, Somerset. It seems too much of a coincidence that My Great Uncle George Webb was born in Dover and his father deserted from the army in Dover around the same time. Ancestry doesn't seem to have much more information. However I did find a census form with William aged 9 living in Shepton Mallet. He seems to be living with Eliza Webb aged 51 head of household (his mother?), Eliza Langley aged 22 (sister or perhaps under age mother considering the Head of household has a different name with no husband), Caroline Langley 17. No mention of Thomas Webb whatsoever.
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Hi All
It is the same William born in Holcombe in 1852 or christened in 1852.
J
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Ancestry doesn't seem to have much more information.
Well, there IS more information available on Ancestry and other sites, but as explained above you have to acquire some vital records that will hopefully provide more information to lead your next searches, and so you know where next to look.
Questions from this thread that you have not yet answered -------
From Reply #3 - Where is Eli in 1881 & 1891 census?
From Reply #4 - Why do you think Ellen was born in Shotts? Where does her date of birth of 1847 come from?
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Recommended documents which may provide additional information about William Webb and Ellen McWhinney, and allow for further research -
1/
Birth Certificate
WEBB, GEORGE HENRY Mother - MCWHINNEY
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 951
Available from here £3.00 for an instant digital download
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
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2/
Birth and or baptism record for Eli WEBB
There may also be information available in Army lists from this link
From here -
https://www.priaulxlibrary.co.uk/collections/family-history
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3/
Marriage certificate of Helen McWhinney to Henry McLeod, 1916, Blythswood
Ref - 644 / 10 / 511
Available on Scotlands People
This will also confirm names of both of Ellen’s parents.
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4/
Marriage certificate of George Henry Webb to Jemima Stevenson 1904 Bridgeton
Ref - 644 / 1 / 223
Available on Scotlands People
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5/
1911 Census for Ellen McWhinney Webb (age 60) in Calton Lanark
Ref - 644/3 61/ 9
Available on Scotlands People
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6/
Death certificate for Helen Webb / Helen McWhinney / Helen McLeod (age 61) died 1918 Bridgeton
Ref - 644 / 1 / 324
Available on Scotlands People
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£10.50 will purchase ALL the documents you require and answer so many questions. Neale has given great details for you
SS
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Hi All
Regards Helen McWhinney and her marriage to Henry McLeod, it checks out, her parents were indeed Goerge Mawhinney (although they have it down as MacWhinney on the marriage register in Blythswood in Glasgow).
Details below:
Marriage date/location: 28th February 1916 50 Wellington Street Glasgow:
Henry McLeod, Colliery Labourer, usual residence, 47 Reid Street Bridgeton, Father William McLeod, Weaver deceased
Helen Webb (her x mark) widow, usual residence 47 Reid Street Bridgeton, parents George McWhinney, Weaver, deceased, Catherine McWhinney MS Kennedy deceased.
J
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I have also purchases the Marriage cert of George Henry Webb and Jemima Stevenson
They both lived at 10 French Street in Glasgow and were married into the Church of Scotland on the 8th of July 1904. Georges Father was William George Webb (either Tailor or Sailor hard to make out) and his mother was Helen Webb maiden surname McWhinnie (note the variations on spelling)
J
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The information about George’s father is crucial, and is the reason for acquiring this record.
If you cannot read it, please post it for others to read.
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I have tried multiple times but it won't allow me. Is there not a simpler method for getting documents or parts of documents cut and pasted rather than download?
J
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Are you following all the rules for uploading an attachment?
Allowed file types: txt, rtf, jpg, jpeg, gif, pdf, mpg, png, ged
Restrictions: 4 per post, maximum total size 900KB, maximum individual size 500KB
The filename must be unique within RootsChat.
I usually add my initials to the filename.
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Marriage date/location: 28th February 1916 50 Wellington Street Glasgow:
Henry McLeod, Colliery Labourer, usual residence, 47 Reid Street Bridgeton, Father William McLeod, Weaver deceased
Helen Webb (her x mark) widow, usual residence 47 Reid Street Bridgeton, parents George McWhinney, Weaver, deceased, Catherine McWhinney MS Kennedy deceased.
You haven't included ALL information on this document.
Are you able to type up everything - omit nothing, or post the document to the thread, please.
Added Note - the address of Wellington Street, Glasgow may be significant. The 1905 valuations has a George MACWHINNIE there.
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It is very easy to attach something. ……….. maybe the 8 yr old can help. ;)
Take a snippet of what you want.
Be sure that it is not bigger than 500KB, but still big enough to read. Give it a unique name, and attach it to your post, by clicking on the attach button.
If the first time the size is not right, and you have to readjust and attach again, then clear the attachment, and then you must change the name of the attachment before you try again.
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Parents of Ellen McWhinney
Marriage for George McWhinney / Mawhinney (weaver) to Catherine Kennedy
1848 Newtownards
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1848/09356/5388140.pdf
Death of Catherine (Kennedy) McWhinney in 1883 Newtownards
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1883/06356/4823821.pdf
(Her age must be wrong, if she was full age when married in 1848, she was more probably mid to late 50s)
2nd marriage for widower George McWhinney to widow Margaret Kirk, previously widow Margaret Harvey, nee McKibbin
1885 Newtownards
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1885/10866/5968199.pdf
2nd wife Margaret possibly died in May 1898 Newtownards (age 62) described as weaver’s wife.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1898/05834/4652271.pdf
If this is the correct woman, then her husband George was still alive, but I could not see a death for him. Nor could I see him still alive in the 1901 census in Ireland. Is it possible he moved abroad (to Scotland?) at some time?
A brother for Ellen
Alexander McWhinney (born abt 1853) married 1873 to Sarah Mackey 1873 Newtownards
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1873/11285/8140066.pdf
It looks like Alexander is in Scotland in 1911 census (possible same address as Ellen)
The census record is important to give you more information Ref - 644/3 61/ 9
That is him too with wife in Glasgow in 1881 census in Dale Street - a carpet Weaver. He has a daughter Minnie, born there in 1881.
So perhaps the McWhinney family was back and forward between Scotland and Ireland - definitely worthy of further exploration.
Possibly another sibling worth your further investigation ----
George McWhinnie died in 1903 in Worcester, Massachusetts (age 40) On his death, parents are George McWhinnie and Catherine Kennedy.
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I'll have a try during my work lunch break. Thankfully I've always been interested in family history. My mother (who passed away in 1994), was certain she was related to Miss Kate Cranston of the Cranston Tearooms but before 1994 the Internet wasn't a thing and family tree research was laborious and expensive so she never followed it up. Hence my picking up the baton. My father (who passed away in 2018) was quite knowledgeable and it was he who told me about Ellen McWhinney, although that was as far back as he was able to go from memory.
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Hi All
Please see attached a snippet of My Great Grandfather Georges marriage cert, as mentioned, I can't make out if its Sailor or Tailor..
J
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Sorry, my Great Grandfather Eli's brother George I should have said.
J
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This is the census return for William Webb who was born in Holcolme. it seems his father is no longer on the scene and that Eliza (known as Webb on his birth details/0 seems to now be knows as Eliza Langley. Does it say she was born in Wales?
J
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Hi All
Please see attached a snippet of My Great Grandfather Georges marriage cert, as mentioned, I can't make out if its Sailor or Tailor..
J
You can see the difference by comparing it with the S in Street
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This is the census return for William Webb who was born in Holcolme. it seems his father is no longer on the scene and that Eliza (known as Webb on his birth details/0 seems to now be knows as Eliza Langley. Does it say she was born in Wales?
We all have access to this census, (no need to post), but there is NO evidence yet that this family has any connection to your William Webb. The birth certificates of the two boys, Eli and George, should give you information about him. At the moment, the tiny bit of information you have is conflicting.
Please post the marriage certificate for Helen Webb (Ellen), and the 1911 census for her.
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Hi Neale1961
Please see marriage cert attached, part 1 and 2 of 1911 census to follow.
J
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Hi there
Now census 1911 details.
J
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1911 census part 1
J
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So you now have confirmed that Ellen McWhinney was born in Ireland in about 1851, and her brother Alexander, about 2 years later. She made herself younger when she married a much younger man, Henry McLeod, who must be the brother of the ”boarder” from the 1911 census.
We can safely assume that Ellen’s birth place was Newtownards, County Down, since her parents married there, her mother died there, and she and Alexander married there. By the way, Alexander died in 1921 in Ireland.
In reply 22, I posted a large amount of information and leads about the McWhinney family for you to research further as you wish.
I should add, there is also a Jane McWhinney who is a witness at Ellen’s marriage – maybe a sister, that you could follow up on too.
It is interesting to note that at the wedding of Ellen to Henry McLeod (1916), and at the wedding of George Henry Webb (1904), there are no McWhinney or Webb family members recorded as witnesses. I have not seen Eli’s marriage certificate, so I don’t know who the witnesses were.
(It is worth noting witnesses and informants on documents as they very often provide valuable family information.)
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Regarding William Webb. The only definitive information you have is that he was a soldier when he married in 1873, and his father was named Thomas.
You cannot be sure which army regiment (or regiments) he was with at any specific time; I have not found any military records for him.
You don’t know when or where he was born; you don’t know when or where he died. Also, he has unfortunately, a very common name.
The information given by his 2 sons when they married, about their father, is conflicting, and may not be accurate.
If you want to progress further, you would now look at the 1877 birth certificate for George Henry WEBB, as any information provided about the father William and his occupation may give you better direction.
I do suspect George was being fanciful when he says his father was a "tailor" – but maybe there was some grain of truth?
From the records, George Webb appears to have quite an extensive military career, and he must have joined the army when still a teenager.
• 1st battalion Queens Own Cameron Highlanders 1641 Sudan, Africa (1896-1899) & then transferred to 1st battalion Welsh Regiment, Cairo
• 2nd battalion Seaforth Highlanders 4693 Boer War (1899-1902)
• WW1 - Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers D5797594 Lieut / A Cpt
Eli Webb, before joining up again in 1914 with the Highland Light Infantry, had at some time spent 4 yrs with LRV, and 4 yrs with the Cameronians (7th Scottish Rifles).
Eli’s and George’s time in the military is worthy of note. For George it explains why he doesn’t appear in the England / Scotland census in 1901. The fact that neither are findable in the 1881 census (as young boys) is curious. Possible explanations would be that the family was either abroad with their father on military exploits, or had returned to Ireland with their mother.
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William Webb does seem to be a bit of a dead end. I will keep trying. To get my Great Grand Uncle George's birth certificate, I take it I would need to sign up for the English equivalent of Scotland's People?
J
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William Webb does seem to be a bit of a dead end. I will keep trying. To get my Great Grand Uncle George's birth certificate, I take it I would need to sign up for the English equivalent of Scotland's People?
See my reply 14.
Register and Log in for free to https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/
Straightforward there after to order the correct birth rego, details as I have already posted.
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Hi Neale1961
I'll have a go at my lunch break. My Great Grandfather Eli was born I beleive in Alderney, Channel islands, would his details potentially be there also or do the Channel Islands have a different set up?
J
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Yes. Different for the Channel Islands - not so straightforward. As it is your direct ancestor, worth pursuing.
Details posted in my reply #14 on this thread.
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With my Great Grandfather born in the Channel Islands and his brother born in Dover, his Mother living in Calton, East end of Glasgow etc, it definitely seems to sound like the life of a military family, moving from a to b due to perhaps their father's deployment. I'm just spit balling to be fair. I'll have a look into it in more detail at my lunch break.
J
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…. it definitely seems to sound like the life of a military family, moving from a to b due to perhaps their father's deployment.
Yes, I agree. However, most military men moved quite a lot between various regiments, so I am hoping the boy’s birth certificates might be helpful and reference the regiment.
As there don’t appear to have been any other children (at least I haven’t found any, at a time when Ellen would have been in her prime child-bearing years), one wonders if William died relatively young.
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See the GenUki page for Alderney. https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/CHI/ALD
Note that Alderney is part of the Bailiwick of Guernsey and so much of the Guernsey page is relevant.
Church records
The Church of St Anne (Anglican): Baptisms 1662-1902 with annotations copied from an earlier (missing) book commenced in 1628. 1902 to present day in Church only. Deaths from drowning and Burials 1652 to 1863. Succeeding Registers lost during the Occupation.
Catholic Church of St Anne & St Mary Magdalene: Baptisms March 1849-Oct 1952. Deaths January 1859 to April 1940 and two entries in 1946. Marriages from February 1852 to July 1924.
The Priaulx Library, in Guernsey, have photocopies of Baptisms 1822-1832, Private Baptisms 1819-1821. Burials 1809-1812, 1853-59. Marriages 1841-1886 .
Civil Registration
Births, Deaths from 1850, Marriages from 1886
Try Alderney Court Office
https://courtofalderney.gg/article/159869/Searching-the-Registers
Contact details for all enquiries:
Postal Address: Court Office, Queen Elizabeth II Street, Alderney GY9 3TB
Email Address: Court@Alderney.gov.gg
Telephone number: +44 (0)1481 820050
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The 1877 birth of son George, is the last we know of William Webb, so that is why it is important to look at it, to see if there is information to guide further research.
It is available for instant download for only £3.
WEBB, GEORGE HENRY Mother - MCWHINNEY
GRO Reference: 1877 M Quarter in DOVER Volume 02A Page 951
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Hi Neale1961
Please see below, birth certificate for my Great Grand Uncle George Henry Webb. I'm not much clearer, it seems they were living in Dover, seems likley that his father was the same man who deserted in Dover?
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As you mentioned Neale1961, It was a William Webb, 6th of foot who deserted in Dover and it would seem my Great Great Grandfather was a William George Webb, 6th of foot who was living in Dover in 1877. It seems very likely they are one and the same man? Which would mean that the William Webb, born in Holcolme in Somerset would be our guy?
J
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I'm not much clearer, it seems they were living in Dover, seems likley that his father was the same man who deserted in Dover?
Welcome back JacobusV ! I thought you might have deserted. :)
That birth cert. is an important primary source document. The information on it came directly from William Webb, the father.
It confirms his name as “William George Webb”.
It confirms he was with the 6th foot regiment.
It places William George Webb with that regiment in 1877 in Dover. (There has been a military garrison in Dover for many hundreds of years.)
Yes, it does seem quite probable now that the man who deserted from there in 1877 was your “man”.
We can now move forward - really exciting!
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Not deserted, being Dad to a 6 and 8 year old with a partner in the medical profession lol.
J
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It is exciting, it now reveals I also have English and potentially Welsh blood. If Eliza Langley is anything to go by.
J
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William Webb Regiment number 1919, born abt 1850 Holcombe Somerset
Deserted at Dover from 6th foot regiment on 3 Oct 1877
If we consider the deserter William, then this is his baptism.
William Webb baptised 25 Jan 1852 Holcombe Somerset
Parents Thomas Webb (agricultural labourer) and Eliza
His birth registration however records his name as “William George”.
Birth registration (available for £3 digital download)
WEBB, WILLIAM GEORGE Mother’s maiden name MOOR
GRO Reference: 1852 M Quarter in SHEPTON MALLET Volume 05C Page 607
His sister Priscilla Webb born 1847, registered SHEPTON MALLET (mother Moor)
She was baptised 19 Mar 1848 Holcombe Somerset.
It is a rather complicated family because both William’s mother and his father had previous marriages, and numerous children to their first marriages. So William had many half-siblings as well as his sister.
Hopefully you can follow the family as I outline in my next posts below ……………
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The WEBB family (1 year before William George was born)
• 1851 census Holcombe, Edford Green.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SGGG-WF8?lang=en
• 1861 census William Webb age 9, with mother Eliza, and his sister and ½ sisters living in Shepton Mallet.
• Thomas Webb (the father) is in 1861 census - working away from home.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M7NZ-TLJ?lang=en
Thomas WEBB (the father) was buried 25 March 1863 Holcombe (age 66)
Therefore, young William George was about 11 years old when his father died.
• 1871 census mother Eliza Webb is in Walcot with some daughters – no sign of son William.
(I suspect son William George joined the military sometime before 1871 – perhaps at age 18, or earlier if he lied about his age when he enlisted)
• 1881 census mother Eliza Webb is in Walcot, with daughter Caroline
• 1891 census mother Eliza Webb is in Lyncombe and Widcombe, with daughter Caroline
• Death for Eliza Webb registered in Bath 1892 (age 78)
William’s mother Eliza MOOR (MOORE) married Thomas LANGLEY in 1828 Kilmersdon, Somerset.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58185e51e93790eb7fabb91b/eliza-moore-thomas-langley-marriage-somerset-kilmersdon-1828-05-25?locale=en
Her husband Thomas Langley died Feb 1840 in Holcombe.
- Langley children:- James 1828, William 1831- 1832 , Israel 1833, Eliza 1841, Caroline 1842 (illegitimate).
Widow Eliza LANGLEY (nee Moore) married widower Thomas WEBB in 1847 Holcombe.
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/67f06affb18f7ce2197a2cb8/eliza-langley-thomas-webb-marriage-somerset-holcombe-1847-08-08?locale=en
Thomas WEBB had previously married Sarah NORMAN in 1816
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5818591fe93790eb7fa21c6d/sarah-norman-thomas-webb-marriage-somerset-chilcompton-1816-11-18?locale=en
His wife Sarah died (age 45) in Holcombe 1842
They had a very big family :– James 1819, Ann 1821, Joseph 1823, Mary 1825, John 1827, Thomas 1830, Sarah 1832, Richard 1835, Dorcas 1836.
1841 census https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQ14-GCT?lang=en
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Taking both family lines back a bit further ---------
Eliza Webb / Langley / nee MOORE baptism 17 Mar 1811 Kilmersdon Somerset
- Her father Enoch MOORE a coal miner and mother Betty LANGLEY (married 1798)
- Enoch Moore burial 4 Dec 1825 Kilmersdon, age 52
- Enoch Moore baptised 1776 Kilmersdon, son of William MOORE and Dianna nee DOORE (married 1775)
(In the Moore family there seems to be some use of the old biblical names like Enoch, Israel, Abraham, Isaac, etc. Perhaps this is where the name Eli comes from?)
Enoch MOORE married Betty LANGLEY 1798 Kilmersdon
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/58185e40e93790eb7fab922a/betty-langly-enoch-moor-marriage-somerset-kilmersdon-1798-06-11?locale=en
Children of Enoch and Betty MOOR:-
Baptised Kilmersdon: Sarah 1798, Hester 1801, Diana 1803, Elizabeth 1805, Abraham 1808, Eliza 1811, Caroline 1815-1818
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Thomas WEBB baptised 27 Apr 1796 Holcombe to parents Benjamin and Ann WEBB
– Benjamin Webb of Cranmore and widow Ann Sperring were married 1792 in Holcombe.
[Ann may have been Ann COTTLE who married in 1784, a James Sperring.]
- Benj and Ann are in 1841 census in Holcombe. He is a publican of the Edford Inn.
- Benjamin died in 1842 in Holcombe, age 79. Burial 30 Aug 1842 in West Cranmore which was his home parish.
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Really appreciate your help Neale1961, this really is a brick wall buster!
J
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Regards the biblical names, it's echoed down the years, my fathers brothers were called Samuel and Eli, my own sons are called Samuel and Noah.
Funny how trends in families can echo through the ages.
J
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If you are looking to further your research into the Webb family, there are some records at the Somerset Archives.
The Will of Benjamin would be useful to follow family relationships.
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POSTING CORRECTIONS to reply #48 (07 April 25) regarding census records & death of Eliza.
• 1871 census mother Eliza Webb is Shepton Mallet with daughter Priscilla now married to William SANSOM – no sign of son William.
(I suspect son William George joined the military sometime before 1871 – perhaps at age 18, or earlier if he lied about his age when he enlisted)
• 1881 census mother Eliza Webb is in Shepton Mallet with Priscilla.
• Possible death for Eliza Webb registered in Shepton Mallet (age 79) in 1884.
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Thanks Neale1961, interested to explore my Great Grandfather Eli's Military career. You pointed out that he was in 2 other regiments, I beleive the Cameronians and the LRV?
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There are various military records for Eli on Ancestry. Each one gives information about slightly different aspects of his military service, so it is important to collect and read ALL of them.
You are lucky that Eli's WW1 service records still exist. Although a little burnt around the edges, it is possible to read most of it. It contains the most useful and interesting details.
If you want to know more about where, when and how Eli lost his life in December 1914, then his battalion's war diary is a good place to start. I have had a read of it today, and it gives some detail regarding the battle at Givenchy, where the battalion suffered a huge loss (about 50% was wiped out), including the life of your ancestor.
Let me know how you get on.
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Hi Neale1961
Thanks for that, I had a quick look inline and found the below:
previous service 4 yrs 3 mths with LRV and 4 years 7 mths with Ser***** Rif, then the paper is burnt
Terms of war service from 17.9.1914
posted 2.12.1914 (to the Persian Gulf Area I suspect as death papers issued 3rd Echelon, HQ Persian Gulf)
Reported Missing 1.1.1915
Regarded as having died 19.12.1914
Could the orders for Givenchy been given from the Persian Gulf at the time?
J
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Yes, you have found one of several documents. It really deserves and needs more than a “quick look” to read and understand all information contained in the documents.
Thanks for that, I had a quick look inline and found the below:
previous service 4 yrs 3 mths with LRV and 4 years 7 mths with Ser***** Rif, then the paper is burnt
For example, his previous service says-
4 yrs with 3rd LRV
4 yrs with 7th Scottish Rifles
Could the orders for Givenchy been given from the Persian Gulf at the time?
No
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Hi Neale1961
I've been trying to explore what may have happened to my Great Great Grandfather William George Webb after he deserted. There was a family rumour that he was in the royal marines, however, I found an interesting extract below:
Name: William Webb
Name Note: Crew
Sex: Male
Age: 26
Birth Date (Estimated): 1854
Occupation: AB
Event Type: Death
Event Date: 8 Nov 1880
Event Place: United Kingdom
Event Place (Original): Merchant Marine, At Sea, Great Britain
Event Place Note: This event happened while the deceased was travelling aboard a sea vessel (Name of Ship Henry Palmer)
There seems to be no record if him and it also seems he abandoned his wife an family as they turn up in Bridgeton Glasgow in the 1890's a a dispirate family, with both Eli and George in the army and Ellen MaWhinney alone bar a lodger. The Eli turns up as a barber in Bridgeton.
J
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I've searched online for a vessel called "Henry Palmer" but come up with nothing so far.
J
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There are many shipping-related hits in newspapers for the vessel Henry Palmer. For example:
Lloyd's List 24th November 1879
HOLYHEAD
Henry Palmer arrived from Quebec for Isle of Man
Added: another item refers to her as “barque, of Maryport”
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I read the information on the "Henry Palmer". It seems it was lost due to an accident at sea 8th November 1880, same day William Webb died.
J
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Your William George Webb was born late 1851 or early 1852 (Have you got his birth certificate to verify d.o.b. yet?)
He was with the 6th Regiment of Foot – you have primary source confirmation of this fact.
There were 7 crew members lost with the ship “Henry Palmer”. One was William Webb an able seaman with the Merchant Marine. William Webb is a common name.
The Merchant Marine is not the Royal Marine.
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Hi,
Could this be Ellen, Eli and George in 1891?
35 Newhall Street, Glasgow Barony, Bridgeton, Lanarkshire
James BARRETT Head Mar 32 Sawmill labourer Ireland
Ellen BARRETT Wife Mar 36 Ireland
Eli Welb BARRETT Son 16 Barber Channel Islands
George Welb BARRETT Son 14 Brushworker England
Mary FINDALY Boarder 19 Reeler Ireland
Maria FINDALY Boarder 17 Reeler Ireland
Maggie MCKENDRICK Visitor Mar 28 Glasgow
Flora MCKENDRICK Visitor 7 Scholar Glasgow
I can't see the image to see if the transcription is correct but it looks interesting.
Regards,
Daisy
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Ooooh, Daisy!, that does look very good.
Needs further investigation.
Transcription on Scotlands People has Eli Webb Barrett, George Webb Barrett, etc.
Ages, places of birth, and occupation for Eli all fit.
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In the 1901 census 68 Main St, Calton, Lanarkshire
Ellen and James are still living together as a "married couple", with Ellen’s father.
• James Burratt 42 Head, Born Ireland , labourer
• Ellen Burratt 46 wife, Born Ireland, Sewing machinist
• Geo McWhinnay 64 Father-in-law, Born Ireland
• Liza Brown 29 visitor, Born Ireland, cotton drawer
By 1911 census, Ellen is back to using her WEBB surname, so James must have moved on.
No evidence that James and Ellen ever married, and no children born to them.
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Possibly death cert for Ellen’s father, George McWhinney (age 68)
1907 Bridgeton
ref 644 / 1 / 968
Mother - Johnston
(The age is wrong, as we have his marriage in 1848, but that is not unusual for death certs.)
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Hi all, very interesting and perhaps fills in the blanks between them all living in Dover, then suddenly appearing in Glasgow/Bridgeton. Likley we will never know the finer details. Thanks for all the help. I have passed the information to some of my Webb cousins who were equally as fascinated.
J
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Hello,
I was reading your thread and my family are the Webbs from Bridgeton. My Dad is Eli Webb and so is my Grandfather. The Eli Webb you are speaking of who was from the Channel Islands is also my dads great grandfather. May I ask who your father is?
Many Thanks,
Lucy Webb.
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Hi,
I found this newspaper clipping which seeem to confirm all the information that has been found.
William WEBB's half-sister Eliza LANGLEY married Eli WHADON in 1862, this makes Eli WHADON Eli WEBB's uncle.
Regards, Daisy
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I also found a newspaper picture of Eli WEBB after he went missing, how hard it must have been.
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Hi Lucy
My Father was your Grandad Eli's first cousin Jimmy who lived at 10 Kirkpatrick street in Bridgeton. I beleive we've spoken before on Ancestry.com
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I found this newspaper clipping which seeem to confirm all the information that has been found.
William WEBB's half-sister Eliza LANGLEY married Eli WHADON in 1862, this makes Eli WHADON Eli WEBB's uncle.
Daisy, An interesting newspaper article. It ties things together nicely, but then poses more questions.
We can only speculate …..
The Webb family was last in contact with Uncle Eli Weadan and his wife Eliza Langley in 1877 when they were living in Bristol. William Webb deserted from the army in 1877 – so did the family seek refuge with William Weadan and Eliza for a short time then?
Why try to make contact 14 years later in 1891? Was it simply to let them know that the Webbs were living in Scotland? Must have been more important than that. Was it to let Eliza Weadan know that her brother, William Webb had died?
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Hi
Being a member of Ancestry and having done a DNA test, when I added the Langley and other Webbs on my tree a whole load of relatives started to show up on my tree with DNA matches, it seems there are still a lot of relatives living in or around the Holcombe area as well as Monmouthshire.
J
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Yes Jacobus, I'm sure there is plenty more to research and interesting things to discover about the Webbs and Langleys of Somerset.
Maybe LucyWebb, your relative, will be interested too.
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Maybe Eli didn't want to live in Scotland with his mother and James BARRATT and hoped he could go and live with the WHEDON's. I wish we could find them in 1881, I'm wondering if Eliza left William rather than him leaving her.
Daisy
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I have tried all sorts of options to find them in the 1881 census, but nothing. :'(
I wonder if they went to Ireland to be with Ellen’s parents for a while.
There were no more children after George in 1877, so I suspect that Ellen and William may not have spent much time together.
I don’t think Eli would really remember his Uncle and Aunt Weadon from 1877. He would have been just a wee three year old. There must have been some reason that the Webb family wanted to make contact after such a long time. We know that Ellen couldn't write, so perhaps Eli was making contact on behalf of his mother.
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It could have been the case that being the wife of a soldier with two young children was too much to bear and they parted. I believe it's likley not unheard of, even nowadays.
J
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I have been in touch with Lucy, she is my father's first cousins granddaughter. My Great Grandfather Eli is her great great grandfather.
J
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There is another mystery connected to the Webbs that I'm keen to explore as well. My Great Grandfathers wife was a Jessie Hill. Her Mother was a Jessie Anne Mcgregor, she was born in Perth, as was her father Robert Mcgregor, born in Perth, Scotland 13th July 1838. His ancestry is a point of contention, some beleive he is a descendent of John Murray Mcgregor 5th Cheif of the Children of the mist, 1st of Glencarnoch. This is a pretty juicy one to get my teeth into.
J