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Research in Other Countries => Immigrants & Emigrants - General => Topic started by: seeds ltd on Thursday 20 March 25 10:02 GMT (UK)
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Hi, I have a Horace Grundry b Clun Shropshire Dec 1883, m 1903 Atcham, joined Army Sept 1914 Foot Police, left May 1917 (sick) then no more records
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Most records have the name as Gundry.
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This is a bit of a mystery.
Wife Alice L Gundry describes her condition as married in the 1921 census; and yet she seems to be in receipt of a widow's pension from the War Office in 1920 per pension records; and other pension records record his widow as Maud L Gundry in Boulder City, Western Australia in 1932.
https://www.corpsofmilitarypolice.org/soldier/8106/
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Maud Lilian Gundry was the widow of Horace John Gundry who died in 1932
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/62676/images/62676_324054001285_0392-00033
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There are 2 Horace Gundry's (NO MIDDLE NAME) the one i am look at DID NOT GO TO AUS
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Newspaper snippet announcement of death of Mrs Alice Gundry, 1940, Shrewsbury.
“ Her husband, the late | was a gold mining”
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Here's that 1940 clip
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/ac2b2b54-56cb-409f-934d-76a04a993049
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Thanks Shaun
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So Alice's husband was a gold miner. So was the one who died in WA in 1932. Were they one and the same?
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Horace John and Maud Lilian Gundry are in Kent in the 1921 census. He is a mining engineer from Kalgoorlie. So definitely not the right Horace!
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F04261%2F0411&parentid=GBC%2F1921%2FRG15%2F04261%2F0411%2F02
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Just found him leaving Liverpool on 11 Dec 1918 for Seccondee, Ghana, West Africa (gold mining)
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There are 2 Horace Gundry's (NO MIDDLE NAME) the one i am look at DID NOT GO TO AUS
If he isn't the same person then why did the WA family make a claim on his pension?
GUNDRY Horace - 3839 Military Foot Police [also served as 10574 Scots Guards] [dependant's claim]
Contents date range: 1932 - 1933
Series number: PP2/11
Title: British pension files, 1914/18 War, single number series with 'BP' prefix [includes pre-World War 1 pensioners & some Boer War pensioners, both British and Australian]
Accumulation dates: 01 Jul 1920 -
Contents dates: 1901 - 1985
Agency/person recording: 01 Jul 1920 - 05 Oct 1976
CA 880, Deputy Commissioner of Repatriation, Western Australia
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/SearchScreens/BasicSearch.aspx
There is no birth registration for a Horace GUNDRY in Western Australia.
Debra :)
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Horace was b in Clun Shropshire Dec 1883, have no idea why there was a claim, could it be that after he left UK his wife had no money
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It does seem quite a coincidence to have two Horace Gundrys of the same age who were both gold mining engineers, and two wives claiming army pensions in respect of the same military policeman. Was he leading a double life?
https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/DetailsReports/ItemDetail.aspx?Barcode=30814130&isAv=N
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Do you have his signature from his marriage to Alice (or any other document)?
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It is interesting in 1911, 1921 & 1939 Alice described herself as married
And at wedding of Doris Lilian https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/ebef04fb-f527-488c-bd9a-2beccc9ad9c4
Horace is implied to be living in Shrewsbury although he didn’t give Doris away.
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Just found him leaving Liverpool on 11 Dec 1918 for Seccondee, Ghana, West Africa (gold mining)
Is he definitely your Horace Gundry?
There is a Liverpool arrival - Horace Gundry, 16th July 1918 , on the Buruta ship from Sekondi.
Address shown is 21 High Street, Willesden Green
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FindMyPast has the document recording the transfer from the Scots Guard to the Military Police
there are two addresses - the first for his wife Alice 20 Pennerley Rd, Minsterly, nr Shrewsbury, Salop
then there is a second address that looks like - Brishing Mill, Boughton-Am-Money, Maidstone, Kent
on the ship (Osterley) to Australia in October 1921 Maud Lilian Gundry gave birth to a daughter. Joan Osterley Gundry
The address recorded on the ships record of births is Bushing Hill, Boughton, Maidstone Kent.
record set on Ancestry
UK, Registers and Indexes of Births, Marriages and Deaths of Passengers and Seamen at Sea, 1891-1922
(address at 1921 is Brishing Hill, Broughton Monchelsea)
Seems to me that that, coupled with the pension record shows it is the same man.
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Seems to me that that, coupled with the pension record shows it is the same man
Good find ! The evidence is stacking up. I wish I could modify my earlier comment about the 1921 census.
The Kalgoorlie electoral registers in the 1920s include several Gundrys. Cousins possibly?
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Under the misspelling-
GUNDAY Horace John
Age 45
Father UNKNOWN
Mother UNKNOWN
At Kalgoorlie
East Coolgardie 1800157 1932
I wonder if the parents Not Known was a judicious choice by Maud.
Perhaps the death certificate would show many columns UNKNOWN .
I notice there is a son named Edgar to this couple.
https://www.ancestry.com.au/mediaui-viewer/tree/176693347/person/152293350964/media/fb322171-0684-4b0e-b3d8-a76cb43336fe
The UK 1891 census shows one young Horace GUNDRY with brother Edgar.
Sue
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I wonder what the marriage certificate says. You would think Maud would have had that, to at least enter a father.
Marriages Mar 1917 (>99%)
Grundy Horace J Hollands Tonbridge 2a 1375
Hollands Lilian M Grundy Tonbridge 2a 1375
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As mentioned by ShaunJ
Among other very relevant information on census 1921. Maud and Horace. Kent.
(the r is omitted in the Ancestry transcription listing)
Horace gives his age which tallies with his age at death.
2 young children to the couple match the names of children mentioned in the WA death notice.
There is a reference to work in Africa
There is Horace's signature for any possible comparison.
Sue
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I wonder what the marriage certificate says. You would think Maud would have had that, to at least enter a father.
Marriages Mar 1917 (>99%)
Grundy Horace J Hollands Tonbridge 2a 1375
Hollands Lilian M Grundy Tonbridge 2a 1375
Here is one I made earlier ;D
https://postimg.cc/T5WQKGWq
Debra :)
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Thank you
;D
Hmm. Australian Mounted Police. ??
John the miner is ok. Although haven’t seen him with William added before.
That matches the transcript of the marriage to Alice in 1903
Horace Gundry, 22, railway employee of 35 New Street, son of John Gundry, miner; Alice Whittaker, 23, tobacco operative of 35 New Street, daughter of William Whittaker, printer. Witnesses: Thomas Beamond, Annie Knowles
But age at marriage to Maud is out. 29 in 1917 = 1888.
What is Horace John’s address?
And so yes, she did know name of his father and chose not to put it on the death certificate
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Nice to see the MC Debra ;D
His address is Lyons Crescent Tonbridge.
Sue
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Observation....Speculation
When Horace married Maud Feb 1917 he had not been to Australia at all.
He had probable relatives in Kalgoorlie involved in mining and new of them.
He was still in the Army Foot Police at the marriage (quit May 1917)
He invented an occupation which was a bit true (police) and a bit wishful/false in order to obscure his identity. (Mounted police Australia)
In August 1917 he embarked for South Africa from Liverpool. Maud was pregnant.
Horace Verdum William GUNDRY. Births Sep 1/4 1917
Mother HOLLLANDS
At Orsett
4a 886
He returned to father another child and in 1921 they all set of for Western Australia to make use of his mining experience.
How his "first wife" Alice knew of his exploits and his mining career is a mystery. But with youngish children to care for, she was not admitting desertion and knew of his whereabouts in order to claim his pension.
My thoughts on the matter for your entertainment ;D
Sue
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Yes, that’s how I see it too.
Not quite sure how Alice was able to say she was a widow (pension card) as there is no record of a death, yet obviously continued to consider herself married (1921 & 1939)
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To OP
Looks like this to me.
As you say-
Horace was born at Clun
Births Dec 1883
Gundry Horace
at Clun 6a /561
As was his brother Edgar
GUNDRY, EDGAR JOSEPH mms HOTCHKISS
1881 J Quarter in CLUN Volume 06A/ 600
Deaths Mar 1886
Emma (nee HOTCHKISS) their mother died
GUNDRY Emma
Aged 32
at Clun
6a/467
Looks like John, the lead miner born in Cornwall then remarried
Marriages Jun 1889
THOMAS Elizabeth
Gundry John
at Clun 6a 1105
1901 census john and wife Elizabeth at Salop.
He is a lead miner. Born Cornwal.
Sue
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Wow, all so interesting, i still think my Horace (b Dec 1883) did not go to Aus, just dug out a second wedding for Alice May Erskine nee Gundry 1931 it states that her father Horace was deceased. So could not have gone to Aus & died 1932
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It may well be that Alice kept up the story that Horace was deceased etc and her daughter, Alice May either did not know or was complicit in the story.
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How do you explain away this Shaun posted earlier.
https://www.corpsofmilitarypolice.org/soldier/8106/
And the two addresses on the transfer to the Military police document?
There is a pension document at Australian National Archives you could ask to see which might have more detail and prove something either way.
GUNDRY Horace - 3839 Military Foot Police [also served as 10574 Scots Guards] [dependant's claim]
Contents date range
1932 - 1933
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Do you have his signature from his marriage to Alice (or any other document)?
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This is a bit of a mystery.
Wife Alice L Gundry describes her condition as married in the 1921 census; and yet she seems to be in receipt of a widow's pension from the War Office in 1920 per pension records; and other pension records record his widow as Maud L Gundry in Boulder City, Western Australia in 1932.
https://www.corpsofmilitarypolice.org/soldier/8106/
seeds ltd
The information on marriage certificates is very often false.
People lie about their ages, the present marital status, their occupations and their parent's names.
There was no requirement in the document format to state whether the partiy's parents were dead or living.
It seemd to be left to individual clergy whether or not it was mentioned.
Social face-saving played a part here.
I wonder if the "seven year rule" played any part in the story from Alice's (nee Whittaker) pension claim.
Horace joined the Army Police Force in 1914 and had possibly been estranged from his wife for a time before that.
The "rule " goes along the lines that if there has been no contact between spouses for 7 years and their whereabouts is uncertain it may be presumed they are dead.
This left each free to marry again and, in this case, free to claim any monies or benefits due.
Of course she may still use the term married to describe her status if she chose.
I think the police pension office was completely confused by this situation!!
Do others have thoughts on this
Sue