RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: JacobusV on Monday 17 March 25 13:53 GMT (UK)
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Hi there
I am new to this site so please bear with me. My Great Great Great Grandmother was a Sarah McKenzie, born around 1823 in a town on Fife, Scotland called Burntisland. She is a significant "brick wall" ancestor. I discovered that there was another Sarah MacKenzie and for a while I thought se he and my ancestor were one and the same person, which sent me on a bit of a wild goose chase. I can't find any records on Scotlands People website for her. Is there anyone on here who may be connected to her or anyone who could suggest how to break through this stubborn brick wall?
J
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Hello and welcome.
Have you got her on the 1841 census?
Bev
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Welcome to Rootschat
Some questions 🤔
Who - when & where did she marry?
When did she die? If she died in Scotland after 1855 her parents names should be on her death cert plus her mothers maiden name.
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The only McKenzie I see on Freecen who was born in Burntisland is a William (1826) Who was in Dunbartonshire in 1851.
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Hi all, apologies, it seems she was born in Leslie in Fife and not Burntisland. She married my 3 times great grandfather, John C Turpie.
J
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The only census entry for a Sarah b Burntisland is Sarah King b 1822 nee Monroe
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Hi,
Welcome to RootsChat :)
Please can you tell us which Sarah McKENZIE is the wrong one so that we don't follow you on your wild goose chase :)
Regards,
Daisy
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Sarah McKenzie, born in Dysart to Kenneth McKenzie and Mary Herbert is the Wrong Sarah.
Sarah McKenzie bort in Leslie, Fife around 1825 and lived in Kinghorn, Fife in the 1861 census is the correct Sarah who married John C Turpie and is my 3 times Great Grandmother.
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Hi,
If I'm looking at the right TURPIE family then in 1861,1871,1881and 1891 Sarah says she was born in Leslie but in 1851 and 1901 Sarah says she was born in Ireland. I wonder if this could be her famly in 1841?
https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tq0/
Sally can be a pet name for Sarah.
Daisy
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Possible death - Sarah Turpie/ Sarah McKenzie died in Bo’ness in 1906.
Her death certificate available from Scotlands People will give her parents names, as remembered by the informant.
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The marriage banns for the Turpie to McKenzie wedding were read in both Scoonie and Wemyss.
The banns will tell you who came from which parish.
This looks like John living in Scoonie for the 1841 census.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14a1d6f4040b9d6e9f2197/john-turpie-1841-fife-scoonie-1826-?locale=en
His parents were John Turpie and Christian Duncan, married 1806 in Kennoway.
The 1841 census in Wemyss link provided by Daisypetal looks promising for Sarah / Sally.
1851 census for same family
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14abbaf4040b9d6eaa33b8/samuel-mckenzie-1851-fife-wemyss-1784-?locale=en
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Hi
That's interesting. I'm aware that there was a certain stigma, even then of saying you were born in Ireland. It could be possible that they were.
Am I right in saying that the freecel information is saying that those McKenzies lived in Wemyss district in Fife but were all born in Ireland?
J
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........ those McKenzies lived in Wemyss district in Fife but were all born in Ireland?
Yes, that is correct.
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As far as I can see, the parents were Samuel McKENZIE and Jane / Jean MCLAUCHLAN.
One of their earliest born children appears to have been Daniel, born abt 1809 in county Antrim.
He was married to Catharine Miller, and he died in 1864.
1851 census for Daniel and family.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14ab63f4040b9d6ea9d7bd/daniel-mckenzie-1851-fife-markinch-1809-?locale=en
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If I'm right, due to the Irish records all mostly being destroyed during the Irish Civil War in the 1920s, I'll struggle to go back any farther? I have Irish family on my father's side and my research on them pretty much came to a dead stop. This is very helpful though as the McKenzie side of my Mum's fily were a significant brick wall. Thank you, it's very much appreciated.
J
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Hi Neale1961
The information was initially useful, however I decided to look at Scotland's People as, someone earlier in the chat suggested I look at death records (something I admit hadn't occurred as I spend most of my time looking at births). Her death record said her father was a John McKenzie and her mother's name on the record was unfortunately illegible. No idea who John McKenzie was so the search goes on.
Cheers
J
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It may be worth you posting a snippet of the mother’s name on that death certificate on the deciphering boards in case someone can make sense of it. I presume the certificate is all in the same handwriting so it would be an idea to show enough of it to give people something to compare it with.
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If I'm right, due to the Irish records all mostly being destroyed during the Irish Civil War in the 1920s, I'll struggle to go back any farther? I have Irish family on my father's side and my research on them pretty much came to a dead stop. This is very helpful though as the McKenzie side of my Mum's fily were a significant brick wall. Thank you, it's very much appreciated.
J
It is a widespread myth that all the Irish records were destroyed. For searching in Ireland you need to be very aware of your ancestor's religion and if possible the region that they may have come from in Ireland, if you have a Townland, so much the better. There are a number of searching aids in Ireland some of which are useful census substitutes.
Here are some links
Irish Genealogy https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/
1901/1911 census with fragments dating back to the early 1820s https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/
This guy has put togther a list of resources covering mainly Co Londonderry
https://www.billmacafee.com/
and Lindel has done the same for Co Donegal
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01tq5/
ETA:
The names that Neale1961 has found, McKenzie and McLauchlan, can be found in the north. McLauchlan is often spelt McLoughlin in Ireland. Scots people came over, particularly to the north as part of what was called The Plantation.
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If you post the death cert. we may be able to help read the names.
Knowing occupations are also important.
Be aware that the information on death certificates is only as reliable as the knowledge or memory of the informant. Where the informant was not a close or well informed relative, information can be wrong or partially wrong.
Who was the informant?
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Have you looked at the wedding banns to see if there is any useful information?
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SS
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Possibly Tarvel.
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SP reckon TURNER?
SS
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I read it as TURNER
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Going to try to have a look at some point for wedding bans on parish registers on Scotland's People tomorrow. Will struggle to get the time today. I do have one other mystery to add in another post about great great grandparents who lived in the same area and at the same time as two people with the exact same names. Difficult to differentiate who are my actual great grandparents and who isn't.
J
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Having now compared the letters with others on the document I would agree Turner
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Perhaps look at these marriage banns in case there is anything more that can be learned about Sarah.
Marriage banns on Scotlands People
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TURPIE JOHN
SARAH MCKENZIE/
23/08/1844
459
60 / 400
Wemyss
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Who was the informant?
Please provide additional detail from the death certificate for those trying to help.
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Perhaps look at these marriage banns in case there is anything more that can be learned about Sarah.
Marriage banns on Scotlands People
.....
TURPIE JOHN
SARAH MCKENZIE/
23/08/1844
459
60 / 400
Wemyss
Out of an abundance of caution could OP confirm that the parents of Sarah shown on the snippet of the death certificate found by SS are the correct ones we should be following and not the 'doppelganger" couple
The parents of Sarah (poss Sally) McKenzie Turpie may be
John McKenzie
Jane Turner
presumably from the death certificate of Sarah?
Both the Scots and the Irish had traditional naming patterns for their children. Have you looked for any siblings of Sarah Mckenzie Turpie ie further children of John McKenzie and Jane Turner McKenzie?
If parents followed the naming conventions these can be used as a rough guide. To use this we need to have the children of John McKenzie and Jane Turner McKenzie in birth date order
One of the Scotland Census records shows that perhaps this family came from County Antrim originally.
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Children that I can find of Sarah McK and John Turpie who married in 1844, randomly from Family Search
Jane Turpie born 1846 apx died 25/5/1863
Christina Turpie born 1847apx marr Archibald Nicholson 23/2/1866 died 8/9/1871
Jessie Turpie born 1851 apx marr John Gloag 30/9/1870
Sarah Turpie born est 1857 died 22/5/1859 or is she this one Sarah Turpie born 4/11/1856 so born 1856 died 1859
Sarah McKenzie Turpie born 6/12/1862 died ??? 7/12/1877
Jane possibly being the first born daughter may have been named for the mother's mother.
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Turpie Children (from census, as there are no baptisms)
Jane
Christian
John
Jessie / Janet
Samuel
Sarah
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Hi all
Sarah McKenzies mother's maiden name was Turner (confirmed from Scotland's People.
J
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Sarah's father John McKenzie seems to have been a weaver. Her husband John Turpie seems to have died on board His Majesty's Ship shieldrake in Bo'ness (unsure if that is the name of the ship as the writing is again illegible).
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Can you please post the death certificate.
It is important to know whether we have the death for the correct person.
I assumed you would have John Turpie’s death certificate. Ŵhen and where did he die?
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Currently at work so will reply ASAP
J
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John Turpie possible death in 1903 in Burntisland. I recommend that you obtain his death certificate.
Without seeing the certificates or knowing exactly ALL detail that is included, it is not really possible to assist.
There is too much guess work currently. Questions from forum helpers are not being answered.
I don’t know what is on Sarah’s certificate, but from what you have said, I now wonder if we have the correct person.
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I can't see the image of the 1841 Scotland census, does it show the relationships of the household? I ask because I know that the England and Wales ones do not. It's possible that the relationships are not what they seem. Samuel might not be the father or married to Jean, and/or the younger members of the household might not all be daughters, they could be other relatives that have come to Scotland for work. Also does it show if the people are married?
I know this seems unlikely after looking at the 1851 census but again, I can't see the image only the transcriptions.
Daisy
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IMO, it is not possible to move forward with this until FULL and COMPLETE information from the death certificates for John Turpie and Sarah Turpie has been posted.
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In answer to Neale1961, apologies for my sporadic replies, I have severe time constraints at the moment through work and family, however I will try to post the death certificates shortly.
I'm very keen to explore the remaining mystery of my family tree and have spent 4 years researching. I just have a bottleneck of issues I'm dealing with which are taking up my usual research time.
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Hi Shanreagh
John Gloag and Jessie Turpie are my 2 times Great Grandparents, their daughter Catherine Gloag Married my Great Grandfather William Cranston. Williams Uncle was Baillie Robert Cranston (a Baillie being high up in local politics) and a first cousin of Sir Robert Cranston, Lord Provost of Edinburgh in the early 1900s and a Co-founder of the Queen Victoria School for children of servicemen in Dunblane.
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Hi there
I tried to attach the death certs of both John and Sarah Turpie to no avail, the site wouldn't let me attach a jpeg or a PFD. keen to get help to further my research. Can someone advise hoe to get the attachments on here?
J
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Various tutorials available. Here is one …..
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/topic,130922.0.html
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Please also be aware that not all boards allow posting of images. double check that before trying
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You may be better typing the information out as there are often restrictions for posting images on to other sites if you have obtained them from one of the pay per view / subscription sites. If this is the case the Mods will remove the images
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Rosie99
That explains it, the info was from Scotland's People. Neale1961, would typing it out suffice for you?
Don't see a work around for it.
J
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more likely the size of your image upload if you have not reduced the jpg size or snipped just the pertinent rows on your screen, where it may be displaying at eg 50% of its resolution.
Allowed file types: txt, rtf, jpg, jpeg, gif, pdf, mpg, png, ged
Restrictions: 4 per post, maximum total size 900KB, maximum individual size 500KB.
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Hi All
Try as I might, it just won't upload so please see the details typed out below:
John Turpie, died March 7th 1903 in Burntisland of Senile Decay, his parents were a John Turpie and Margaret Duncan and his daughter Jessie Turpie was the informant.
Sarah Turpies (McKenzie) death certificate details are as below:
Sarah Turpie, died December 23rd 1906 (the person filling in the record hasn't put the exact location of death in) . However the death was registered in Bo'ness. Death was caused by Hemisphagia (loss of feeling down one side for 10 days, likely a stroke). The informant was her granddaughter Sarah (2nd name is illegible).
I hope this helps?
J
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The other thing that can go wrong with an image upload, in my experience, is that although an upload fails due to size, the name of that image is still somehow recorded by the site and, since duplicate names aren’t allowed when uploading, if your resized image has the same name it will fail again even though the size is now ok.
After resizing I now routinely give my image a new name using hyphenated keywords from the topic, aiming for a unique name.
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SS
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Please type out and post ALL the information from John Turpie’s death certificates. (Or post document)
Do not omit anything.
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FYI Neale1961:
John Turpie, Engine Fireman Married to Sarah McKenzie
died March 7th 11h 55 minutes, Somerville Street, Burntisland, Male, 82 years
Father: John Turpie, Mother: Margaret Duncan both Deceased
Death caused by Senile Decay (can't make out the writing beneath)
Informant: Jessie Turpie Daughter
17 Milton Street, Abbeyhill, Edinburgh
Death registered March 9th at Burntisland (cant read the name of registrar).
J
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The informant was her granddaughter Sarah (2nd name is illegible).
Sarah Tracey.
the person filling in the record hasn't put the exact location of death in
In the box when and where died is "His Majesty's Ship Sheldrake, Bo'ness Roads, Bo'ness."
A strange address for an 88 year old, the ship was sold for breaking/scrap 1907.
https://sites.rootsweb.com/~pbtyc/18-1900/S/04253.html
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Very random for such an old guy to die on board ship, far be it for me to comment on my 2 times Great Grandad, but what's the deal with that?
J
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Very random for such an old guy to die on board ship,
More random as Sarah Turpie was female (widow of John Turpie, Marine Fireman). A Bo'ness Road runs from Bo'ness to Grangemouth, crossing the Avon. Docks in both.
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Apologies, stealing a quick 2 minutes while at work, you are correct, it was Sarah McKenzie who died on board HMS Sheldrake. I didn't read it right.
J
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Re - death certificate for John TURPIE 1903
I think you’ll find there is an error in the naming of his mother. It should be Christian Duncan. John is with his mother Christian in the 1841 census.
John Turpie and Christian Duncan’s marriage is noted earlier in this thread.
It is not surprising that his daughter Jessie could not remember the name of someone who had died before she was born.
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Re - death certificate for Sarah McKENZIE / TURPIE 1906
The mention of the ship Sheldrake on Sarah’s Turpie’s death cert. is indeed odd. There seems to have been several ships with that name, so it’s not clear which one it was, (not that it matters really). It hardly seems likely that Sarah, a widow of 3 yrs, would be living on a ship. Her husband John Turpie had appeared in various census as engine man, steamboat fireman, and later in life as a railway fireman and railway labourer. It is quite possible that his grand-daughter remembered him working on the HMS Sheldrake and that entry on the certificate refers to him, while the address Bo’ness Road refers to Sarah Turpie’s address. I can’t imagine John at the age of 82, with senile decay, still doing the hard physical labour of a steam boat fireman.
The informant on Sarah TURPIE’s death was her granddaughter Sarah GLOAG (born 1871) who had married George TRACEY in 1896. The granddaughter Sarah had spent most of her life in Edinburgh, while her grandparents lived in Kinghorn and Burntisland.
I couldn’t find Sarah Tracey or her husband in the 1901 Scotland census.
One has to ask how reliable she was regarding the names of her grandmother’s parents (her great-grandparents). We have all come across death certificates where the names of parents were wrong, or ended up belonging to a different branch of a related family. I wonder if that may be the case here.
(When I was 30, I would not have been able to tell you my great grandparents’ first names, let alone their maiden surname.)
I would be inclined to still look at the possibility of Sarah McKenzie / Turpie’s parents being Samuel McKENZIE and Jane / Jean MCLAUCHLAN. (as noted in reply #13).
If we consider those names, then, the children of John and Sarah Turpie follow the traditional Scottish naming pattern.
• Jane 1846-1863 (named after mother’s mother)
• Christian / Christina 1847-1871 (named after father’s mother)
• John 1850 -1930 (named after father’s father, and after father)
• Jessie / Janet 1851 - 1915
• Samuel 1864-1913 (named after mother’s father)
• Sarah 1856-1859 (named after mother)
• Sarah 1862-1877 (re-named after mother)
The problem is conflicting information for Sarah on the census.
The 1851 and 1901 census has her born in Ireland, while the 1861-91 census has her born in Leslie.
If born in Scotland, where is she on the 1841 census? No record found.
If born in Ireland, the 1841 census is Wemyss is a good bet, as this is where she married a few years later.
If she didn’t arrive in Scotland until after the 1841 census, why was she in Wemyss? Was she visiting McKenzie relatives there?
If it were my family, and I was trying to solve the puzzle, I would be looking at the marriage banns for Sarah McKenzie and John Turpie on the chance that some other bit of useful information may come to light. I have suggested this several times already during this thread.
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I do have one other mystery to add in another post about great great grandparents who lived in the same area and at the same time as two people with the exact same names. Difficult to differentiate who are my actual great grandparents and who isn't.
J
Jessie TURPIE married 10 Sep 1870 Burntisland, Fife to John GLOAG
Children: – Sarah, Robert, Catherine, Jessie, John, Margaret, Joseph, Christina, Johan, Jane, Lilias.
• John Gloag died in 1897 Newington
• Jessie remarried to John Roberts HALL in 1901 Newington
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The other couple are John GLOAG and Jessie BOAG who married in 1871 in Alloa (Clackmannan), and then emigrated to USA in 1883. No children.
There should be no confusion between the two couples. Quite easy to differentiate between them.
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The HMS Sheldrake that was likely around at the time when Sarah died and John was noted as being a Marine Fireman was most likely this one
'HMS Sheldrake (1889) was a Sharpshooter-class torpedo gunboat launched in 1889 and sold for breaking in 1907' Wiki
Usually, apart from pennant ceremonies (can't remember the correct term) marking the decommissioning of a naval ship, often these ships were alongside for months or years after laying up.
So the ship might have been tied up and looked after by a small crew. if tied up at a wharf there may have been nightwatchmen or firemen assigned to watch over the ship. There may even have been quarters nearby for families. Older men with marine engine knowledge would be useful to have around while a ship was tied up awaiting the wreckers. They could have a role maintaining fire doors, looking after firefighting equipment and general fire watching. Perhaps they may have stayed on board?
To explore this byway we'd need to search where HMS Sheldrake was tied up prior to the death of Sarah and John. If it was along the road mentioned by jon_ni 'A Bo'ness Road runs from Bo'ness to Grangemouth, crossing the Avon. Docks in both' then I think it would be quite possible that Sarah may have stayed on after John's death especially if she had a little house landside in the shipyards.
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John died in Sommerville Street, Burntisland, not Bo’ness.
Same address as 1901 census when he was a railway labourer.
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John died in Sommerville Street, Burntisland, not Bo’ness.
Same address as 1901 census when he was a railway labourer.
Thanks. The ref to HMS Sheldrake must have come from somewhere for a granddaughter to mention it in the registration of the death of her grandmother. Docks, railway workers, marine firemen etc are not mutually exclusive. People seemed to retain their working life occupations.....hence John's as Engine Fireman
However it is likely a byway.
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Could this be Sarah (GLOAG) and George TRACEY living in Surrey, England in 1901?
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9X6-63W?lang=en
Daisy
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Good find, Daisy. Yes that'll be them. I knew George was English, but didn't think of looking for them that far south.
It further illustrates my point that Sarah had never spent much time with her grandmother, and probably didn't know much about her great-grandparents, or their names.
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It's all fascinating. I have a 6 and 8 year old taking u pa lot of my time, but will be back on line to get the Bans information for Sarah and John Turpie on Monday.
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Hi all.
Not much in the parish register, only this one below:
Turpie/McKenzie: John Turpie Canvas Weaver in the Parish of Sconie & Sarah McKenzie in Kirkland August 23rd. Then a 2nd note saying:
John Turpie residing in this Parish and Sarah McKenzie residing in the Parish of Wemyss (theirs is more writing but its illegible, it looks like "registered their summary proclamation in order for marriage"
J
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Not much in the parish register, only this one below:
Turpie/McKenzie: John Turpie Canvas Weaver in the Parish of Sconie & Sarah McKenzie in Kirkland August 23rd.
Not much? It contains the crucial bit of information you need.
Kirkland (her abode when married) is also where she is living in the 1841 census.
https://www.freecen.org.uk/search_records/5a14a25ef4040b9d6e9fbc76/sally-mckenzie-1841-fife-wemyss-1821-?locale=en
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Wow, so it was Samuel and Jane after all! So where did the John McKenzie and Jane Turner come from?
J
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So where did the John McKenzie and Jane Turner come from?
As I explained - from an unreliable informant who did not know the names of her great- grandparents.
She had spent very little time around her grandparents, according to the census records.
Unless you are a serious family historian, very few people know the names of their great- grandparents. I tested this on the weekend, and asked my siblings to name their great- grandparents. They had no idea of either first or maiden surnames of great-grandmothers, and knew the obvious surname of only 2 great-grandfathers. Had no idea of their occupations.