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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Creeping_Snail on Friday 14 March 25 21:49 GMT (UK)
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Hello all
Re-starting my family tree research by trying to knock down a brickwall. I would welcome any ideas as to how I could find my Great Grandfather. My Grandfather was illegitimate, birthday always given as 26th July 1889, possibly in Manchester. His birth was not registered and he was not on the 1891 census. No records of his mother having asked for contribution to his upbringing. So a complete dead end. Would a DNA test for me be of any help, and how do I go about it? This is one area I have not yet researched, so would welcome help from anyone who has tried this route. Thanks for reading this.
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If his birth was not registered in 1889, he would be part of a very small % indeed; there's a good chance that it was registered, but under a different name (perhaps the same name he went under by in the 1891 census).
DNA testing could help, yes, although it depends on who else have tested and how many surviving relatives there are. If there are any male-line descendants, Y testing would be useful in this case, but general autosomal testing might yield results too.
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Ancestry has the biggest DNA database so wait for the next DNA sale and purchase one.
Pheno
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If you're looking for an unknown great-grandfather, taking an Ancestry DNA will give you a very good chance of at least getting closer to finding out his identity. I recommend it 100%.
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Welcome to Rootschat
You say his birthdate was "always given" as 26.7.1889. Apart from the 1939 register & possibly his death cert - what other docs show that birthdate?
I am assuming there is no fathers name on his marriage cert.
Is he on the 1911 or 1921 census as that will confirm if his birthplace was Manchester?
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..... and he was not on the 1891 census.
This is probably a good clue that he was not recorded with the surname that he later used.
Debra :)
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Thanks everyone.
Father's name on marriage certificate was given as Thomas Roberts, although Thomas was never married to Joseph's Mother. At the time Joseph was supposedly born, Thomas was with his family in a different county. My Grandpa, Joseph, had to use a Labour certificate as his only form of Id and I know he had a few problems getting his old age pension because his birth wasn't registered. Despite Grandpa knowing he wasn't registered, I still bought several birth certs for a Joseph Roberts in 1889, that I hoped might be him, and searched with his mother's surname with no success, and none of them supported any of the other info I had. There is no DOB on the Death Certificate. Not with his Mother in 1891 and not found with either surname anywhere else. Haven't found him for certain in 1911, Manchester birthplace was given in 1901 and 1921, but place of birth wasn't part of the 1939 register. He had no siblings, neither did my Dad, so there are no surviving ancestors. I spent 20 years trying to find who GreatGrandpa might have been, which is why I am now thinking of DNA. Thanks to those who have given me pointers for the DNA test.
I haven't used Rootschat for 20 years and it's so nice to know it's still full of lovely, helpful people :-*
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If there is a solid connection with Manchester you could try asking the local FHS - <www.mlfhs.org.uk> .
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Thank you, but I've already tried that and multiple other places. It really is an absolute dead end, unless DNA can show otherwise. Having said that, I've looked at Ancestry and I don't think I can justify spending £60, plus registration fees with them - I'd rather give it to my Grandson. Look to the future, rather than the past maybe? :)
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The only Joseph Roberts b 26.7.1889 on the 1939 register is living in Derbyshire & is Joseph Henry - unless your Joseph died before 1939
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Hello
Yes, I found him recently. There were errors in the presentation of the 1939 on Find My Past which have now been corrected. I remember going to that address as a child, fond memories, but no Great Grandpa there !!
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If he is the one in Derbyshire - he was Joseph Henry Roberts
In 1901 he is with parents Thomas & Annie & shown as aged 11 b Manchester
Thomas b 1867 Sandbach occ boilermakers labourer
Annie b 1860 Sheply Yorkshire
In 1891 Thomas is single living with parents which probably means Joseph was Annie’s son
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Thank you - yes. Got all of that. Just wish i knew who his father was, but, as I said in a previous post, maybe I would be better spending money on the next generations, rather than searching for the past? :)
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Have you looked for Annie on the 1891 census or found a marriage to Thomas?
1921 shows her as Joseph Henry’s mother. If you find her maiden name then there is the possibility of finding his birth under that surname
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Hello and thank you for your suggestions.
I have been researching this for over 20 years and believe I have covered most avenues. Annie's surname was Hey, in 1891 she was in Horwich living and working at George Clucard's Coffee Shop. Maybe he was Joseph's father !!!! No mention of Joseph. No Joseph Hey anywhere else that is not accounted for in 1901. She did not marry Thomas Roberts. Grandpa did not have a birth certificate, he knew that, my dad knew that, hence the use of the Labour Certificate as his only known Id. That leaves only DNA. I shall have to start saving up !!
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In the case of illegitimacy you only really have two options (1) find paternity documents (2) a DNA test.
Rather than you spend your own cash, why not suggest to your children that they buy you a kit either for Moms Day or your Birthday or a combination.
Manchester Archive records in the Library in St Peters Square are pretty good if you cannot find anything online.
If you can visit in person all the better and during the week members of Manchester FHS are often on hand to help out.
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Thank you for your suggestions.
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Annie's surname was Hey
Is this one eliminated? :-\
Seems to be a Cheetham registration.
HAYES, JOSEPH HENRY
Mother's Maiden Surname: —
GRO Reference: 1889 S Quarter in PRESTWICH Volume 08D Page 384
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Thanks for the suggestions, but none of the Hayes had the Mother's name as Annie and, if I remember correctly from the census data they were all married families with several children which, unfortunately, does not fit.
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Hi
That one was probably illegitimate, but I don't know who he was.
In the 1891 census in Ardwick there is a Joseph Hay, 1, Nurse Child
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:7CJP-TZM
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Hello and thank you.
I checked that out and on the next census he was with his family, so I had to rule that out. It's also most likely that if Joseph was registered, which the family said he wasn't, it is unlikely that the father's name would be given on the certificate anyway. That's why I gave up about 20 years ago, it's only with the advent of DNA testing that the thought popped into my head again as a possible way of filling the gap. :-)
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There's a Joseph Hay, 1, with parents John and Mary, and his siblings, in Manchester in 1891, and he is with them in 1901, age 11.
I can't say who the nurse child in 1891 is.
Can we be sure that because your grandfather thought there wasn't a birth certificate to be found, that this is actually correct?
Anyway, if you change your mind, and fancy having another stab at finding a birth certificate for him, you can now get them digitally (and instantly) from the GRO for just £3.
John
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His baptism is indexed on FamilySearch, but no image available. Is it online anywhere else? :-\
11 December 1889 at St Peter, Oldham Road, Manchester
Joseph Henry
mother Annie Hey
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F9MH-PXX
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His baptism is indexed on FamilySearch, but no image available. Is it online anywhere else? :-\
11 December 1889 at St Peter, Oldham Road, Manchester
Joseph Henry
mother Annie Hey
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F9MH-PXX
Correct date of birth
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Excellent, mckha, well done.
And the name William as father crossed through. Is that hinting at anything? :-\
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WOW !! I'm speechless! (Doesn't happen often ;) )
You've found something in a few days that I didn't discover in 20 years !! I'm impressed :)
The crossed out name William is fascinating. Give me some time to take this on board and I'll come back to you. Fantastic!
Regards
Andrea
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I would also like to support the idea of a DNA test. My maternal great-grandfather was illegitimate and although I knew who his mother was, I found no documentation about his father. DNA shows that his father was very likely one of two brothers (there was a third brother, too young to have fathered my William). I might never know which one it was, and yes, one was William as well, but I do know their parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents.
My folk lived in a not heavily populated rural area of Sussex, it might be trickier to work it out in a city like Manchester (if it’s a Hibbert let me know, that’s where my paternal lot came from!).
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Thank you Diana. No Hibberts in my line anywhere. :)