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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Donegal => Topic started by: colee on Friday 07 March 25 07:12 GMT (UK)
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Hello
I would love some help with navigating the Irish records, I'm looking for Marie McHugh who I think married a McFadden in Brinlack, then Michaelis Ferry with whom she had a daughter, Catherine (Kitty) Ferry in March 1869. Is it possible to see her and her husband in the census records? He may have had other children by a different woman. Michael may have also been in Scotland then the States.
Many thanks for any help!
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Is this the birth you refer to?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/supp_births/2343692x.pdf
Kate Ferry to parents James and Mary McFadden.
The record would seem to imply though that McFadden was her maiden name.
You must have a parish record as you mention ‘Michaelis’ - latinised name?
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Here is the baptism you have
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631955?locale=en#page/14/mode/1up
I realise the date is a different year
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Yes thank you!
I had the record in Ancestry, I wasn't sure how to get into the book itself, so I took a screenshot but you've beat me to it!
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Just for information as this might be a red herring. Here is James Ferry and Mary McFadden marriage
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11484/8221225.pdf
Note that the witness is Michael Ferry and Mary’s father is Charles McFadden.
Kate Ferry (your baptism record) has a Sponsor Charles McFadden.
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Where do you have the information re the McHugh name?
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So the info I have is from a descendant (I'm doing research for the family) - being that Maria's first husband was a McFadden who died young/early on. Catherine/Kitty's maiden name was apparently McHugh and she was married twice first to a McFadden and then Ferry. So that info is handed down, it's not gleaned from the records.
Catherine/Kitty had a daughter Agnes Quigley.
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Note also that although James Ferry and Mary McFadden lived in Brinlack townland, the marriage was in Gweedore RC Church.
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https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/
The Irish census site here - is changing soon but this works and there is a note on the site.
Lots of Ferrys in Brinlack - also McFaddens,
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Where and when was Agnes Quigley born?
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Brinlack townland
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5543682#map=12/55.0945/-8.1972
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Is this the Quigley family
Marriage of Robert Quigley and Catherine Ferry (father James)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10749/5919825.pdf
Birth of Agnes
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1904/01816/1710806.pdf
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I have Agnes Quigley's death 4 Feb 1960, she was married to Michael Lynch, and that she was born around 1915?
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Seems like there aren't many census records that survived in the 1800s, is that right? So it's pretty hard to get a picture of the different families living in a particular place.
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No there aren’t unfortunately and then, if that is Agnes, you would need to go to
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/services/go-groni-online for later records e.g, Agnes’ death.
That Kate found earlier, is the daughter of James and Mary.
The baptism is a year later with father Michael and Mary McFadden - not McHugh.
I am off out now, so hopefully others will come on to help, who know the area better. Good luck.
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Other sites to look at:
Griffiths Valuation https://www.askaboutireland.ie/griffith-valuation/
Griffiths Valuation local
http://donegalgenealogy.com/tullagv.htm
Other possible resources on that site too.
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Brilliant, that's helpful, thank you!
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I have Agnes Quigley's death 4 Feb 1960, she was married to Michael Lynch, and that she was born around 1915?
She was 55 when she died so born c1905.
GRONI Online
Agnes Lynch 4th February 1960 55 Female Londonderry
https://geni.nidirect.gov.uk/
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interesting! so that fits completely with the birth record kindly added earlier by Heywood where parents were recorded as Robert Quigley and Kate Quigley, formerly Ferry. I can't read the place of birth if anyone can help me there?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1904/01816/1710806.pdf
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Racecourse?
No townland of that name in Derry/Londonderry.
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That's what I thought it said initially, but guess it can't be. I think it might begin with the letter B?
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There's a Racourse Road on the Shantallow townland boundary.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/5153350#map=16/55.03687/-7.30720
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Brilliant, yes I see, Racecourse Road, that must be what it says, very clever thank you!
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So I can see on Griffiths that in Brinlack there are plenty of McHughs, McFaddens and Ferrys, just a case of unravelling who is who (not easy though I imagine). As I'm new to the source, is there a significance to the numbering in the first column. And I guess the first name in brackets indicates which elder male family member the next generation belongs to, ie would they necessarily be brothers? Many thanks for any help deciphering the info.
https://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/z/zoomifyDynamicViewer.php?file=067100&path=./pix/067/&showpage=1&mysession=2963927792572&width=&height=&debug=
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And another interesting record on the intertwined connections between the 3 families, here is the birth of a Maria Ferry in Nov 1869 to parents Johannes McFadden and Kate McHugh, with a possible explantation in the note below but I can't make out what it says. Any thoughts?
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631955?locale=en#page/20/mode/1up
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And another interesting record on the intertwined connections between the 3 families, here is the birth of a Maria Ferry in Nov 1869 to parents Johannes McFadden and Kate McHugh, with a possible explantation in the note below but I can't make out what it says. Any thoughts?
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631955?locale=en#page/20/mode/1up
The gist of it is parents and sponsors names are in the wrong columns
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Ah ok perfect thank you, makes sense!
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Is this the Quigley family
Marriage of Robert Quigley and Catherine Ferry (father James)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10749/5919825.pdf
Birth of Agnes
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1904/01816/1710806.pdf
I was thinking the above looked right, but pretty sure Catherine/Kitty was married before, so her father wouldn't have been Ferry. So I'm having doubts?
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Hello
I would love some help with navigating the Irish records, I'm looking for Marie McHugh who I think married a McFadden in Brinlack, then Michaelis Ferry with whom she had a daughter, Catherine (Kitty) Ferry in March 1869. Is it possible to see her and her husband in the census records? He may have had other children by a different woman. Michael may have also been in Scotland then the States.
Many thanks for any help!
Is this the Quigley family
Marriage of Robert Quigley and Catherine Ferry (father James)
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1889/10749/5919825.pdf
Birth of Agnes
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1904/01816/1710806.pdf
I was thinking the above looked right, but pretty sure Catherine/Kitty was married before, so her father wouldn't have been Ferry. So I'm having doubts?
This is confusing. You seem to have two women now who married twice. Is that right?
Who do you have as Agnes’ parents?
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Yes it is very confusing.
The info from the family about Kitty's mother: her maiden name was McHugh, first she married a McFadden and then a Ferry. But the difficulty is I don't have first names.
Kitty (from Brinlack) apparently married John Quigley from Ardmore. But if this is the right couple, the marriage record I have of daughter Agnes records her father as Robert Quigley, not John.
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Do you have a marriage for Agnes with her father’s name?
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Here are the marriage and death records
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Maybe it would be useful for me to see who Agnes is buried with in Derry City Cemetery, here is the info from Find a Grave (I think the date 1915 might be a mistake, she died in 1905 according to the death record).
Agnes Lynch
Birth 1915
Death 4 Feb 1960 (aged 44–45)
Burial Derry City Cemetery
Londonderry, County Londonderry, Northern Ireland
Plot P-B-149
Is it possible to search the cemetery records does anyone know?
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The marriage fits with father Robert which in turn fits with the birth of Agnes.
The death certificate has an age which fits rather than Find a Grave record which has no image to compare.
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Is it possible to search the cemetery records does anyone know?
Yes.........see https://www.derrystrabane.com/services/cemeteries/cemetery-records
https://towermuseumcollections.com/cemetery-records/
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https://www.rootschat.com/links/01tp3/
Hopefully this takes you to the cemetery Facebook page photo of the Lynch grave.
The record KG gave seems to give parents as John and Susan whilst, if that is the correct marriage record, her father was Robert.
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Fantastic, yes that's amazing to see, great find!
And thank you KG for the link to the cemetery database, I'm doing some searches.
In the cemetery there seems only one Catherine Quigley with Ferry parents though, named as Neil and Catherine. Also gives her age as 93 in 1958, giving her an approx year of birth of 1865.
This doesn't match the Catherine Ferry I found before who was born in 1869 in Gweedore to parents Micheal Ferry and Maria McFadden.
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There was also an 'Aunt' Nelly in the family who lived in Gweedore, I've found a Nelly Ferry born in Brinlack, with the earlier Michael and Mary Ferry as parents we were looking at.
Nelly Ferry
Gender Female
Birth Date 25 May 1864
Birth Place Crossroads, Donegal, Ireland
Father Michael Ferry
Mother Mary Ferry
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1864/03616/2334520.pdf
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That birth for Nelly Ferry shows the mother as formerly Ferry not McFadden.
There are a few things here to keep in mind.
Recorded ages are not always reliable. It depends on the informant’s knowledge on the record and even if the age was provided by the person themselves, that could be unreliable as age did not matter that much.
Similarly, names recorded much later depend on memory.
Unfortunately the parish records for Tullaghobegley West/Gweedore cover a very short period so baptisms and civil births often cannot be compared.
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So I can see on Griffiths that in Brinlack there are plenty of McHughs, McFaddens and Ferrys, just a case of unravelling who is who (not easy though I imagine). As I'm new to the source, is there a significance to the numbering in the first column. And I guess the first name in brackets indicates which elder male family member the next generation belongs to, ie would they necessarily be brothers? Many thanks for any help deciphering the info.
https://griffiths.askaboutireland.ie/gv4/z/zoomifyDynamicViewer.php?file=067100&path=./pix/067/&showpage=1&mysession=2963927792572&width=&height=&debug=
This link does not work. Could you let us know whose record you were searching for when you comment
'And I guess the first name in brackets indicates which elder male family member the next generation belongs to, ie would they necessarily be brothers?'
I am a little confused by this statement as the records I have downloaded from Griffiths usually have these headings along the top
No & leters of map ref Townlands and Occupiers Intermediate lessors Descrn of tenement etc
The intermediate lessors lease the land to the people named as occupiers.
In the north the intermediate lessors were often London based livery companies or Guilds eg Fishmongers
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livery_company
https://friels.ie/the-mercers-company/
Even where named individuals are holding the land as occupier and intermediate lessor a relationship by name or family cannot be assumed. That would be fair too easy!
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You can use Griffiths to find out the names etc of people who were holding land in a named townland at the time the valauation was carried out.
If you go to Grifths and switch to the heading place names
then enter Brinlack
you will see a list of 88 names including generous helpings of McHughs, Ferrys and McFaddens
Going to the 1901/11 censuses you can search by townland ie Brinlack to see who was there. in 1901 425 people are recorded including McHughs etc. in 1911 there were 488. This does not mean that there were many more people there than recorded in Griffiths. The Census recorded everyone, Griffiths the landholder/occupier.
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Thank you Shanreagh for your reply and for taking me back to Griffiths for a closer look.
Apologies for the confusion. I was talking about the names in italics/brackets. So on the attached screenshot there are 3 male Ferrys with Owen in brackets after their names (Neal, Michael and Patrick) and then Patrick with Michael after his. Does this indicate for example that Neal, Michael and Patrick were brothers?
The entry with Michael is interesting, as there appears to be only one Michael Ferry in Brinlack at that time - the Michael here at 'f' showing house and land, and the Ml. over the page with just land. That may be helpful for pinning down the Michael who married Mary and may have been the parents of Catherine/Kitty Ferry the mother of Agnes.
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It’s likely the father’s name.
In my ancestors’ place you have entries such as Pat (Tom) and Pat (Andy) to distinguish two families with the same surname.
In your list therefore, you have Patrick son of Michael and Patrick son of Owen.
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Are you still looking for Catherine/Kate daughter of Michael?
Is Catherine Ferry who married Robert Quigley now discounted as mother of Agnes?
This would then discount Agnes Quigley who married Michael Lynch, I think.
Somewhere, perhaps cemetery records, I am sure I also saw a Neil and Susan recorded as parents of someone - confusing
Added
The cemetery record has John and Susan
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I'm just looking for absolute confirmation really. At the moment I'm working on certain hypotheses. Agnes Quigley and Michael Lynch are certainties, so I can work back from them.
Agnes definitely had a Kitty Ferry who was her mother, but there were probably a few Catherine Ferrys so I just need to confirm which is the right one through burial records, census or any record where I can match up dates etc properly.
I found the burials of a Kitty and husband Robert Quigley in Derry City (the memorial was on another tree on Ancestry), this is the family from Racecourse. This Robert died in 1939 aged 68 and Catherine died in 1958 aged 93. According to the burial info, this Catherine has parents Neil and Catherine Ferry.
I was told from handed down info that Catherine/Kitty was married to a John Quigley (ie not Robert), but that could be an error.
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Thanks - I knew I had seen Neil as a father somewhere.
There is a tree (yours?) which has a child -Michael Ferry b 1870 to Michael Ferry and Cecilia McBride.
The tree has Michael as half brother to Catherine (Kitty) and Nelly Ferry.
Nelly’s parents 1864 are Michael Ferry and Mary Ferry
Michael Ferry 1870 - as above are Michael and Shelah McBride
Michael Ferry, son of Paddy, and Cecilia McBride married 1867 . He was a bachelor.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11484/8221228.pdf
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I'm just looking for absolute confirmation really. At the moment I'm working on certain hypotheses. Agnes Quigley and Michael Lynch are certainties, so I can work back from them.
Agnes definitely had a Kitty Ferry who was her mother, but there were probably a few Catherine Ferrys so I just need to confirm which is the right one through burial records, census or any record where I can match up dates etc properly.
If Agnes and Michael Lynch is certain, do you have the marriage certificate with her father’s name?
That would be your starting point.
Sorry, if already posted.
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No worries, here it is
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So the problem with Catherine is that the birth to parents Michael and Mary is in 1869, but the burial with Robert Quigley from Racecourse places her birth in 1865.
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And sorry to answer your question Heywood, yes, that sounds like the Ancestry tree I'm working on.
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As I wrote before and lots on here will agree, ages are just not reliable.
Compare Robert and Catherine Quigley in 1901 and 1911
Robert - 30 yrs and 42 yrs
Catherine - 28 yrs and 42 yrs
They were both ‘full age’ on marriage in 1889
Robert was born 1869.
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ok, I'm checking handed down info to see if I can verify whether Kitty lived in the Racecourse Rd area.
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1901 census- Shortallon (all born Derry): Robert Quigley (30), wife Kate (28) & children Hugh (10), Mary (8 yrs.), Cassie (6), Louie (1), Eliza (1).
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Londonderry/Lower_Liberties/Shortallon/1538654/
1911 census- Shantallow (Kate born Donegal): Robert Quigley (42), wife Kate (42) & children Hugh (20), Mary (18), Cassie (16), Bridget Louisa (14), Lillie (11), Jane Josephine (9), Agnes (7), John Francis.
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1911/Londonderry/Liberties__Lower/Shantallow/604775/
Note- death of Agnes’ next oldest sister.
Derry Journal, 2 May 1975: QUIGLEY- 27th April, 1975 at her residence 7 Greenhaw Tec., Steelstown Road, Jean Josephine (Jenny), daughter of the late Robert and Catherine Quigley, Racecourse Road. R.I.P. Funeral _ to City Cemetery on ...
Derry City Cemetery:
Hugh Quigley, age 66, Racecourse Road Shantallow, born Derry, died 10 Oct.1957, plot M C 73, parents- Robert & Catherine Quigley.
In same plot is Robert Quigley, age 1 yr. 3 mo., Bogslea, born Bogslea, died 19 Sept.1910, parents- Robert & Catherine Quigley.
Birth: Robert James Quigley 19 Apr.1909 Racecourse-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1909/01613/1646905.pdf
Death: Robert James Quigley 19 Sept.1910 Shantallow-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1910/05412/4512235.pdf
Note: 1911 census says there were 9 children but only 8 living so Robert is the deceased child.
Agnes’s birth certificate (1904) lists parents as Robert Quigley & Catherine Ferry. Agnes’ age fits with 1911 census.
Agnes (Quigley) married Michael Lynch in 1930 (certificate lists father as Robert Quigley and her residence as Racecourse). She died 1960 (age fits with birth certificate).
Headstone for Robert & Catherine Quigley gives her death as 17 Aug.1958 age 93. Derry City Cemetery records have same details & lists birthplace as Donegal but list parents as Neil & Susan Ferry.
Death notice also confirms date of death: Derry Standard, 18 Aug.1958: QUIGLEY - August 17, 1958, at her residence, Racecourse Road, Shantallow, Catherine, widow of Robert Quigley R I.P Her remains will be removed to-day (Monday) at 7 pm, to St. Patrick’s ...
Headstone & Cemetery records indicate birth c1865. 1901 census age 28 so born c1873. 1911 census age 42 so born c1869. So, this range is only 8 years (nothing unusual for Ireland at this time period)
I know from extensive research with the cemetery records that there are sometimes error although difficult to say if mistakes came from informant or cemetery staff. Catherine’s husband Robert Quigley died before her so informant for age on death and parents & age in cemetery records could have been one of her children. That person might not have known the correct names for Catherine’s parents or her exact date/year of birth.
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ok, I'm checking handed down info to see if I can verify whether Kitty lived in the Racecourse Rd area.
Why would you doubt this?
Agnes' marriage certificate (1930) lists Racecourse Road and Agnes' birth says Racecourse.
Daughter Jean Josephine Quigley's death notice gives parents as "late Robert and Catherine Quigley, Racecourse Road."
Birth for son Robert (1909) gives Racecourse.
Lots of newspaper recorts over the years such as this one-
Londonderry Sentinel, 14 Nov.1962: Youths fined for ‘worst ever’ language ... Robert Quigley, aged 17, Racecourse Road, Shantallow; and a 16 years' old juvenile. Constable Cryan said that while on his way home he heard shouting ...
Racecourse/Shantallow listed on numerous other records.
You can see the area of Shantallow townland here with Racecourse Road running right through it-
https://www.townlands.ie/londonderry/north-west-liberties-of-londonderry/templemore/liberties-lower/shantallow/
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Yes you're absolutely right, it does seem incontrovertible when you lay it all out so clearly, thank you so much, I'm very grateful for yours and everyone's help! As you say, the dates won't necessarily match up exactly, and I was clouded by the fact that in the handed down info, Racecourse wasn't mentioned. But there you have it all, it must be right, thank you so much again.
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Robert Quigley’s birth shows he lived ‘Race Course’
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1869/03409/2250265.pdf
On their marriage, Catherine Ferry was a housekeeper - residence Londonderry (as Robert)
She was presumably employed in Londonderry.
I would like to add that much of the information aghadowey has posted has been mentioned in various forms throughout the thread or in questions asked of you.
😉
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Yes, heywood, I took what was already posted then went through sources for everything to verify the details before checking newpapers and a few other records.
Family stories are wonderful- when they are correct or bear some semblance to reality. To give an example of what can happen-
In the early 1970s my sister asked Dad for the names of his 4 grandparents (school project). Youngest brother named for both grandfathers so that bit was easy. He then said grandmothers were Margaret (paternal) and Sarah (maternal). When I asked how be came up with their names he said each one had a daughter named after her. Well... paternal grandmother was Mary (eldest daughter called Margaret but 2nd one given middle name May for mother) and maternal grandmother was Annie (eldest daughter called Sarah but 2nd one named for her). In all fairness, his father's family weren't spoken about, he'd only ever met a few relatives and that grandmother had died when his father was a baby.
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One other place to check would be the Valuation Revision Books (which run from printed version of Griffith's Valuation (mid-1850s) until almost 1930)-
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/search-archives-online/valuation-revision-books (search for Shantallow townland)
I did notice that in 1898/1910 property 19. changed from an Edward Fury to Eliza Fury (c1907) and she might be the Lizzie Ferris who appears at various properties in Shantallow in the 1923-1929 book.
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Robert Quigley’s birth shows he lived ‘Race Course’
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1869/03409/2250265.pdf
On their marriage, Catherine Ferry was a housekeeper - residence Londonderry (as Robert)
She was presumably employed in Londonderry.
I would like to add that much of the information aghadowey has posted has been mentioned in various forms throughout the thread or in questions asked of you.
😉
Brilliant, thank you Heywood, very useful to see that record, confirming that Robert's family was in Derry in the 1860s, while Kate's family stayed in Brinlack where she was born.
Apologies for any duplications in the thread, I hugely appreciate all the help from everyone, I would have got nowhere without it :)
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Great that you are sorted hopefully.
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Thank you Heywood, yes all looking good for the Quigleys in Derry.
I'm now looking back again to around Brinlack/Gweedore for Catherine/Kitty's parents and siblings. The records for her in Derry are slightly contradictory:
Catherine's marriage record to Robert in 1889 gives her father as James Ferry;
her burial in 1958 gives her parents as Neil and Catherine Ferry;
but I have a record of her birth with parents Michael and Maria McFadden.
This isn't new info, it's already been mentioned in the thread earlier. But I'm going to see what death/burial records I can find in Brinlack, I've only found birth records from there so far.
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The record you have is a baptism not a birth record.
There does not seem to be an equivalent birth.
I will post the civil birth again and hope that someone could pass comment. It gives birth as 11th Feb 1868 and registered 2nd March 1868.
However, the declaration at the foot of the page is dated 15th April 1869
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/supp_births/2343692x.pdf
The baptism record - parish Tullaghobegley West shows a birth of 12th March 1869 and a baptism date 14th March.1869
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631955?locale=en#page/14/mode/1up
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The declaration is always after the last birth on the page, in this case Kate is the only one on the page, the declaration isn’t about her it’s confirming the entries on the page have been checked and are correct.
See the declaration on this one is from Daniel Ferry, top of page to Mary Sweeney, bottom of the page, and is several months after Mary was registered.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1903/01869/1727594.pdf
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Thanks Sinann, I thought I understood that but was querying the dates. - one year later.
Is that a regular thing?
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Brilliant thank you both.
As you say Heywood civil and church records are a year apart and seem to have different fathers, neither of whom were present at the birth (Gallagher was)
But, looking back again at the marriage record you posted right at the start, of James Ferry and Mary McFaddon, Feb 1867 is consistent with a birth in Feb 1868 to match the civil record. This record includes (as you pointed out) a Michael Ferry as sponsor and a Neil, which have variously ended up in the different records in Derry. So I suppose all those names might easily have just been given the wrong relationship if they weren't known in Derry.
//www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1867/11484/8221225.pdf
Nelly who has been mentioned before, was born in 1864 to Michael Ferry and Mary, formerly Ferry - maybe it was the same Mary McFadden, although this would have been before they were married. Nelly did seem a close family relative, was known as 'aunt' Nelly.
//www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1864/03616/2334520.pdf
There was a story about one of the Ferrys going to Scotland then the States. This might shed more light. Perhaps James and Michael were away at various points. This would explain seemingly no more children for James after 1868.
There was a Brendan John Ferry perhaps born in Scotland who went to America. He died without family and the family over here didn't know him or know about him, but they were contacted about an inheritance I think. Maybe he was a son of James or Michael. I haven't been able to find him so far.
There is a Michael Ferry who died in Hamilton, Scotland in August 1927 who was from Brinlack. I know there was a Michael, son of Michael Ferry and Cecilia McBride born in Brinlack in 1870. Maybe it was him. I think he had a brother Jacob born in 1870.
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631955?locale=en#page/104/mode/1up
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A possible explanation on the McHugh/McFadden/Ferry combination of names:
We know that a Mary McFadden, daughter of Charles McFadden married James Ferry in Feb 1867.
I also found in Feb 1875 a Mary McFadden, daughter of Charles McFadden who married a ? McHugh
https://donegalgenealogy.com/tullaghmarrs.htm
I haven't found the original though, so don't know if there were 2 Charles/Mary McFaddens, ie if on that 2nd marriage, Mary was described as a widow or not.
Does this seem a bit far fetched as an idea?
Also in the 1901 census, there is a Patrick McHugh aged 80 with son John McHugh, both widowers (I have been unable to find the death of a Mary McHugh before 1901 though) and 3 children including an Ellen McHugh. She might even be the Nelly I am looking for. /https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai000657691/
Can anyone help with verifying any of this, or giving their thoughts?
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Marriage 1875 John McHugh and Mary McFadden
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1875/11193/8101707.pdf
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Wow thank you, it does say that she's a widow, fits with the theory :)
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The only problem with it though is that she's recorded as McFadden, her maiden name, and not Ferry. But she could have reverted to her maiden name after James died I guess. I couldn't find a death for James, but it could have been in Scotland.
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Does it say though under that record that Mary is the widow of James McFadden, in which case this doesn't work as we should have a Ferry somewhere :(
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The witness to her mark is James McFadden - as is the priest so same person perhaps.
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Ah ok thank you, I see, that's very helpful.
Do you think it's conceivable she just used her maiden name, and this is the same Mary McFadden who married James Ferry?
I think there might be church marriage records for Tullaghobegly West for this period too, according to this source (I've sent him a message asking about them, but haven't heard back yet): https://johngrenham.com/records/church.php?civilparishid=794&civilparish=Tullaghobegly&search_type=full
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Here is a Daniel born 1880 to that couple. Perhaps searching for and following children may help.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1880/02852/2044887.pdf
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Fantastic idea, brilliant thank you, I'll definitely do that.
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If this hasn't been mentioned before-
Tullaghobegley West
Diocese of Raphoe | County of Donegal
Variant forms of parish name: Gweedore
https://registers.nli.ie/parishes/1024
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Thank you, yes, I've been through that book, but should go through it again now for all children of Mary and John McHugh.
It's just a shame the book is only baptisms and not marriages or burials, but at least it covers 6 years of when Mary and John would have been having children, from 1875 to 1881.
Thank you for the link.
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A few points-
Most churches (except Church of Ireland) didn't keep burial records- if there are any it might just cover a short period.
From this it looks like baptisms only go back to 1868, marriages seem to start 1866 (these are likely the civil registrations and not the church records)-
https://www.johngrenham.com/records/rc_church.php?churchid=1024&parish=Tullaghobegley%20West
I have come across instances where a widow is listed under her maiden name not the surname of her deceased husband but in the cases I followed the woman used her married name up to the time of remarriage so suspect it's just the way clergyman wrote it in the record.
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Haven't read back through the entire thread but have these records been eliminated?
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=ea0ad8543e-962768
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/view/?record_id=ea0ad8543e-961393
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Ah thank you aghadowey, very interesting and helpful to know the churches didn't keep burial records.
And thank you for those James Ferry records, very very interesting indeed :). (And no they haven't been seen already).
They are both actually possible, as they are both listed in the 3rd quarter of 1868; and Catherine Ferry was born in March 1869, so both of them could have been the father.
I've just tried to order death certificates on gov.ie website, but 1878 seems to be the earliest date that will work.
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I've found a daughter Bridget for John and Mary McHugh born 29 Dec 1875:
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631955?locale=en#page/57/mode/1up
She seems to have married a Andrew McGeady or McGready according to an Ancestry tree, and here is the family in the 1901 census although she's not there and all adults are listed as single:
https://donegalgenealogy.com/1901brinlackt.htm (family no 38)
McGeady Andrew Head RC Can't read 40 Farmer Single Donegal IE
McGeady John Brother RC Can't read 35 Farm Asst Single Donegal IE
McGeady Katie Sister RC Can't read 30 farmer's sister Single Donegal IE
McGeady Bridget Mother RC Can't read 70 Farmer's Mother Widow Donegal IE
McGeady Bridget Niece RC RW 9 Scholar Single Donegal IE
Here is the family again in 1911 and she's not there again although Andrew is listed as married this time, not widowed - so maybe John is his son but not Bridget?:
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai002064588/
Bridget McGeady 75 Head
Andrew McGeady 47 Son
Kate McGeady 40 Daughter
John McGeady 32 Son
John McGeady 5 Grand Son (Grandson)
I would really appreciate any help in definitively linking Bridget McHugh to the family and finding evidence of her marriage to a McGeady? I do come up with possible death and marriage index entries, with Family Search references, but no Family Search records here seem to be digitised. It would be great to understand where I'm going wrong here in not being able to navigate the records very well! Thank you :)
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Here is the civil marriage record for Bridget McHugh and Andrew McGeady
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1905/10164/5697588.pdf
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Bridget’s death in 1906
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05562/4561323.pdf
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Brilliant thank you so much!
And Daniel, probably her brother (born 1880), is the witness :). I'll have to try and see what happened to him too.
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This might be Daniel's death in Brinlack - 5 July 1952.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1952/04483/4176319.pdf
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Sorry I should have added his surname, this is the McHugh family, so Daniel McHugh, from parents Mary McFadden/Ferry and her 2nd husband John McHugh:
//www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1880/02852/2044887.pdf
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This is a marriage index record for Daniel McHugh for 1911 3rd quarter:
Daniel McHugh
Date of Registration 1911, Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration District Dunfanaghy, Ireland
Volume 2
Page number 49
FHL Film Number 101262
Household members
Name Age
Francis Doogan
Daniel McHugh
Maggie McNulty
Bridget Coyle (or Boyle?)
Robert Snodgrass
James Coll
If the record doesn't seem to come up on IrishGenealogy, how can I access the original record? Very many thanks, this is vexing me!
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Doesn’t look like your man
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1911/09966/5623282.pdf
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This might be Daniel's death in Brinlack - 5 July 1952.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1952/04483/4176319.pdf
If this is Daniel’s death, he is a bachelor
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Amazing, thank you so much heywood - and yes I see now, Dan McHugh is below Dan Ferry. That could well be him, I guess I should be able to get the death cert to confirm that.
Can I just ask is it a paywall that's stopping me finding the records, where is the best place to look for them? Thank you so much if you don't mind sharing!!
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..sorry, I mean on that marriage record for example.
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No paywall.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/
Just complete as much as you can on the page, when you have chosen civil record/name/event, another section is below when you confirm your name and tick a box.
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Thank you, yes that's the site I've been using. There must be a knack to what you fill in, very often records don't seem to come up when I know they exist!
Going back to Daniel, so I can discount the Daniel who was married to Margaret McNulty, thank you so much for that.
Interesting though I did find a petty session court record from April 1909 of a Daniel McHugh from Brinlack as a defendant in a case where his son Edward wasn't attending school.
The record came up through Ancestry, I couldn't seem to find it on Family Search but in case it's useful I'll post it here:
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/61938/images/ire_pettys_4619996_00527?pId=22277134
But it's more likely that 'my' Daniel is the bachelor you found.
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ok I'm replying to myself here... I've just realised that can't be 'my' Daniel, as on the 1911 census when he is 30, it shows him as single and there are no children in the house.
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I'm not sure I can get a death certificate for Daniel - it seems only the index is available according to this:
Dunfanaghy 1864 to 1958: FamilySearch Online, Index only.
And Dunfanaghy doesn't appear on the GRONI district list.
So I guess finding the grave maybe and/or any living relatives is the next best way to work out if this is the right Daniel.
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And Dunfanaghy doesn't appear on the GRONI district list.
It doesn't appear because Dunfanaghy is in Co Donegal, and the GRONI list is for the six counties of Northern Ireland.
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Ah of course, thank you Kiltaglassan
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You have the death certificate from Irish genealogy posted earlier by KG and quoted by me also. It is the one where there is also Dan Ferry on the same page.
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Thank you - would there not be an individual death certificate where it states say the parents of the deceased and the reason for death? Oh no if I've just paid for the same registry entry, guess that's called living and learning :(
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Sorry it does give a reason for death and informant rather than names of the parents.
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Maybe it's not too late for me to cancel it if that is the case.
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No paywall.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/
Just complete as much as you can on the page, when you have chosen civil record/name/event, another section is below when you confirm your name and tick a box.
Although Heywood's is the generally accepted way of searching I have found that using less information rather than trying to fill out every box can give better leads.
For instance
1 putting a wide set of birth years search dates will catch births that are registered late or later. So births around Christmas when weather is bad in the northern hemisphere may be registered next market day in January. So putting a 'tight' search year might mean not being able to find a birth
2 I usually don't use a location in searching, I might limit it to a county but there are counties where markets are across the border and towns where registrations took place may be different to where we think the birth took place.
3 Similarly with names. Coming from a family where children were registered with one name and called by another and even a case where no first name was registered I usually might start with just the surname
4 For surnames especially, spelling was not as consistent as nowdays. So I usually keep a list of variations and search for all of those eg we might have a name Collins and think we just need to search for Collins. But the name may have been recorded as Collyns,Colin, Colling, Collynge etc etc
5 Deaths may be registered from an unexpected town if the person had been in a hospital or infirmary before death.
So I favour a looser style of searching. This can flash up larger numbers but if you know your search parameters you will be able to eliminate 'also rans' easily.
I had a stunning example of this loose style working in my own family even if it was inadvertent. I was helping with a family book & I was in charge of verifying the births of the children. Nine of them. One time I could not remember if it was 1900 or 1901 that the oldest child had been born or if 1900 was the marriage. So to be on the safe side I put 1899 and there was a birth registration of a child we knew nothing about. She had been born first but had died shortly after the birth of the child we had always believed was the oldest.
So my experience has always been that the tighter the search parmeters the less likely you are to find ancestors.
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Sorry it does give a reason for death and informant rather than names of the parents.
Even though it may not give the parents some deaths certificates may say eg Andrew Sims aged 2 then under occupation 'son of a carter' etc etc. if you know that the Andrew Sims you are looking for was the son of a solicitor you may get a clue that way.
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That's very interesting and very helpful thank you shanreagh, on both counts.
I have been using looser search info as you describe, but I still don't seem to be able to find some records that others have. However, it's very good to have confirmed that Irish Genealogy is the best site/source to use, I will just have to persevere :)
And useful to know there aren't separate individual death certs - I have tried to cancel the order so fingers crossed that works.
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Bridget’s death in 1906
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1906/05562/4561323.pdf
I don't know where I thought that Daniel was the witness, I must have mixed it up with another record.
I was looking at this again - and very sadly, it's her husband Andrew who is the informant, Bridget died on 19 March 1906 of a uterine infection following childbirth, a few weeks after son John was born (27 Feb 1906). And hence Andrew recorded as a widower on the 1911 census.
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This looks like Dan McHugh’s grave. If you recall Grace Gallagher was the informant.
There are Gallaghers also in this grave.
https://irishgraveyards.ie/plot?plotno=39&yardid=19§ion=A
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Ah yes, brilliant detective work, thank you so much. So Grace Gallagher and Grace Sweeney are likely the same. I wonder what their connection to Dan is.
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Grace Gallagher was listed as the occupier if I'm reading it correctly:
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1952/04483/4176319.pdf
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Maybe this is John McGeady's marriage in 1927 (to Catherine McGee):
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1927/09094/5289549.pdf
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This is interesting. I found a sister of Dan, Grace McHugh. She was born in June 1878,
(https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000631955?locale=en#page/81/mode/1up)
and married James Ferry. They emigrated to the States in 1912 and were in the 1920 census in New York, with Grace's brother John McHugh who had emigrated in 1910.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MJRD-BJS?lang=en
In Feb 1931 Grace's son Bernard Ferry aged 14 - Dan and John McHugh's nephew (born in the States in 1916), travelled to Glasgow with none other than Simon and Helen Gallagher (who were eventually buried with Dan).
https://www.ancestry.co.uk/imageviewer/collections/1518/images/30807_A000950-00210?usePUB=true&_phsrc=kdV3041
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In 1924, Simon, Helen Gallagher and their 3 young children travelled to Glasgow from New York:
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Oh it’s complicated!
Looking at the 1931 passenger list, they were travelling to Moville , not Glasgow though.
Added - and the other one you have posted.
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Oh yes, you're right, thank you, the ultimate destination of the ship was Glasgow, but they landed at Moville.
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I suppose it's possible this is the same Gallagher family travelling in 1929, this time with Grace aged 6 and 3 younger siblings. The only other person going to Derrybeg on that page is Nellie Ferry, this could be the mysterious Nellie I am also trying to find, I guess she seems the most likely person to be travelling with the children.
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Grace Gallagher born 15 May 1922 at Clonbara, Father John a farmer, mother Sarah McHugh.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1922/01156/1482612.pdf
https://www.townlands.ie/donegal/kilmacrenan/tulacha-beigile/cross-roads/clonbara/
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I doubt that those Gallaghers would be a close connection. Sarah McHugh’s father - Owen.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1913/09889/5592635.pdf
There are so many connections with all the names being so common in that area.
Grace, on the death record is described as ‘occupier’ rather than any kind of relative.
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True. But Simon and Helen Gallagher being buried with Dan indicates some sort of relative? They were also buried with Grace Sweeney, maybe she is a way of working out the connections.
On Nellie, I found Nellie Ferry travelling again, in 1923 on a ship from Liverpool to New York to see her sister Rose (Reilly) and it says her father is C Ferry (Charles?).
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This may have been posted. You mention an aunt Ellen a few times.
Here is a birth for Ellen - parents John MCHugh and Mary McFadden
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/birth_returns/births_1884/02702/1994904.pdf
Is this the family in 1901?
https://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Donegal/Meenacladdy/Brinlack/1174082/
John is a widower
It may have all been established earlier - apologies if so.
Is there a marriage anywhere for Simon and Helen Gallagher?
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Yes thank you very much - that 1901 census was posted before but a while back, so it's a useful reminder (there's so much info on this thread it's amazing I'm so grateful to everyone for their help).
I don't think I'd seen Ellen's birth record though, thank you :)
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Simon Gallagher’s passport application - repeated pages. It says that daughter Grace was born in Ireland
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-99D3-L3SN-4?view=index&action=view&cc=2185145&lang=en
Ellen’s application including photo with babies (2nd page)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QV5B-WGZC?lang=en
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Brilliant, that's a really great find, thank you, so much info in there - and a photo, amazing!!
I'm just going through it all for any birth hints about Helen/Ellen, should be possible to find her marriage or naturalisation records, I'll go hunting, thank you :)
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That birth record of Ellen's is interesting, it shows her father John McHugh as a weaver, I haven't seen that before.
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There is so much intermarriage of those names though.
When you have time it might be best to review the finds and try to make sense of them all. I used to draw mind maps linking people.
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Yes it's very tricky to hold on to all the different threads, but I'm adding everything that's connected into the Ancestry tree as I go along.
If I can't immediately connect the Gallaghers I'll probably start a Gallagher tree and work from there, so that will be like my mind map.
The extremely good news though is that I've had confirmation from the family that the Bernard John Ferry is the 'right' one, the fireman who died in Florida in 2000 who left the inheritance. (as in he wasn't Brendan and we were correct in working out it was Bernard instead).
And to add a bit more colour to the Ferrys, Kitty/Catherine daughter of James Ferry and Mary McFadden was in dispute with the Ferry family after James' death over land. She won though, and was known afterwards as Kitty the field! :)
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That’s a good confirmation of the link.
Let’s hope that some other links are joined soon. 🙂
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Also we saw that there was an Edward Gallagher present at Kitty's birth in Feb 1868:
http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/supp_births/2343692x.pdf
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I think Simon Gallagher's wife is Helen McHugh and here is their daughter Mary:
Mary Delia Gallagher
[Mary Delia Penrose]
[Mary Penrose]
Gender Female
Race White
Birth Date 27 Oct 1918
Birth Place Brooklyn, New York
[Brooklyn Kin??, New York]
Death Date 22 May 2007
Father
Simon Gallagher
Mother
Helen McHugh
SSN 088208782
Notes Apr 1943: Name listed as MARY DELIA GALLAGHER; Feb: Name listed as MARY DELIA PENROSE; 02 Jun 2007: Name listed as MARY D PENROSE
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Dearth of Ellen Gallagher - informant Grace, her daughter
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1953/04460/4167957.pdf
I hope I am not repeating this!
Added
I suppose it might be best to post what records you need after you have collated all this information.
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Brilliant, thank you heywood I hadn't seen that.
In answer to your question, I'm still trying to work who Helen/Ellen's parents are - is she perhaps the daughter of Maria McFadden and John McHugh?
And is the Grace Sweeney buried with Helen and Simon Gallagher (and Dan McHugh) their daughter, ie the same Grace who we've just seen present at Helen/Ellen's death?
The Ellen you very kindly confirmed born in 1884 to parents John McHugh and Maria McFadden may not be the same one who married Simon, who was a bit younger (62 at death in 1953 so born around 1891).
I have so far also not found any children beyond Bernard John Ferry's generation (the fireman son of Grace McHugh and James Ferry who died in 2000).
From children of John McHugh and Mary McFadden I have Bridget McHugh (born 1875), John McHugh (born 1877), Grace McHugh (born 1878), Daniel McHugh (born 1880), Ellen McHugh (born 1884) and John McHugh (born 1885) - but only children for Bridget (Bridget and John McGeady), and Grace McHugh (Bernard and Grace Ferry). And no children from any of those 4. There may not have been any, which is why half sister Catherine/Kitty Ferry Quigley's family was left money from Bernard.
So that's where I am. I hope that helps? And such huge thanks for staying with this hunt, I've made such amazing progress thanks to everyone's help.
And there's still Nellie with the shop that I'm trying to place. But that's a bit tricky as I don't know if she was a Ferry or a McHugh or something else. I've nudged the family for more info on her :)
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Where did Nellie with the shop live?
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It was in Brinlack.
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Great news as an update on Simon and Ellen Gallagher - Ellen is happily the mysterious 'Nellie' I had been trying to locate. I found her grandson after receiving the inheritance document of intestate Bernard Ferry (over 100 beneficiaries listed!) and then firing off some emails. The grandson confirmed that in 1933 she came back to Ireland from the US and built a dance hall with shop. Sadly it burned down in 1939.
However he has little info about grandfather Simon so I have been trying to collate some for him. I found that Simon Gallagher lost his mother Bridget when he was very young in 1884, then his father John who was a butcher/farmer remarried in 1892 and had a further 9 children. John died in 1925 which ties with Simon and Ellen travelling over in 1924, stated reason to see John.
A couple of queries remain though. Simon died in October 1937 as per the grave which places him with wife Nellie, brother in law Daniel McHugh and daughter Grace Sweeney (https://irishgraveyards.ie/plot?plotno=39&yardid=19§ion=A). However I haven't been able to find a death register entry to say what the cause of death was.
I also haven't been able to find a passenger list for his first ship crossing to the States on 4 July 1910 aboard the vessel Lusitania.
I would be very grateful as always for any help you may be able to offer, thank you so much in advance.
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Simon died in Scotland. Dundee Royal Infirmary
Donegal News Nov 6 1937
Also a mention in the same newspaper on 16 Oct, but doesn't give the date he died but this was clearly before his remains were brought home.
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Wow thank you so much Sinann, that's so interesting. Is it possible to see the news item?
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I wonder what he was doing there and when he left the States - he was on a ship back to the States in 1932 by himself.
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You need a subscription to Irish Newspapers Archive.
Lots of travel between Donegal and Scotland, people often travelled to Scotland for seasonal work and many would have family living there.
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Yes, thank you Sinann, definitely a lot to Glasgow, Dundee is less obvious though. Simon may have lived in Edinburgh though before he went to New York in 1910, so that's on the east coast too I suppose. It would be great to be able to find him in some directories or any other definite markers. His grandson didn't know anything about him, so I wonder if Simon was living away in those last few years. He was a paver in the States, I guess a lot more work in cities than in Donegal.
I have just located him on the Scotland's people site and ordered his death certificate (not cheap though), so that will be good to see. Thank you for finding him in Scotland!
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I have just located him on the Scotland's people site and ordered his death certificate (not cheap though), so that will be good to see. Thank you for finding him in Scotland!
You could have used 6 credits to view his death certificate right away.
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Thank you, maybe I'll try and cancel the post order and do it as you suggest, it wasn't obvious that was an option.
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...it wasn't obvious that was an option.
Strange!
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I obviously wasn't looking properly :(
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Actually I can slightly redeem myself. When I went back to order the online info this morning, the credit option wasn't showing at first, I came out but went back to take a screenshot to check I wasn't going mad, then went back in and the credit option showed up. So I think the system might be a bit sensitive.
Anyway, all is good, I managed to cancel the paper version (thank you aghadowey) and now have the online info. So it appears that Simon probably wasn't based in Dundee, that's just where he went to hospital following his appendicitis and then got pneumonia. Seems he was living/staying with his son John in Cupar, Fife and working on a farm.