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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Deirdre784 on Sunday 02 March 25 15:53 GMT (UK)
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i have got to a point on my husband’s tree where his great grandfather William Williams is with his grandparents aged 5 (1891), appears to be a servant at the next farm aged 15 (1901) and from then on - until his death - is 100 miles away. The grandparents have 6 or more daughters (and 4+ sons), and 7 grandchildren are recorded with them in 1891, along with 2 unmarried daughters in their mid 30s. Two of the grandchildren died, registered by the grandfather, but the burial records record them as son / daughter of two of the daughters (different daughters, only one of whom was living with them in 1891).
Given that the surnames are Williams (in Wales ;D), it is proving impossible to establish which of the daughters is the mother. His children from his first marriage (listing William Williams deceased as his father, though this could be his grandfather, no father named on his second marriage) are Catherine - apologies edited to Elizabeth, Margaret (his mother in law’s name) and Ellen (his wife’s name) so I’ve been concentrating on his mother being Catherine - Elizabeth, but not really getting anywhere. The 1939 register gives a date of birth as 1 April 1889 but that is later than all other records.
So I have no date or place of birth other than the area, and no parents, and only an address at aged 5. If I don’t know the references will the GRO look for a birth at the address where his grandparents were living?
Any suggestions as to how I can record this on the tree? Add his mother as A N Other Williams, maybe note it could be Ann, Mary, Catherine etc, and then her parents etc. I’m hoping the grandparents marriage certificate is on the way but that’s another mystery (grandfather wasn’t using the surname Williams at the time!).
Thanks for reading :)
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Yes that sounds a tricky one. I doubt GRO search addresses but someone may know more.
Who were the two daughters living at home in 1891? I would start with them in case he was with his mother as well as grandparents.
Would there be baptism records for a local church you could get hold of?
1939 DOB aren't always accurate either :-\ Often the date is right but not the year so it might be something to go on at least.
What address were the grandparents at so I look at the correct census?
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One of those other grandchildren could be a brother or sister so another avenue to go down.
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Deirdre784, just checking out 1891 census ref 4651 126 5, is this correct.
SS
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Hi SS, yes that’s the one (I was looking for the details).
Millipede - family appear to be non-conformist, no baptism or marriages found, only 1 of the children’s marriages listed in the paper.
The order of the grandchildren made me wonder if they were in groups by mother, though Jane’s mother Catherine is not there. Jane died aged 10 on 18 March 1897, buried at Llandegwning. Catherine is possibly in Bryncroes (about 4 miles away) as a servant.
Mary is the mother of John, died 15 Dec 1891, buried at Llandegwning.
I’ve searched the burial records for any other deaths at the family home, Cefn Coch, and have the grandparents.
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Mary is the mother of Mary 1888 & Margaret 1892 as per their baptisms, no father recorded for either.
SS
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So what else do we know about Catherine? Thinking of Jane and William as siblings and hers.
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Mary is the mother of Mary 1888 & Margaret 1892 as per their baptisms, no father recorded for either.
SS
Where did you find that?
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So what else do we know about Catherine? Thinking of Jane and William as siblings and hers.
Servant in Llangian in 1881 and in Bryncroes in 1891 - not found later…
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Sorry millipede, did you see I’d edited the first post, William’s first daughter was Elizabeth not Catherine (had Catherine on the brain).
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There are only two William Williams born in the correct district in 1886 with no mothers name both in Sep.
So you could take a chance on a £3 digital image and see if it helps progress investigations.
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There are only two William Williams born in the correct district in 1886 with no mothers name both in Sep.
So you could take a chance on a £3 digital image and see if it helps progress investigations.
Bought 11b 438, 5 Aug 1886, mother Catherine, domestic servant, at Gorswen, Bryncroes, so a possibility but nothing to confirm, and 11b 432 9 June 1886, mother Ellen, at the barracks
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In case anyone is interested in this puzzling family (wider than just the William i’m looking for, a recent post is here). https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=889306.18
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Mary is the mother of Mary 1888 & Margaret 1892 as per their baptisms, no father recorded for either.
SS
Where did you find that?
Found Mary thanks, but not Margaret so far. Huge gaps in the register 🙁
Margaret is 8 in 1891 so not the 1892 baptism (doesn’t say she was order than a baby as most seem to, and the abode isn’t Cefn Coch 🤔
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There are only two William Williams born in the correct district in 1886 with no mothers name both in Sep.
So you could take a chance on a £3 digital image and see if it helps progress investigations.
Bought 11b 438, 5 Aug 1886, mother Catherine, domestic servant, at Gorswen, Bryncroes, so a possibility but nothing to confirm, and 11b 432 9 June 1886, mother Ellen, at the barracks
Still searching .... but decided to try for Jane's birth (his possible sister) to see if it helps, and it does as it confirms mother Catherine, no father named, Jane born 7 Aug 1886, at Cefn Coch, so rules out these two (unless Ellen is a daughter of William and Ann that i don't know about, not with them at Cefn Coch in any census).
So i've now bought all the William Williams births in Pwllheli with no mother's maiden name in 1885 - 1888, but nothing to link (as does Jane's) to the family as Cefn Coch.
I'm guessing that if the mother was a domestic servant (living away from home) she would be sent home for the birth, so have been hoping to find a birth at Cefn Coch.
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Sometimes it can be worth leaving it (as you suggested with a ? placeholder name) for a while and coming back to it
I had a similar issue - I had found a bastardy bond with his mother listed as Ann - his grandparents had three daughters - Nanny, Hannah and Sibeana (and he named his daughters after all of them) - any of which could have been Ann. 2 years later I uncovered additional records which ruled out two of them
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Thanks iolaus, even at £3 a go the possibles are adding up. Need to try and find non conformist records as there are very few church baptisms and marriages coming up.
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Having bought a few certificates, i'm no closer to finding the birth of 'our' William (and of course this one may not be my husband's great grandfather in any event, but looks a strong possibility). A very confusing family to research! comments / suggestions very welcome.
The family appears to start as Rowlands, changed to Owen in 1861, then became Williams in 1871, living at Cefn Coch, Llandegwning until the mid 1900s (Ann died there in 1905, William in Portmadog in 1907, no family at Cefn Coch in 1911).
Of the 7 grandchildren listed with William and Ann Williams at Cefn Coch, Llandegwning in 1891 (RG12 / 4651 / 126 / 5), I have found 4 (Jane, Mary, John and Robert), all born at Cefn Coch, all illegitimate, two to Mary, one to Catherine and one to Elizabeth. Only one baptism found, family appear to be mainly non-conformist. This leaves Ann (born about 1879, Margaret (1883) and William (1886). William is the one i'm researching; I've bought all 6 of the William Williams births with no mother's maiden name, in Pwllheli district, from 1884 to 1889 (the 1939 register says his date of birth was 1 April 1889, but all other records suggest 1886. None of them was born at Cefn Coch so difficult to prove, 4 of them are possibles by mother's name (Mary x2, Eliza, Catherine), the other two are unlikely).
Marriage of William and Ann, grandparents:
28 November 1849, at the Penlan independent chapel, Pwllheli, William Rowlands, aged 25, bachelor, labourer, of Rhyd-y-Bengan, Llandegwning, father Owen Williams, labourer; Ann Jones, aged 25, spinster, of Neigwl y Plas, Llandegwning, father John Williams, mason. William and Ann both made their mark.
Daughters:
Laura Rowlands born 19 July 1850 at Pantglas, Aberech, daughter of William Rowlands, labourer, and Ann, formerly Jones Her birth was registered as Laura Rowlands, on the 1851 as Laura Rowland, and as Lowry Owen in 1861. Married as Laura Williams. She married John Roberts in 1873, they had several children, and she died in Portmadoc in 1921].
Jane Owen, born about 1853 in Llanengan, on 1861 in Llandegwning, not found since
Ann Owen (1861) / Williams (thereafter), born about 1855 in Llanengan, died at Cefn Coch on 3 April 1892, aged 38
Mary Owen (1861) / Williams (thereafter), born about 1855 in Llanengan, died at Cefn Coch in 1903; had at least 2 illegitimate children, Mary on 21 Jan 1888, and John on 2 Feb 1891, died 15 Dec 1891, both born at Cefn Coch; Mary (senior) died there on 11 April 1903 aged 46
Catherine Williams, born about 1863 in Llandegwning, possibly a servant in Bryncroes in 1891 but not confirmed or anything else found; daughter Jane born 7 August 1886 at Cefn Coch (no father listed), Jane died aged 10 at Cefn Coch on 18 March 1897
Elizabeth Williams, born about 1865 in Llandegwning... married Evan Pritchard in Oct-Dec 1889, but has a son Robert Williams (no father listed) on 22 June 1890, at Cefn Coch. Could she have married Evan while pregnant (I don't want to buy the certificate but several detailed trees on ancestry have the same Evan and Elizabeth, though none has details on the marriage - i have messaged the tree owners) and left her son with her parents. The Prichard first child was born in mid 1891, all baptised at the Capel Uwchmynydd
Sons to complete the family:
Owen Owen (1861) / Williams (thereafter), born about 1858 in Llandegwning, married at the register office in Pwllheli
William Owen (1861) / Williams (thereafter), born about 1860 in Llandegwning, possible marriage to Catherine Jones (based on children's births)
Robert Williams, born about 1867 in Llandegwning, nothing found after 1881
John Williams, born about 1869 in Llandegwning, married an Ann Williams, died in 1947
Just hoping to finish the family if possible, and especially hoping it is the family i'm looking for, though luckily Llandegwning is a small place. Really grateful for the £3 certificates from the GRO.
Thanks for reading,
Deirdre