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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Down => Topic started by: Corinne McCrum on Tuesday 25 February 25 07:31 GMT (UK)
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Hi, my line of McCrums starts with Moses mcCrum (1790 - 1874) lived in Rienroe, Rathfriland, as did his ancestors until my grandad Samuel McCrum's siblings sold the smallholding in the 1950s.
I can't see from all all the Newry Mccrum records the relation with other McCrums in the area but they obviously were related. It seems that McCrums were like Smiths in that area at that time!
I have found that in Poltalloch in Argylshire there is a stone with the name McCrum in Ogham (Celtic/Gaelic language) and I believe others came from Whithorn, SW Scotland.
Any links known about the origins of the McCrums in Scotland?
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Hi, my line of McCrums starts with Moses mcCrum (1790 - 1874) lived in Rienroe, Rathfriland, as did his ancestors until my grandad Samuel McCrum's siblings sold the smallholding in the 1950s.
I think you mean descendants?
Ancestors are the previous, earlier, generations
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Oooops, more haste less speed & it was early is my excuse!
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I would like to find the link with these McCrums: Robert Garmany McCrum (1827-1915), of Milford House, County Armagh, High Sheriff of County Armagh, 1889, wedded, in 1864, Anne Eliza Riddall, of Armagh, and had issue,
WILLIAM McCrum, his heir, invented the penalty kick, (1865-1932)
Harriette McCrum, b 1867.
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I would like to find the link with these McCrums: Robert Garmany McCrum (1827-1915), of Milford House, County Armagh, High Sheriff of County Armagh, 1889, wedded, in 1864, Anne Eliza Riddall, of Armagh, and had issue,
WILLIAM McCrum, his heir, invented the penalty kick, (1865-1932)
Harriette McCrum, b 1867.
Not much different than tracing your own line really. Just start a family tree for them and see if you can find a connection.
Marriage gives Robert's father as William McCrum a linen manufacturer-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1864/11607/8272066.pdf
Robert was the informant when his father William died-
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1879/06531/4881835.pdf
Unfortunately William left no Will-
Letters of Administration of the personal estate of William M'Crum late of Millford County Armagh Esquire deceased who died 6 February 1879 at same place were granted at Armagh to Robert Garmany M'Crum of Millford (Armagh) aforesaid Esquire the Son of said deceased.
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I think I'll probably need to go back to Scotland or when McCrums first came to Ireland. Good idea re building their family tree but that seems intrusive as it isn't my family. Also, the current Robert McCrum is an author, his dad Michael McCrum, who I met was Vice-Chancellor of Cambridge Univ so it seems like I'm celebrity hunting but actually I'm more interested in the joint Scottish origins.
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This blog gives the known info: https://lordbelmontinnorthernireland.blogspot.com/2014/05/milford-house.html
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First you need to check in IRELAND for all possible clues before trying to link into any Scottish records. Not sure why you think researching the other family is intrusive- surely it's no different than using DNA to establish connections to other possible relatives.
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It's because you have to agree to someone else contacting you re their DNA linking with yours. For a famous family, there is no breadcrumb trail, which seems like they don't want it tracked. I did try searching on my Ancestry account & no joy for any of them which is surprising.
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You are probably not looking looking in the right places. Ancestry is actually the very last site I would use for Irish research.
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I would love to learn from you. I am definitely an amateur and live in England. I find Ancestry most helpful for the hints of matches from others as so many use it. And what i've found from DNA.
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You need to search Irish sources for Irish research. Newspapers are often a good source (just make sure the database you are using actually has papers that cover the area and period you want to research). Indexes to Will (and in may cases for N.I. counties the wording from the Will Books is on PRONI's site). Also, have a look under Irish resources (both for all Ireland and for any county of interest). Many of the links are broken and I can no longer update them but still quite a few still work.
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I find Ancestry most helpful for the hints of matches from others as so many use it.
Ancestry is useful for England, USA, Canada. Virtually all it's Irish collections are second hand from other sites that are free and we were familiar with using, before Ancestry later added them also as web collections. Census, civil records, all PRONI's collections, Belfast Burials.
Findmypast as it has newspapers is of more benefit than Ancestry.
Many users fail to appreciate the massive holes and gaps in church records for the 1800's and gleefully find and attach a R.C baptism for a Bernard Shaw despite him marrying in a Presbyterian church 50 or 80 miles away 22 years later. Evaluate and make your own decision before using.
DNA does not prove the accuracy of historical research it proves a link to someone living today even if they have selected the wrong ancestors.
Rathfriland is mostly in the Civil Parish of Drumgath https://www.rosdavies.com/PHOTOSwords/DrumgathAll.htm partly in Drumballyroney
Rienroe is not a townland.
Moses McCrum died 1874 in Cullion, Clonallan Civil Parish https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/deaths_returns/deaths_1874/020655/7247755.pdf registered by his son David.
here https://www.townlands.ie/down/iveagh-upper-upper-half/clonallan/clonallan-upper/cullion/
A David was living there 1901 http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/pages/1901/Down/Upper_Clonallan/Cullion/1250478/ and had a son Samuel (13). A John there had a son Samuel Mills McCrum also 13. Both Presbyterian.
The nearest Presbyterian churches would have been Hilltown (in Clonduff) or Rathfriland. No Presbyterian registers in the civil parishes date back to 1790, Clonduff (Hilltown) don't exist before 1845, and Rathfriland had 3 various start dates.
Refer to PRONI's guide to church registers for what records survive for his denomination, also consider Church of Ireland, over half lost for Ireland 1922.
Don't use the BMD indexes on Ancestry they have been superseeded now for many years by the register images and Newry Registration District is too big an area.
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Thanks so much, I've been to the cottage in Cullion, Clonallan civil parish, that was in the family for 160+ years.
To be honest because we don't have townlands over here, I'm not really clear what a townland is.
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Hi, my line of McCrums starts with Moses mcCrum (1790 - 1874) lived in Rienroe, Rathfriland, as did his ancestors until my grandad Samuel McCrum's siblings sold the smallholding in the 1950s.
I can't see from all all the Newry Mccrum records the relation with other McCrums in the area but they obviously were related. It seems that McCrums were like Smiths in that area at that time!
I have found that in Poltalloch in Argylshire there is a stone with the name McCrum in Ogham (Celtic/Gaelic language) and I believe others came from Whithorn, SW Scotland.
Any links known about the origins of the McCrums in Scotland?
I think you will possibly need DNA teting to discover whether there is any relationship with others of the same surname.
It depends which website one visits rying to discover origins and meanings of places and surnames.
For instance: there's the famous "Crumlin Road" in Ireland:-
The meaning = Crumlin (from Irish Cromghlinn, meaning 'crooked glen') is a village in County Antrim, Northern Ireland.
When surnames were initially given (circa 1068) many people chose to be known by their occupation, such as "a smith" or the place they lived in and "Crum", "Crummy", Crumby" can be found in Ireland and Scotland; the meaning is "crooked" which could either mean the person was crooked, or crippled, or they lived on the banks of a river where the river bent.
"Mac/Mc" means "son of", which could indicate that the father of MacCrum might have been an important person in 1068.
Crum is both an English and Scottish surname. It has two different and distinct meanings. The medieval English name means crooked or bent. The Scots Gaelic Ghille Chruim, means crippled or servant and or crippled servant.
Other roots chatters might have more suggestions.
Good luck
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I'm not really clear what a townland is
Inportant as recorded in all historical records as peoples residence. As there are the maps of them on Townlands.ie and logainm.ie and databases to assist with correct spellings for https://www.swilson.info/db/townlanddbs.php you just look them up or look at the list under the civil parish.
In England you have Parishes in Counties, just as in Ireland with hamlets and villages within. Townlands are a smaller division of counties and used instead of hamlets or individual farm names.
Understanding Land Divisions in Ireland https://presbyterianhistoryireland.com/our-services/family-history/
https://www.irish-genealogy-toolkit.com/Irish-land-divisions.html
You can largely ignore Baronies as they became pretty much unused on paperwork after 1838, but Towlands ARE important appearing on civil BMD's and census and still appear on peoples Rates Bills (Council Tax) and are making a reappearence on rural street signs below the road name. Many rural roads as on google maps were only named c.1970 prior to that the postman used the surname and Townland.
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Family also discussed 2020 in
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=767777.msg6945568#msg6945568 and replies where I have added an answer to your Griffiths Plot location query.
Similar to Elwyn's sentiment about the Carnmoney McCrums (and varied spellings as you have on Griffiths valuation revisions by officials) I would have a reason other than surname & curiousity to spent time investiging the the family in Timothy William Ferres' blog. They were of different backgrounds and county/parish going back to the mid to late 1700's and Ancestry DNA won't identify matches any further back eg in Scotland. I would stick to those in the same and adjoining parishes in the early 1800's following more definite family moves by Moses' decendents to Newry, Belfast, UK or USA etc as mentioned in Moses's will + his ancesters.
McCrums were in Cullen near Mayobridge before Moses eg John 1788 per PRONI Freeholders and others various dates same dataset.
and a Robert died c.1778 per http://census.nationalarchives.ie/search/dw/details.jsp?id=356192 and PRONI Will index though only his name index survives, the Will having been lost 1922.
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/information-and-services/public-record-office-northern-ireland-proni/search-archives-online
Downshire Papers in PRONI may have original Leases in eCat.
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/publications/introduction-downshire-papers
Five Newry newspaper titles are on Findmypast and British Newspaper Archive together spanning 1829 to 2004.
As an aside where/what is Rienroe?
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My Great Grandmother was Annie McCrum born in Scotland 1873 and died in 1957. Her parents were William McCrum and Susan Marr. William was born in Ireland in 1849 and died in Scotland in 1913. His parents were John McCrum and Jane Reynolds (maybe married in Ireland on the 23rd of May 1844) who were both born in Ireland and died in Scotland and I suspect this was the 1st generation to arrive in Scotland. From what else I can find Williams parents were William McCrum and Ann Edwards who would be my 4th Great Grandparents who were both born in Ireland but i don't have any documents to support this infomation. Myself and my mum have both had our DNA tested and can help with anything else I have.
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Hi
I'm also looking for McCrum in my ancestry.
My GG Grandmother born Eliza Anne Burns 12/8/1842 and baptised 16/8/1842. at 3rd Rathfriland Presbyterian and daughter to Joseph Cowan and Jane McCrum.
I have also found her sisters and brothers births in Rathfriland.
Eyla married Samuel Cowan in Newry 1865 they stayed in Newry (various streets James Street, Talbot street, Cowan Street, Stream Street) before moving to the district of Anderston, Glasgow sometime after 1880.
Her name variants are Elizabeth / Eyla or Eliza depending on different documents
I am interested in finding out anything more of her mother and father Jane McCrum and Joseph Burns. :)
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Eyla married Samuel Cowan in Newry 1865....
For reference-
Marriage record - Samuel Cowan and Eliza Burns - 22 October 1865 at Newry Parish Church.
Her father Joseph Burns, a labourer. Eliza of full age (21 yrs and over) and a spinster.
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/files/civil/marriage_returns/marriages_1865/11589/8264710.pdf
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Thank you Kiltaglassan
I do have that marriage certificate.
I’m interested in finding out more about Elya Burns mother and father Jane McCrum and Joseph Burns .
😃