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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => London and Middlesex => Topic started by: izonme on Saturday 22 February 25 23:10 GMT (UK)
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• Unknown Birthname
• Male
• Born in Lambeth, London. possibly Oct-Dec 1918
• Possibly adopted, Mother possibly died from childbirth (which is how I think he is born in 1918).
• Mother Maiden name is Dyer, but i'm unsure if this changes if he was adopted from birth
• Still alive in 1965 and still reside in Lambeth at this time.
• Parents: Daisy Amy Bellringer (Dyer) and Laurence Edgar Bellringer
I recently found out my dad's father isn't his biological father through a DNA test. I found a match who was my dads 1st cousin which I thought was strange since both my grandparents are only children. She didn't know her dad had a brother. Anyway, together we came to an idea that my biological grandfather was adopted from birth due to the mothers possible death from childbirth. However it probably means he was adopted from the hospital, I guess? I'm thankful that I found this match as she was able to help fill out my tree, but the only person missing in my tree is my biological grandfather :/
Is there anything I can do to try and find this grandfather? I've tried to narrow down people born in his birth year. He was born in London but I don't suppose they would just have adoption records from that long ago and just give it to me? Even if they didn't sign an Adoption record, if he was applying for jobs or signing for the war, would he have had to request an Adoption certificate?
It's really frustrating that my tree is filled but my grandfather's name is blank. Any ideas, please?
I have taken an Ancestry test, imported DNA to MyHeritage and GEDMatch and plan to do 23&Me for a final chance.
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I see that Daisy indeed died in 1918 aged 34, but there is no sign of a birth in the same quarter.
You could obtain a copy of her death certificate, a digital copy only costs £3 and will confirm date and cause of death.
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/menu.asp
The other option is that this person was older; born perhaps ahead of the marriage?
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When did Daisy and Laurence marry?
Are there any Dyer male births in that area close to 1918 to investigate.
What date of birth does he have on the 1939 register?
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Welcome to Rootschat
The Bellringer/Dyer marriage was 1910 and there appears to have been 2 children born - Olivia Frances b Southwark 1911 & Laurence Roy b 1916 Lambeth. The marriage cert is on Ancestry & Daisy's father was a Police Inspector
Laurence R Bellringer mmn Dyer June qtr 1916 Lambeth 1D 738
He & his sister are with Laurence snr in 1921
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Death
Roy Laurence Bellringer b 6.3.1916 died November 1998 Bridgend Glamorgan 104A 8611A
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There’s a George W Dyer mothers name Dyer born Lambeth 1915
Is Daisy definitely your male births mother :-\. Could it be she had an unmarried sister who was his mother.
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He might still have the same first name - what was it?
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Whilst there is only one birth for a Roy L Bellringer - there are 3 marriages showing on freebmd between 1942 & 1961 - one in Wales
www.freebmd.org.uk
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Lawrence (not Laurence) Edgar Bellringer b 14.1.1883 died Sept qtr 1969 Ruthin 8A 1681
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Your opening post suggests that your father & the father of the first cousin were brothers.
Only one male child was born to the 1910 Bellringer/Dyer marriage & Laurence Bellringer snr did not remarry
How did you arrive at Laurence & Daisy being the parents of your father?
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Yes I am a little confused myself how you got to Daisy as his mother but Laurence not his father.
If you can elaborate that would be great.
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My DNA match states that this match is my 1st cousin 1x removed, or so my Dad's 1st cousin which suggests that her dad and my grandfather were brothers. I also have a match with her niece which states she is my 2nd cousin. If this match didn't state that she is my 2nd cousin, I would have possibly have said that maybe she is my Aunt rather than 1st cousin 1x removed. I also have 3 other matches in my DNA matches with the surname Bellringer so I'm almost certain that Lawrence is my great-grandfather.
My mum's 1st cousins also have done a DNA test but this match who is presumably my Dad's 1st cousin has higher Centimorgans and DNA percentage than me and my mum's cousins.
I asked this match about her dad (Roy) and his sister, Olivia. She believes Olivia did not have any children but Roy is her dad. My grandfather Lawrence Edgar Bellringer relocated to Wales after Daisy Dyer passed away. I also have quite a few matches when I type Dyer into surname matches. Which is why I believed Daisy is my great-grandmother. Hope this helps a bit further.
I'll have a look at GRO records to see if Daisy's death certificate is on there.
Thanks for helping
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I have just purchased the death certicate. Can't really decipher what it says but I think
11th November 1918
Female, 34 years
Daisy Bellringer
of 12 Foxley Road
Wife of Laurence Edgar Bellringer (costermonger)
Reason: 1) Disseminated Sclerosis 2) ???? Paraplegia
Certificated Registered: 13th November 1918
I believe this is what it states, but doesn't state childbirth as far as I can tell. I have attached the section to see if anyone can transcribe it further.
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I'd agree with your reading of 1) and 2) is spastic paraplegia.
A bit of googling suggests a muscular/nervous system condition similar to MS
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Olivia Frances Bellringer married in Essex 1941 to Charles F Wright. No children showing
Olivia Frances Wright b 28.9.1911 died in Glamorgan in 1972
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Legal adoption did not come into force in England until the late 1920’s so the chance of finding any paperwork would be small.
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I'll go through my matches and see if I can find any further relations through Dyer line. But I am seeing a DNA match which I do not recognise. It states he is my grandparent's cousin or half great-grand uncle. However, the DNA match which could be my dad's 1st cousin, is not a shared match with this person.
If Olivia was born in 1911 and Laurence Roy was born in 1916, having a 5 year gap during this time was uncommon so there could have been a birth during those 5 years, if not possibly a baby out of wedlock with another woman
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Summary
Laurence & Daisy had only 2 children - Olivia Frances b 1911 & Laurence Roy b 1916 - both of whom can be found on the 1921 with father Laurence. A five year age gap is not that uncommon - Daisy may have miscarried in between births
At some point Laurence Roy decided to switch his christian names around & become Roy Laurence
All of the above info is in earlier replies.
Your opening post suggests your father & the father of the first cousin were brothers but your reply 11 says that "her dad & my grandfather" were brothers which suggests 2 different generations.
Her father appears to be Laurence Roy Bellringer b 1916 who - as stated - did not have a brother
You are now suggesting that Laurence Edgar Bellringer could have fathered an illegitimate child??
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My dad's biological dad and the dad of this match could be brothers. Me and the match have 507 cM across 16 segments, 7% shared DNA, Longest segment 100 cM. And Ancestry states she's my 1st cousin 1x removed (Dad's 1st cousin) or my half-grandaunt. However based on a centimorgans chart 500CM could be half-Aunt, Half Cousin, Half Cousin 1x removed, 1st Cousin 2x removed. So I guess Half-Aunt is still in the picture. Rather than an illegitimate child of Laurence Edgar Bellringer, but it still could be an option
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I will send a message to this match and ask when her dad moved to Wales. Olivia and Roy relocated to Wales but my dad was born in 1966, London. This information could help understand a little bit more.
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Laurence Roy Bellringer married at least 3 times
1942 Westminster
1946 Caernarfon
1961 Essex
There are 2 newspaper articles mentioning him but I don't have a subscription to view them
27. 5.1939 Greater London Evening Standard - topic - Crime
In 1927 Laurence Edgar Bellringer is on the ER for Lambeth & is living alone
13.3.1987 Caernarfon & Denbigh Herald - topic unknown
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Still a bit confused, I thought the illegitimate child was from the Daisy not the Laurence or was that just a theory and it’s someone else :-\
Can you say his first name as that may have remained the same?
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Summary
Suspicion of grandfather not my biological grandfather due to people I have spoken to related to this grandfather does not have DNA match with me.
Unknown name of Biological Grandfather.
My dad born in 1966, Lambeth. His surname from birth certificate is the surname of my grandmothers marriage, not the biological father.
DNA match - Ancestry claims is 1st cousin 1x removed/half grand aunt (507 cM | 7% shared DNA across 16 segments)
DNA match - Niece of the match above, MyHeritage claims to be 2nd cousin. (282.2 cM |4% shared DNA across 6 segments)
Grandparents of match is:
Laurence Edgar Bellringer SNR (1883-1969)
Daisy Amy Dyer (Bellringer) (1885-11.11.1918) died of Disseminated Sclerosis, Spastic Paraplegia.
Laurence and Daisy married in 1910.
Children of Daisy/Laurence:
Olivia Frances b Southwark (1911-1972) - no children
Laurence Roy JNR b Lambeth (1916-1998) - father of DNA match
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Have you done a test with My Heritage or considered putting your Ancestry results on there.
Added - would this post be better on the DNA boards
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Ok, I'll also ask the match to put her results on MyHeritage and GEDMatch
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Roy had 2 sons to his second marriage born in Caernavon a year apart - 1947 & 1948
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Laurence Roy Bellringer married at least 3 times
1942 Westminster
1946 Caernarfon
1961 Essex
There are 2 newspaper articles mentioning him but I don't have a subscription to view them
27. 5.1939 Greater London Evening Standard - topic - Crime
In 1927 Laurence Edgar Bellringer is on the ER for Lambeth & is living alone
13.3.1987 Caernarfon & Denbigh Herald - topic unknown
1987 Caernarvon.
Only a small snippet for free.
May-September and local people were also going out later for a drink especially there was something good on television Mr Roy Bellringer the president of Meirionnydd LVA told the court There were no objections from the police who commented that the only difference ...
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Can we go back to “basics”. The info requested below is dependant on the people being deceased. If any are still living please do not post info about them - just say they are still living.
Your fathers name/birthdate & where he was born?
Do you have a copy of his birth cert - what were his parents names & what was his mothers maiden name?
Who DID you believe to be his “father” until the DNA test? Name/birth/place
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My Fathers name is David Christopher Lever, 23 February 1966, Lambeth, UK. (deceased). His Mothers name is Pauline Rita Howell. I believe the man who I believed was his father, is still alive so I won't disclose that.
According to a relative of the man who I believed to be his father, He said my grandmother and the man I believed was his father, lived in Blackfen, Sidcup, UK at some point. I do not have a copy of his birth certificate. I've contacted this person again to see if he can help with any info.
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The Lever/Howell marriage was in the Dec qtr 1965 Southwark & your father was b Feb 1966 Lambeth which means Pauline was pregnant when they married.
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By 1965 Laurence Bellringer snr & Roy were in Wales although they did previously have London connections
I think Pauline was b Southwark 1947
One of Roys sons was b 1947 but in Carnarvon & he married in Wales in 1976
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There are only 4 males in that family.
Rule out Laurence snr - he was b 1883 & Pauline 1947
Rule out Roy - b 1916 as he was married & living in Wales
Which leaves either of Roys sons. Far more likely given they were b 1947 & 1948. Proving either was in the London area in 1965 could be tricky as both married in Wales but after 1965
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I would say that it could be a possibility. Ancestry states my match could be my 1st cousin 1x removed or my half-great aunt. If her mother is from one of his other marriages it would mean she would be my dads half-aunt and then my half-great aunt. It could be a possibility, i’ll send her a message and see if she has any info
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... Proving either was in the London area in 1965 could be tricky as both married in Wales but after 1965 ...
Pauline could have been in North Wales. Butlins/Pontins for example...
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According to Information about Roy Bellringer's World War II service, after the war he ran a hotel near Snowdonia, North Wales, so I would say this is quite possible
... Proving either was in the London area in 1965 could be tricky as both married in Wales but after 1965 ...
Pauline could have been in North Wales. Butlins/Pontins for example...
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the 1939 newspaper article was about a Roy Lawrence Bellringer age 23 a Proffesional wrestler stole a cape and was bound over for 2 years.
there was also a theft of wine and ale same year
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That's the son b 1916 - born Laurence Roy but switched his christian names around
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I purchased the Ethnicity Estimate on MyHeritage, it says 30% Welsh, and for this much Welsh I would assume I would have a grandparent who is Welsh. I believe I have a DNA match with the daughter of the son born in 1948 but the centimorgans is only 280 which is more of a 1st cousin 1x removed, I think
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Snippet from the papers.
trophies for club Mr. Roy Bellringer, mine host of Pengwern Hotel. Ffestiniog. is presenting a trophy and replicas to Gwynedd Sporting Club as a tribute to his tither. Mr. Tom Bellringer. who is 87 and in poor health. Mr. Bellringer. senior, using the name ...
Published: Thursday 01 February 1968
Newspaper: North Wales Weekly News
County: Denbighshire, Wales
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Laurence Roy Bellringer aka Roy Laurence Bellringer was the son of Laurence Edgar Bellringer
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Laurence Roy Bellringer aka Roy Laurence Bellringer was the son of Laurence Edgar Bellringer
It does say in the article "using the name " maybe someone with full access can see the rest of the page.
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https://funeral-notices.co.uk/notice/pendragon/5236581
Obituary of Karen Bellringer. B 1963.
daughter of Roy Bellringer of The Pengwern
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Laurence Roy Bellringer aka Roy Laurence Bellringer was the son of Laurence Edgar Bellringer
It does say in the article "using the name " maybe someone with full access can see the rest of the page.
These things are sent to try us!
https://www.findmypast.co.uk/image-share/e57609d5-ecdb-41e3-8327-b40bda91744e
But death registered as L.E.
Deaths Sep 1969 (>99%)
BELLRINGER Lawrence Edgar 14Ja1883 Ruthin 8a 1681
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Tom Ringer was born in 1883 and died in 1969, lines up with the birth and death of Laurence Edgar
https://www.olympedia.org/athletes/3487
Laurence Roy Veterans website says he was in the No 2 Commando Boxing Team
https://www.commandoveterans.org/RoyBellringer2Commando
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basically the Newspaper article does say father Thomas Bellringer matches about Olympics and says Roy followed his fathers footsteps and boxed and was part of Jack Solomans promotions
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I used DNA painter to map out the tree and known matches, and at the moment I think the strongest possiblity considering ages is that the boy born 1947 (half-sibling to one of your matches, and full uncle to the other), is your grandfather.
https://dnapainter.com/tools/probability
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Joroses conclusion is good
You would have connections to the Dyer surname as it would be this boys grandmother
# & your main match would be your aunt ( or half aunt)
Her niece your half cousin ?
Next step is to check for any connections to Roy's mother's surname ...this would probably be your Welsh grandparent.
Have you arranged your distant matches into locations ?
I would add a colour code for all those with Welsh origins (useful if no tree or locked or unlinked )
Plus a colour code for that lady's mother's surname .
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Is the boy born 1947 the father of your other match ?
Another possibility is that Roy
(your great grandfather) Had another son outside marriage but check out the other theories first .
# DNA match suggestions don't give priority to relationships that are half
So 2nd cousin is the relationship suggested but half cousin is just as likely ( sharing 1 set of greatgrandparent )
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Just updating that I still haven't found my biological grandfather- still looking even 1 month after posting this topic. I gathered the possibility of my grandfather being either the son born in 1947 and 1948 and checked their mother and her maiden name through my DNA matches, and still found nothing. The son born in 1947 passed away about 3 years ago according to my DNA match who is his sister. So as he has passed away, if anyone wants to check him further. I tried to look for Welsh DNA matches and I don't have any matches who are Welsh, and I do not have his mothers maiden name in my DNA matches (Mason). But I do have Roy's family surname in my DNA matches, (Bellringer, Dyer).
I have a close match that could possibly help out here. This match is not related to the DNA match who is Roy's Daughter, but both are through my dads paternal side. Ancestry said it's possible he could be 1st cousin 2x removed or half great-uncle, however, I sent him a message and he hasn't responded. However I also have a few matches that are directly from a Thomas Edward Killick and a Mabel Parfitt.
It is still a possibility Roy had another child considering it says half great-aunt for Roy's daughter, but It's also a possibility Laurence Edgar had another child due to the 4th matched listed below:
Roy's Daughter
Shared DNA: 7.0% | 507 cM
Shared segments: 16
Largest segment: 100 cM
Predicted: 1st Cousin 1x Removed or half great-aunt
Unknown Match related to biological grandfather
Shared DNA: 5% |325 cM
Shared segments: 12
Largest segment 59 cM
Predicted: Predicted: 1st cousin 2x removed or half great-uncle
Note: Not a Match with matches linked with Roy
Roy's Granddaughter
Shared DNA: 4.0% | 282.2cm
Shared segments: 6
Largest segment: 100.9 cM
Predicted: 2nd Cousin (MyHeritage)
Unknown cousin connection related to Roy - confused as Laurence Edgar only had children, Olivia and Roy according to sources: (First match doesnt know him either)
Shared DNA: 3% | 185 cM
Shared segments: 7
Largest segment: 90 cM
Predicted: 2nd cousin 1x removed or 1st cousin 2x removed (Ancestry)
Note: Related to Thomas Edward Killick (1900) and a Mabel Parfitt (1897)
Unknown Match related to biological grandfather
Shared DNA: 2% | 150cM
Shared segments: 7
Largest segment 58 cM
Predicted: 2nd cousin 1x removed or half 1st cousin 2x removed
Note: Not a Match with matches linked with Roy
Unknown Match related to biological grandfather
Shared DNA: 2% | 105cM
Shared segments: 7
Largest segment 31 cM
Predicted: half 2nd cousin 1x removed or 2nd cousin 2x removed
Note: Not a Match with matches linked with Roy
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I would say that it could be a possibility. Ancestry states my match could be my 1st cousin 1x removed or my half-great aunt. If her mother is from one of his other marriages it would mean she would be my dads half-aunt and then my half-great aunt. It could be a possibility, i’ll send her a message and see if she has any info
Have you got the marriage cert of your gran Pauline in late 1965 in Southwark? It seems she was several months pregnant at the time she married, if you dad was born Feb 1966. The marriage cert will give where she was living in the last quart of 1965. I would imagine the legal father is named on your dad's 1966 birth certificate, as opposed to the biological father.
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My gran was born in Bermondsey - my dad was born in Lambeth which is around the same area. I do still think that Roy Bellringer is most likely to be my great-grandfather due to the DNApainter
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SOLVED!!!
I have found my grandfather, thank you everyone who helped in the thread. I have been speaking to my grandfather since today.
His dad is indeed Roy Bellringer, he was born before Roy moved to Wales.