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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Topic started by: asingardenof on Sunday 16 February 25 18:24 GMT (UK)
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I could do with some help solving a mystery, as my head is spinning from thinking about this so I’d really welcome other perspectives. This is a long one, with some disturbing possibilities (TW for possible sexual assault). Our mystery starts with Charles Eden, a packer from Liverpool...
Based on the certainty of the place and date of his son George’s birth in Liverpool in 1878 I found George's mother’s maiden name was Bell. George’s marriage certificate gives his father’s name and profession as Charles Eden, a packer. Further research leads to marriage records for Charles Eden and Mary Ann Bell in Liverpool in 1867. Charles’ father is named as William Eden, a carver. So far so good.
At this point Ancestry gives me a hint that Charles’ mother might be a Charlotte Sandle, and sure enough there’s a marriage record for William Eden, a carver and gilder, to Charlotte Sandle, in 1841. William’s father is named as Christopher Eden, a carver.
This is where things start getting murky.
In the 1841 census Christopher Eden, a carver and gilder, is living with his wife Maria and several children, including William, aged 15 and born in Liverpool, implying that his birth was in 1826, which is backed up by baptism records from November 1826.
Ancestry suggests a hint for the 1851 census for Charlotte and Charles, with Charlotte listed as a 30-year-old widow, and Charles aged 4, implying a birth date of 1847. Also on the census are several other children, including 16-year-old Thomas. If this is to be believed it would suggest that Charlotte was around 14 when she gave birth to him, and William around 9, which would be both physically improbable and quite disturbing.
Assuming that this Charlotte is the right one though I looked for William’s death certificate, and sure enough there’s one for William Eden, a 24-year-old carver and gilder, in 1847, and whose father Christopher had been present at his death. That would move his year of birth to 1823, which makes things a bit less icky as that would imply William was around 12 at the time of Thomas's birth.
Wanting some more answers I looked up Thomas Eden and found a marriage record from 1875 for a 30-year-old Thomas Christopher Eden, whose deceased father was William Eden, a carver and gilder, putting Thomas’s year of birth at 1845, which would make things considerably less icky. One could be forgiven for assuming at this point that the census taker or enumerator in 1851 made a mistake and recorded Thomas’s age as 16 not 6.
Things get very murky though when we look at the 1851 census, where we find a 6yo Thomas Christopher Eden living with his father, a 43yo William Eden in Liverpool, a carver and gilder born in Wigan (so year of birth in c.1818) who is married to Eliza (née McGregor). Looking at the 1844 marriage certificate for William and Eliza reveals a deceased father for William: Thomas, a cooper. This family was also living together in 1861. Apart from those two census entries there is no record I can find of a William Eden having been born in or around Wigan around 1818.
If you’re still with me I have a couple of thoughts of what might be going on, but neither is entirely satisfactory.
The first is that William might have been a bigamist and lying to Eliza about his age and background. Both Williams got married within a few years of each other, and have families with several children of about the same age. But if that were to be the case then what about the death certificate for William son of Christopher in 1847? I'd considered a faked death, but this hypothesis falls down because a) the death was certified, and b) William would still have been trading as a carver and gilder in Liverpool, which if he’d faked your own death would have been a bit brazen.
Or maybe there really were two William Edens working as carvers and gilders in Liverpool at the same time, one born in Wigan in 1818 and the other in Liverpool five (or eight) years later. If so that would be an amazing coincidence, but that means we really would are left with the situation where a 12yo (or 9yo!) William and 14yo Charlotte get pregnant in 1834/5, before they were married in 1841, although here there is also another disturbing possibility that this William isn't Charlotte's son Thomas's real father, and that Charlotte had been raped when she was 14.
Or maybe there’s another explanation. I’m open to suggestions.
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welcome to Rootschat.
Just a thought, there is another child John (aged 10) on 1851 census also named as a son, born 1840/42. As the next child Charlotte was born in 1st quarter of 1842, it seems likely that John was born before the marriage in 1841, is he the child of William and Charlotte? Is he the brother of Thomas? and does his birth provide any clue. There doesn't seem to be a matching birth for a John Eden or Sandle.
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I don't think there is reason to assume Thomas is the son of Charlotte. 'Son' can just as easily mean stepson, adopted son or foster son. Had William been married before?
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Welcome to Rootschat.
With regard to son John, there is a marriage in 1862
John Sandle, full age, Labourer, Circus Street - father John Sandle, umbrella maker.
Sarah Williamson, Circus Street - father John Williamson, porter
Witnesses - Charlotte Eden and ? Barrand
Whilst this might not ‘prove’ that John Sandle was his father, it might indicate that William was not.
*1851, Charlotte was an umbrella maker. She also gave John Sandle as her father but he was a stone mason.
Another thing to note is that 1841 census was 6th June and William and Charlotte married 7th June.
Have you found Charlotte in 1841?
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In the 1841 census Christopher Eden, a carver and gilder, is living with his wife Maria and several children, including William, aged 15 and born in Liverpool, implying that his birth was in 1826, which is backed up by baptism records from November 1826.
Everyone over 15 was supposed to have their ages rounded down in 1841. William and Jane could have each been aged anywhere between 15 and 19 and as far as I can see there is no indication of how old each of them was when baptised.
Wanting some more answers I looked up Thomas Eden and found a marriage record from 1875 for a 30-year-old Thomas Christopher Eden, whose deceased father was William Eden, a carver and gilder, putting Thomas’s year of birth at 1845.
Perhaps one of these birth registrations is incorrect and should be 'Thomas' instead of William.
EDEN, WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SANDELL
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 456
EDEN, WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SUNDELL
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 493
....and that Charlotte had been raped when she was 14.
That is a really bizarre conclusion to arrive at.
Debra :)
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Welcome to Rootschat.
With regard to son John, there is a marriage in 1862
John Sandle, full age, Labourer, Circus Street - father John Sandle, umbrella maker.
Sarah Wilkiamson, Circys Street x father John Williamson, porter
Witnesses - Charlotte Eden and ? Barrand
Whilst this might not ‘prove’ that John Sandle was his father, it might indicate that William was not.
*1851, Charlotte was an umbrella maker. She also gave John Sandle as her father but he was a stone mason.
Another thing to note is that 1841 census was 6th June and William and Charlotte married 7th June.
Have you found Charlotte in 1841?
I've found that marriage record now, thanks for the tip. I'm going to suggest John Sandle is the same person because the witnesses to the marriage were Charles Barrand and Charlotte Eden, Charlotte Sandle's niece and her future husband, so I'm thinking the John Sandle who married Sarah Williamson was Charlotte Sandle's brother, and their father had a career change in the 21 years between Charlotte's and John's weddings.
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welcome to Rootschat.
Just a thought, there is another child John (aged 10) on 1851 census also named as a son, born 1840/42. As the next child Charlotte was born in 1st quarter of 1842, it seems likely that John was born before the marriage in 1841, is he the child of William and Charlotte? Is he the brother of Thomas? and does his birth provide any clue. There doesn't seem to be a matching birth for a John Eden or Sandle.
I've found a couple of people in that tree where the birth doesn't seem to have been registered and they weren't baptised, so if John wasn't either then that doesn't surprise me.
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Had William been married before?
Given he was only about 18 when he married Charlotte I doubt it.
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In the 1841 census Christopher Eden, a carver and gilder, is living with his wife Maria and several children, including William, aged 15 and born in Liverpool, implying that his birth was in 1826, which is backed up by baptism records from November 1826.
Everyone over 15 was supposed to have their ages rounded down in 1841. William and Jane could have each been aged anywhere between 15 and 19 and as far as I can see there is no indication of how old each of them was when baptised.
I confess I didn't know about the rounding down thing. How odd.
Wanting some more answers I looked up Thomas Eden and found a marriage record from 1875 for a 30-year-old Thomas Christopher Eden, whose deceased father was William Eden, a carver and gilder, putting Thomas’s year of birth at 1845.
Perhaps one of these birth registrations is incorrect and should be 'Thomas' instead of William.
EDEN, WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SANDELL
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 456
EDEN, WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SUNDELL
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 493
The William in 1844 is definitely William, but I don't think the 1846 one would be Thomas as it would be too late.
....and that Charlotte had been raped when she was 14.
That is a really bizarre conclusion to arrive at.
Debra :)
I did say my head was spinning, and apparently it lept to a wild conclusion. It made sense in my head yesterday XD
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Welcome to Rootschat.
With regard to son John, there is a marriage in 1862
John Sandle, full age, Labourer, Circus Street - father John Sandle, umbrella maker.
Sarah Wilkiamson, Circys Street x father John Williamson, porter
Witnesses - Charlotte Eden and ? Barrand
Whilst this might not ‘prove’ that John Sandle was his father, it might indicate that William was not.
*1851, Charlotte was an umbrella maker. She also gave John Sandle as her father but he was a stone mason.
Another thing to note is that 1841 census was 6th June and William and Charlotte married 7th June.
Have you found Charlotte in 1841?
On reflection, and without any evidence to back this up (yet), based on the potential ages of those involved the John who married Sarah might be Charlotte's nephew, and his father might be Charlotte's brother where they were in business together.
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Here is William Hayden - baptised Wigan to Parents Thomas (a cooper) and Margaret - 1st June 1817.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:N6N8-JX7?lang=en
There were siblings baptised as Eden
That would presumably rule out the William married to Eliza
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The William that married Eliza might be the gilder journeyman living in Mount Pleasant in 1841.
Piece: 560 Book: 11 Folio: 7 Page number: 7
Debra :)
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That looks likely, Debra, so I would say that the ‘amazing coincidence’ is just that.
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Hi
Yes looking at the 2 signatures for William who married in 1841 and William who married Eliza 1844 definitely not the same man. Yours has a big loop on the N.
The Barrand witness is probably a brother in law.
Charlotte Eden junior married Charles Barrand 25.12.1862 St Nicholas also of Circus St
Charles 1840-20.101865 and then Charlotte remarries.
Ciderdrinker
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Another marriage to peruse.
16th March 1874
August Sorensen, butcher, Virgil Street
Sarah Eden, full age, spinster, Circus Street - father William Christopher Eden, Carver
1881 3593 /141/8
August and Sarah are living in Virgil Street with
Charlotte Eden, 67 yrs Mother in Law, b Bath, Gloucestershire
1871 3790 /52/33
46 Circus Street
Sarah Eden 56 yrs Umbrella Maker b Somerset, Bath
Sarah 20 yrs Daughter in service b Liverpool
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There is a burial in 1890, Toxteth Cemetery fir:
Charlotte Eden, 73 yrs.
This gives a birth around 1817.
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Moving to Somerset.....
Charlotte Sandell bap Walcot St Swithins. 8th Jan 1815 daughter of John and Sarah of Avon Street . Father a Mason.
Tazzie
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Super find, Tazzie.
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You're certainly not the first to have come across a bigamist from Liverpool. -- No relation to yours, but my GGF apparently was from Liverpool, and was a fisherman who married my GGM in Lowestoft. He deserted my GGM and her children after around 17 years, had a warrant issued for his arrest, and was subsequently arrested and convicted of bigamy in Dundee! He has proved to be an elusive character with no verifiable records of either his birth or death.
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I've just found a tree for Charlotte's family but it does not follow her.
Father John died 1823
Mother was Sarah Gillard and they married in 1803.
Tree has sibling details.
Tazzie
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Alstark, this one now doesn’t seem to be a bigamist as we have found the two Williams.
Hopefully, we are gathering contrary evidence to the other speculations also.
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I've found a William Eden living in Rupert Street Liverpool in 1841.
HO 107/560/11 folio 7 page 7.
Age given as 25 and a gilder.
Tazzie
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Debra found the same one in reply #6.
Possibly the one from Wigan?
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Hi
Charlotte had been raped when she was 14
; I've seen several births / children where the mother was in her teens for her first child in my time perusing the census'. In my family a lot of the time when I count the months betweenn the first baby and the marriage it adds up to less than 9 or even where my great grandparents had their first child three months before marrying.
Many girls of that age nowadays are active in that way with pregnancy resulting on occasion - I'm pretty sure there were in the 19th century as well.
Nesta
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Debra found the same one in reply #6.
Possibly the one from Wigan?
Missed that sorry, reading too quickly.
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Oh it all adds to the story doesn't it.
If what we have found is the right family , according to that marriage, Charlotte had a daughter, Sarah.
I can't see them in 1861.
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Perhaps one of these birth registrations is incorrect and should be 'Thomas' instead of William.
EDEN, WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SANDELL
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 456
EDEN, WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SUNDELL
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 493
Debra :)
Rather than ‘Thomas’, I wonder if the second birth here is Charles - born abt 1846.
William b 1844 shows in later censuses.
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I've found that marriage record now, thanks for the tip. I'm going to suggest John Sandle is the same person because the witnesses to the marriage were Charles Barrand and Charlotte Eden, Charlotte Sandle's niece and her future husband, so I'm thinking the John Sandle who married Sarah Williamson was Charlotte Sandle's brother, and their father had a career change in the 21 years between Charlotte's and John's weddings.
I am sorry, I missed your various replies.
Later in this thread, you write that you think that John is Charlotte’s nephew.
My thoughts were that John Sandle is Charlotte’s son - John Eden in 1851.
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The William that married Eliza might be the gilder journeyman living in Mount Pleasant in 1841.
Piece: 560 Book: 11 Folio: 7 Page number: 7
Debra :)
Agreed, the William I'm interested in was still living at home in 1841.
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Debra found the same one in reply #6.
Possibly the one from Wigan?
I believe this is the case, yes.
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Perhaps one of these birth registrations is incorrect and should be 'Thomas' instead of William.
EDEN, WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SANDELL
GRO Reference: 1844 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 456
EDEN, WILLIAM
Mother's maiden surname: SUNDELL
GRO Reference: 1846 M Quarter in LIVERPOOL Volume 20 Page 493
Debra :)
Rather than ‘Thomas’, I wonder if the second birth here is Charles - born abt 1846.
William b 1844 shows in later censuses.
I think you're right. Both birth records have the father as William Eden, carver and gilder, and the mother being Charlotte Eden formerly Sandell (the "Sundell" is a transcription error), so it looks like William has probably been entered erroneously for Charles's birth.
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I've found that marriage record now, thanks for the tip. I'm going to suggest John Sandle is the same person because the witnesses to the marriage were Charles Barrand and Charlotte Eden, Charlotte Sandle's niece and her future husband, so I'm thinking the John Sandle who married Sarah Williamson was Charlotte Sandle's brother, and their father had a career change in the 21 years between Charlotte's and John's weddings.
I am sorry, I missed your various replies.
Later in this thread, you write that you think that John is Charlotte’s nephew.
My thoughts were that John Sandle is Charlotte’s son - John Eden in 1851.
I think I'm going to need to sit down with a pen and paper to work all this out!
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There is a burial in 1890, Toxteth Cemetery fir:
Charlotte Eden, 73 yrs.
This gives a birth around 1817.
This is definitely the right Charlotte. Her death certificate states she's the widow of William Eden, journeyman carver and gilder, with her address given as 22 Upper Warwick Street.
This was the address of her son Charles at his death in October 1889 which is when Charlotte was admitted to the workhouse, so I'm guessing she lived with him for a time, though he only lived there for about a year.
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It is a pity we can’t find Charlotte in 1861. I have searched so often.
The Circus Street address occurs often in the various records.
The burial record states that Charlotte died in the Workhouse - maybe because she was ill rather than a resident. Was Charles the informant?
1881 shows her living with her daughter Sarah. Sarah is shown as born about 1852. We have that 1871 census where Charlotte is recorded as Sarah (if it is correct) but 1861 would be so helpful in showing the family.
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It is a pity we can’t find Charlotte in 1861. I have searched so often.
The Circus Street address occurs often in the various records.
The burial record states that Charlotte died in the Workhouse - maybe because she was ill rather than a resident. Was Charles the informant?
1881 shows her living with her daughter Sarah. Sarah is shown as born about 1852. We have that 1871 census where Charlotte is recorded as Sarah (if it is correct) but 1861 would be so helpful in showing the family.
Agreed, that missing census would probably clear a lot of things up.
I found her workhouse record and it looks like she was admitted for bronchitis on 8th October 1889, probably a few weeks before Charles's death. The informant for her death was her son William Christopher (although it appears to be written W E Eden).
There is a Sarah Eden born around that time in Liverpool but her mother's maiden name is Wareing, and in any event she can't be William's daughter because he died in 1847.
What throws me as well is this marriage record of Sarah Eden of Circus St to August Sorensen in 1874, where her father is recorded as William Christopher Eden, a carver. I have no idea who that person is because William died in 1847, William from Wigan didn't have a daughter called Sarah. William Christopher wasn't born until around 1844 so would have been 9 at her birth, so if that is the right person possibly this Sarah was adopted? Every other instance of William Christopher I can find has him as a carter not a carver.
Ugh, this is doing my head in.
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People invented names or used other family names in records.
The two women are together as mother and daughter in 1871 and 1881.
Maybe Sarah was registered under a different name from a relationship or, since we can’t find a birth, she may have been taken in by Charlotte, as you say.
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People invented names or used other family names in records.
The two women are together as mother and daughter in 1871 and 1881.
Maybe Sarah was registered under a different name from a relationship or, since we can’t find a birth, she may have been taken in by Charlotte, as you say.
I've done a bit more digging and the residents of 46a Circus Street in 1861 were the Dignam family, originally of Dublin, whose daughter Mary was then 17. Two years later, Mary would marry William Christopher Eden, with both of their addresses given as Circus Street.
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Oh that’s a good connection. I had seen the Dignam name but didn’t go any further.
Liverpool Electoral Registers show Charlotte Eden there 1870/72.
Before that (late 60s, I think) women weren’t shown but not too sure about that.
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Actually I've misread that, it just says the Digman family are at no. 46, along with the Guyer family. There's no mention of anyone in the cellar, something that is definitely recorded for other properties along Circus Street. I'm going to tentatively suggest that Charlotte and her family might already be living in the cellar at 46a but didn't appear on the census, given that it was only two years later that William and Mary got married.
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Moving to Somerset.....
Charlotte Sandell bap Walcot St Swithins. 8th Jan 1815 daughter of John and Sarah of Avon Street . Father a Mason.
Tazzie
Nice one!
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1861 2693 /56/35
46 Circus Street
The Dignams look to be the main family with the ‘Guyers’.
The second family name looks to be McGuyer, rather than ‘Guyer’ so could be McGuire
Only some of the houses show ‘Cellar’ as the residence of other households as in number 44.
It may be that the McGuyers are living in the cellar or occupying a separate room and Charlotte and family have been omitted. Alternatively Charlotte and family were not there on census night.
Comparing 1871 to 1861, number 44 has several households, whereas 46 - just two - the O’Donnells and Sarah Eden, secondary.
1881, there are only two people at 46.
It doesn’t really help though.
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It was worth a try