RootsChat.Com
General => The Common Room => Topic started by: ljb1125 on Saturday 15 February 25 22:37 GMT (UK)
-
This one has me puzzled!
I am searching for the birth certificate of my great-great grandad Paul Edmund Vargues, who I believed was born somewhere between 1880 - 1885 (most likely 1884 as this is on his death certificate). What I know for sure about him is that he married Mabel Sarah Fletcher in 1913, they had 6 kids (including my great-grandmother), and then he died in October 1961.
What has me baffled is everything before that. My research had led me to believe he was from a large family, with 6 full siblings, including one with a similar name (Auguste Paul Edmund Vargues) that was born in 1873 and sadly died in 1882. This also reinforces the 1884 birth date as he would have been the first child born after the loss of Auguste, hence renaming.
This has been entirely unravelled by the fact that a UK birth certificate for Paul Edmund does not exist. I've searched for every time a 'Paul Edmund' appeared in a census record, and it does appear that in the earliest one (1901) he was boarding in a boy's home with Auguste's brother Edward who had the unique middle name of 'Stiebel'. Paul Edmund randomly claims this middle name in the next census (1911) where he also starts claiming to be from Walsall (spelt 'Warsaw') in Birmingham instead of from Chelsea, London as he did in the 1901 census.
Is this a case of stolen identity, made possible by my ancestor meeting Edward Stiebel (who was orphaned young) by chance? I cannot make the inconsistencies in the records make logical sense. The only other thing that might explain is that the Vargues family are from France, so it's possible Paul Edmund was simply born in France and I just haven't been able to locate the birth certificate yet. If anyone has suggestions on how to investigate this further, I'd love to hear them.
TIA for reading this convoluted mystery and for any help offered!
NB: If anyone does do some research on this please note that the father of all these people is also called Paul Edmond Vargues. He was born in France in 1838.
-
What is his birthyear & birthplace on the 1921 census
-
What is his birthyear & birthplace on the 1921 census
He is named as 'Paul Edmund Vargas' with birth year as 1880 and birthplace as Walsall, Staffs. His wife Mabel Sarah is also listed.
-
This was intended to be just a little to start you off because it is late. Paul the father and his first wife Jeanne Marcelline have an entry in the divorceindex for 1869 but I can't see a remarriage for either of them. Do you have any details of Susan his second wife? I suspect you will be dealing with misrecorded names as well as cross-Channel records. I see your Paul has two entries in 1911 -in Willesden where he lodges and in Fenny Stratford where he is visiting!
added - I didn't see him in 1921 but by 1939 he says 15th Jul 1881.
-
His full birthdate is on the 1939 register. Rootschat does not allow info only available via subscription to be given here
-
His full birthdate is on the 1939 register. Rootschat does not allow info only available via subscription to be given here
I have a copy of the 1939 register. My confusion is that, having checked on GRO and FreeBMD, no one with that name (or anything close to it) was born that year in the UK.
-
This was intended to be just a little to start you off because it is late. Paul the father and his first wife Jeanne Marcelline have an entry in the divorceindex for 1869 but I can't see a remarriage for either of them. Do you have any details of Susan his second wife? I suspect you will be dealing with misrecorded names as well as cross-Channel records. I see your Paul has two entries in 1911 -in Willesden where he lodges and in Fenny Stratford where he is visiting!
added - I didn't see him in 1921 but by 1939 he says 15th Jul 1881.
I have extensively researched Susan actually, I had hoped to locate a grave but unfortunately she died in an asylum and was buried in a public plot. Paul Edmond Sr had gone back to France and passed away himself by that time anyway. But you're right, they never officially married, although I have managed to locate most(?) of their kids.
Yes, the crossed wires with Paul Edmund Jr is confusing. Unsure of how to search French govt archives, I've exhausted Ancestry/FindMyPast/etc. He is listed on the 1921 census but surname is misspelt (and is claiming yet another slightly different DOB...)
-
Mother's maiden name Adkin?
Have you investigated Alexandre Jules Adkin Jan./Mar.1881 Westminster district?
-
Paul Edmond Vargues Adkins b Sept qtr 1884 Walsall 6b 741 see freebmd and also
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
No mothers maiden name so illegitimate
You can download a digital copy of his birth cert for £1.50
-
Where is everyone in 1891?
Added…and 1881?
-
This has been entirely unravelled by the fact that a UK birth certificate for Paul Edmund does not exist. I've searched for every time a 'Paul Edmund' appeared in a census record, and it does appear that in the earliest one (1901) he was boarding in a boy's home with Auguste's brother Edmund (listed as Edward) who had the unique middle name of 'Stiebel'. Paul Edmund randomly claims this middle name in the next census (1911) where he also starts claiming to be from Walsall (spelt 'Warsaw') in Birmingham instead of from Chelsea, London as he did in the 1901 census.
There is a 1919 shipping manifest on Family Search for Edward S Vargues. Address in England is his brother P.E. Vargues, Uplands, Coventry
So cannot have ‘taken his identity’
-
There is an Edward STIEBEL around at the right time. I think he has money.
In 1881 is unmarried, a retired West India merchant
Married by the 1891 but no children
-
This has been entirely unravelled by the fact that a UK birth certificate for Paul Edmund does not exist. I've searched for every time a 'Paul Edmund' appeared in a census record, and it does appear that in the earliest one (1901) he was boarding in a boy's home with Auguste's brother Edmund (listed as Edward) who had the unique middle name of 'Stiebel'. Paul Edmund randomly claims this middle name in the next census (1911) where he also starts claiming to be from Walsall (spelt 'Warsaw') in Birmingham instead of from Chelsea, London as he did in the 1901 census.
There is a 1919 shipping manifest on Family Search for Edward S Vargues. Address in England is his brother P.E. Vargues, Uplands, Coventry
So cannot have ‘taken his identity’
I'm not suggesting he has taken the identity of Edmund/Edward, I'm suggesting he's taken the identity of Auguste (who was deceased in 1882). Just odd that he randomly claimed Edmund's middle name in one of the censuses.
-
See reply 8
-
Here I think is the family in 1881:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-F5PJ?lang=en
Paul senior died 1 April 1902, Neuilly-sur-Seine, according to his England & Wales probate, which also mentions Helene Elizabeth Marguerite Vargues, spinster.
https://archives.hauts-de-seine.fr/ark:/74903/vtaa00b62b1778770a2/img:FRAD092_EC_2MIEC344_0378_P
His French death record, information given by his daughter Georgine Anne Vargues, mentions only his late wife Jeanne Mathilde Debacker.
https://earchives.le64.fr/archives-en-ligne/ark:/81221/r26448zrk65w3k/f865
- birth of a child Alice Suzan in Pau in 1879, specifically names her as illegitimate but recognised by her father.
table of succession and declaration (related to his estate in France), also only mentions first wife.
https://archives.hauts-de-seine.fr/ark:/74903/vta1128ea726f89a397/img:FRAD092_3Q_NEU_030_0189_C
https://archives.hauts-de-seine.fr/ark:/74903/vtabf82e6025fbce118/img:FRAD092_3Q_NEU_114_0043
-
Paul Edmond Vargues Adkins b Sept qtr 1884 Walsall 6b 741 see freebmd and also
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
No mothers maiden name so illegitimate
You can download a digital copy of his birth cert for £1.50
Thank you for this! How odd that he's the only one out of the siblings who didn't get Vargues as a surname (and the mother's surname is Adkin, not Adkins, wonder why that's different on the register...!). Technically all were illegitimate as Paul Edmond Sr and Susan never married. Wonder why he got singled out.
-
Here I think is the family in 1881:
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q273-F5PJ?lang=en
Paul senior died 1 April 1902, Neuilly-sur-Seine, according to his England & Wales probate, which also mentions Helene Elizabeth Marguerite Vargues, spinster.
https://archives.hauts-de-seine.fr/ark:/74903/vtaa00b62b1778770a2/img:FRAD092_EC_2MIEC344_0378_P
His French death record, information given by his daughter Georgine Anne Vargues, mentions only his late wife Jeanne Mathilde Debacker.
https://earchives.le64.fr/archives-en-ligne/ark:/81221/r26448zrk65w3k/f865
- birth of a child Alice Suzan in Pau in 1879, specifically names her as illegitimate but recognised by her father.
table of succession and declaration (related to his estate in France), also only mentions first wife.
https://archives.hauts-de-seine.fr/ark:/74903/vta1128ea726f89a397/img:FRAD092_3Q_NEU_030_0189_C
https://archives.hauts-de-seine.fr/ark:/74903/vtabf82e6025fbce118/img:FRAD092_3Q_NEU_114_0043
Thank you so much for this, the 1881 census and confirmation of Alice's birth in particular were great resources!
-
Paul Edmond Vargues Adkins b Sept qtr 1884 Walsall 6b 741 see freebmd and also
https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp
No mothers maiden name so illegitimate
You can download a digital copy of his birth cert for £1.50
Thank you for this! How odd that he's the only one out of the siblings who didn't get Vargues as a surname (and the mother's surname is Adkin, not Adkins, wonder why that's different on the register...!). Technically all were illegitimate as Paul Edmond Sr and Susan never married. Wonder why he got singled out.
Maybe it depended on who registered the birth. Birth certificates at that time didn't have a separate box for surname of the baby, only the forename(s). Thus, if a married couple registered the birth, the birth would be under that surname. If an unmarried mother registered the birth, the birth would be under her surname at the time. Some unmarried mothers did register births pretending they were married to the father. It may be that when he was registered, only his mother was able to attend the registration and she may have admitted to not being married to the father, who couldn't then be named without his consent.