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Wales (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Wales => Caernarvonshire => Topic started by: Eric Hatfield on Friday 14 February 25 23:13 GMT (UK)
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John Jones married in Australia in 1881. He gave the information that he was 34 and born in Navan, North Wales. I haven't found anywhere in North Wales named Navan, but there seem to be two possibilities.
(1) He was born in Nefyn in Caernarfonshire, sometimes anglicised to Nevin, and the Australian Clergyman heard it in John's Welsh accent as "Navan".
(2) I have been told by one person that "Navan" is a local abbreviation of Carnarvon, which is of course in North Wales.
Is anyone able to resolve this question please? Thanks.
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It definitely could be Nefyn.
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Nefyn
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Have you looked at the 1851 census. There are quite a few John Jones b.c.1847 +/- 2 in Nevin/Nefyn. Do you have his parents' names to check.
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Hi, and thanks.
The problem is that there are so many people with the same few names, as I raised on another thread (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=889122) recently. So inevitably there are many people who MIGHT be the ones I'm looking for, but difficult to distinguish them.
So I've looked at the 1851 & 1861 censuses without finding anything definitive (so far - every time I search I seem to find someone new!). But the most likely marriage of a Nefyn couple was in 1849, 2 years after he was apparently born. (Which may explain why he called himself by both his parents' surnames - John Griffith Jones.) But he could have been born then, to the same or a different father, so I need to search for John Jones as well as John Griffith.
So while I will keep searching, knowing of "Navan" ever did refer to Carnarvon, or never did, would help.
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The John Joneses are difficult - I sympathise. I have a few :-\
I assume he did not mention his father on his marriage license. His children's names might help.
Gadget
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He did name his parents - Hugh Jones & Jane Griffith, but there are many peope with those names.
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Have you found out when he arrived in Australia?
Is there anything on his death cert?
Names of his children?
Also, have you followed up the Jones/Griffith family after 1851/61, including siblings?
Gadget
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Have you found out when he arrived in Australia?
It was about 1869. (27 years in Australia at his death in 1896.)
Is there anything on his death cert?
Just the same info as at his marriage. Parents were Hugh Jones (farmer) and Jane Griffith (domestic).
Names of his children?
I have all the details of his children, but none of his siblings.
Also, have you followed up the Jones/Griffith family after 1851/61, including siblings?
I have several pages of lists of possible people in 1851 & 1861. But until I can be sure of which family is him, I can't know siblings. The problem is that every plausible person/family I have found has something against them. Maybe Hugh Jones wasn't a famer, or not married until after John was born, or John not present in census, not born in Nefyn, etc. Of course any of these can be simply errors in the record, but it means no-one stands out as definitely him/them. That's why I was trying to narrow down the choice by my question about "Navan".
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I see that others have made similar comments/suggestions as mine *
My opinion is Nefyn. As soon as I saw it in the heading, my thought was Nefyn.This is in the Pwllheli reg district. There are two registrations that might fit :
Dec quarter 1845 V 27 P 337
Mar quarter 1846 V 27 P 371
Both record Mother's name as Griffith. It might be worth getting these BCs to check.
*add - https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=889122.0
Gadget
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Navan is in Southern Ireland
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Lol-R
See Eric's other thread on this person
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=889122.0ee
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This baptism fits a lot of the criteria mentioned.
SS
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That looks like Trefriw~
https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CAE/Trefriw
More or less the opposite end of Caernarvonshire ::)
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Where did he live in Australia? Welsh newspapers can be quite good at reporting on the diaspora
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Death, 1896, Victoria
Jno Griffith Jones
Age 48
Father Hugh Jones
Mother Jane Griffith
Place of death Andersons Ck
Register no. 51/1896
Evelyn Observer, and South and East Bourke Record, 7 Feb 1896
ANDERSON'S CREEK.
John Griffith Jones, an old resident
miner, after only two days' illness, died
from inflammation of the lungs and
quinsy last Wednesday....
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/60693586
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I see we have not had an answer to the original query about whether Na(r)von could be a contraction of Carnarvon. I am not near enough to personally know the area but it doesn't 'feel' right. On my nearest coast they might shop in 'the Bay' (meaning Colwyn Bay) but I have never heard the three syllable Llandudno abbreviated. Elsewhere it seems more common to say 'the Llan'(used to roughly mean village) without specifying Llan-whichever is meant.
Gadget I think your area of Wales was further away still from Carnarvon but would you agree that it would be unlikely to be shortened to Narvon?
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I've not heard of Navan as being short for Caernarvon. I think we called it Ca'narvun or Car-nar-von or Cair -nar-von. However, I'm originally from Denbighshire.
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Nefyn would be Nev-in
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Thanks everyone for your interest.
There are two registrations that might fit :
Dec quarter 1845 V 27 P 337
Mar quarter 1846 V 27 P 371
Both record Mother's name as Griffith.
I have found one of these, and another similar. But they both name fathers with surname Griffith, suggesting that Jane was married and Griffith was her married name.
I suppose that her father could have been listed if no other father was named??
Navan is in Southern Ireland
Yes, but John Jones says he was from North Wales, so I have to work out what he meant by "Navan". So far it seems people here think that he meant Nefyn.
This baptism fits a lot of the criteria mentioned.
Yes, that was my idea for a while, especially as Hugh was a farmer as stated by John. But I found out that Jane was Jane Williams, not Griffith. It is possible to follow this family through the censuses, etc, because of the distinctive house name of Pontycawr (if I've got that right). It was a pity but I had to rule them out.
Where did he live in Australia? Welsh newspapers can be quite good at reporting on the diaspora
That's an interesting thought. He lived at Anderson's Creek, Diamond Creek, and mainly in Warrandyte, all near Melbourne in Victoria. Do you have a suggestion and/or a source of Welsh newspapers?
I see we have not had an answer to the original query about whether Na(r)von could be a contraction of Carnarvon. I am not near enough to personally know the area but it doesn't 'feel' right.
I've not heard of Navan as being short for Caernarvon. I think we called it Ca'narvun or Car-nar-von or Cair -nar-von. However, I'm originally from Denbighshire.
I'm starting to feel that the Nefyn explanation is more likely than the Carnarvon abbreviation explanation. Thanks.
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Hi
I live some 20 miles from Caernarfon and in my 60+ years have never heard it shortened to Narfon (?). I've heard people from the villages around "Dwi mynd i dre" which translates "I'm going to town" Dre translating into Town - this description is used a lot in this area usually being used to describe the nearest larger town !
I think its Nefyn (Nevin) add a odd accent to the speech and Nevin could easily be heard as Navan in my view.
You can't get much further east of Caernarvonshire - Trefriw is practically on the easterly border and Nefyn is on the North West coast. Nearly 50 miles away.
Nesta
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I'm glad you agree with me, Nesta.
I think I did some e.gs of pronunciations a few posts back :)
Gadget.
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I live some 20 miles from Caernarfon and in my 60+ years have never heard it shortened to Narfon (?). I've heard people from the villages around "Dwi mynd i dre" which translates "I'm going to town" Dre translating into Town - this description is used a lot in this area usually being used to describe the nearest larger town !
Thanks for this info. The idea came from a friend who was told by a receptionist at a hotel they stayed in in Wales that Navan could be used as an abbreviation for Carnarvon. But I haven't found anyone else who thinhs so.
I think its Nefyn (Nevin) add a odd accent to the speech and Nevin could easily be heard as Navan in my view.
That seems very likely to me. The trouble is, we can't find the people in question in Nefyn, so it makes me want to look wider.
Thanks for your input from someone who is familiar with both the area and the language.