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Scotland (Counties as in 1851-1901) => Scotland => Perthshire => Topic started by: McGroger on Friday 14 February 25 09:25 GMT (UK)
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John McGregor (alias Greigor/Gregor/Grigor) (1771), first cousin of my 3Xgreat grandfather, John McGregor (1779) was born at and had a family of 5 at “Whinny Know” farm in Moneydie parish.
The name Whinny Know (variously spelt or even given as Whinny Hill) means “a whin- or gorse-covered hill[ock]” so there were a lot of similarly named places, all over Scotland, some of which can still be found on modern maps.
Unfortunately I’ve been unable to find “my” Moneydie “Whinny Know”.
I’ve looked at several old Scottish maps, available through the National Library of Scotland’s website, including Roy’s Military Survey Map, and the maps in the online Gazetteer for Scotland, without any luck.
Any help in locating this elusive place will be much appreciated.
Peter
Note on the snip below that there were at least 2 families living on Moneydie's Whinny Know in 1818. The highlighted one is my ancestor’s cousin’s family. The Jean McGreigor higher up (June 1st) is possibly James’s niece although I haven’t researched that aspect.
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Nothing remotely similar listed in Moneydie at https://scotlandsplaces.gov.uk/about.
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This post also mentions your "Whinny Know"
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=718916.0
https://webarchive.nrscotland.gov.uk/3000/https://www.gov.scot/Resource/Doc/933/0009385.pdf
edit: Is it here in the bottom left
https://maps.nls.uk/view/74428133
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Unfortunately the Whinny Knowe on that section of the map, near Blacklaw, is in the parish of Bendochy, not the parish of Moneydie, so it's not the Whinny Knowe you are looking for.
Here https://www.theaa.com/route-planner/route?from=Moneydie,%20Perth,%20UK&to=Aberbothrie%20Potatoes%20ltd,%20Alyth,%20Blairgowrie,%20UK is a map showing roughly where Moneydie and Blacklaw are in relation to one another. Only roughly, because the AA route planner didn't recognise Blacklaw - I picked the nearest place it recognised, which is Aberbothrie. As you can see, they're about 20 miles apart.
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Thanks for your assistance, Forfarian and Wayne N.
I’ve done a bit more research, using a couple of somewhat obscure sources, and have come up with a theory that Whinny Know was part of the larger Moneydie property, Greenfield, while Whinny Know was used as a separate name for only a short period of time.
In a list of McGregor baptisms for Moneydie parish (part of a database kindly shared with me some years ago by Dr. Richard McGregor of the Clangregor Society) Whinny Know is mentioned several times, but only in the period 1805-1818.
After that time the same families had further children but no domiciles were mentioned.
Before and during that early 19th century period the property Greenfield had several mentions.
Now, the second obscure source is a list of the McGregors who signed the 1822 declaration supporting the clan chief (also made available by Richard McGregor). While it was supposed to be signed only by able-bodied men, in practice fathers included their sons even if only babies.
In this list there is no mention of a Whinny Know, but some McGregor names in the list, with a domicile of Greenfield, fairly neatly fit with the fathers and their sons baptised at Whinny Know in the 1807-1818 period (plus the non-domicile period after 1818).
There is some precedent for my conjecture: My own ancestor, William (the uncle of James mentioned in my earlier post) had taken his family from Moneydie to Loch Freuchie, Glen Quaich, to a small farm, Kinloch on the southern end of the little loch, next to a larger farm called Achnafauld. William’s son, John (James’s cousin) moved and had his family at the other end of the loch, at Easter Shian farm.
Now, in the McGregor list, Easter Shian and Wester Shian are lumped together:
Duncan;;Shion; (Perthshire??);
John;;Shion; (Perthshire??);
William;;Shion; (Perthshire??);
Alexander;;Shion; (Perthshire??);
John;junior;Shion; (Perthshire??);
William;;Duchfauld; (Perthshire??);
From other resources I know that Duncan actually lived at Wester Shian and was no close relative of the other Shian McGregors. John and his 3 sons lived at Easter Shian (John junior was only born in October 1821). Because the second William was recorded immediately after John junior I have taken him to be John senior’s father, that is, James’s uncle. Duchfauld does not exist; it is an obvious mis-transcription of Achnafauld.
So, I believe that William’s home farm, Kinloch has been lumped together under Achnafauld in the same way that the 2 Shian farms are lumped together. (Also, for the purpose of the list, the use of Achnafauld avoids using the name Kinloch, simply meaning loch end, which could be confused with many other Kinlochs.
Anyway, until I can find something that destroys the theory, I’m thinking that Whinny Know was a part of the larger Greenfield farm, given a separate name for only a small period of time when the population in that part of Moneydie parish was larger, and never getting into maps because of the short period involved.
Found later: a couple of other things that make me think that Whinny Know was a short-lived name lost to a larger property is that:
One: another very small property, Hardhill, where my ancestors lived when they first moved from Buchanty (Fowlis Wester parish) to Moneydie parish in the 1750s, appears in maps from the 18th century right up to the 20th century. And Hardhill also was close to Greenfield, again suggesting that Whinny Know was in that part of the parish.
And, Two: Another small farm, Rosebank (another one I can’t find in maps), was definitely subsumed into Greenfield, in the 1850s:
“The houses of this farmsteading are all in ruins; at present unroofed, it is now included in the farm of Greenfield, The property of the Earl of Mansfield.” [From Scotlands Places: Records Ordnance Survey Name Books Perthshire OS Name Books, 1859-1862 Perthshire volume 58 OS1/25/58/32]
Sorry this has become so longwinded and thanks again for trying to help.
Peter
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It's also worth noting Moneydie was bounded by the parishes of Auchtergaven, Redgorton, Methven, and Logiealmond. The proximity often led to administrative overlaps, especially in religious matters. Such overlaps could result in records from Moneydie being incorporated into Redgorton's parish registers, particularly if the two areas shared clergy or other resources.
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Thanks for that, Wayne N.
I've just found Rosebank (!), the property that was taken over by Greenfield in the 1850s, on a map made just a few years before that takeover. The image below shows 3 of the farms mentioned in my thoughts above: Greenfield (left), Rosebank (top) and Hardhill (bottom right).
Peter
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Well done Peter :)
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Hi All
On John Thomson map of 1827 Perthshire with Clackmannan available from https://maps.nls.uk/atlas/thomson/531.html I have found all the place names mentioned in the copy of baptisms and all are in the parish of Moneydie except the 2 bottom ones greenfield and Whinney Knowes
Yours Aye
BruceL
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Thanks, Bruce. It again suggests, I think, that the Whinny Know in question (along with Greenfield to some extent) was too small and/or short-lived as a separate farm to make it into any/many maps.
Peter
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There may have been a connection between Moneydie and Blacklaw:
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=718916.0 (https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=718916.0)
The births may have been recorded in Moneydie - but taken place over in Bendochy possibly.
It is uncommon, but parish records will indeed record place names that are external. Could have been working over there etc.
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The births may have been recorded in Moneydie - but taken place over in Bendochy possibly.
It is uncommon, but parish records will indeed record place names that are external. Could have been working over there etc.
Though it is usual, if babies born in one parish were baptised in another, for the baptism record to say which parish they were actually born in.
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Kmaleski, thanks for trying to help, but Wayne N beat you to it in Reply 2 with the same link.
Peter
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As Greenfield appears to have belonged to the Earl of Mansfield, would it be worth contacting the estate office at Scone Palace with all the information you have gathered and asking if they have any record of Whinny Know?
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Thanks very much for the suggestion, Forfarian.
My wife and I are leaving town for a couple of days this morning but I'll have a go as soon as I get back and report back here what sort of response I get.
Cheers,
Peter
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I had some spare time last night (travelling) to email the Scone Estates and a reply came in overnight:
"Good afternoon, Peter,
"I have forwarded this email on to our Archivist, Richard. I have spoken to our Property department, and they are not aware of Whinny Knowes. Our Archivist may not be able to help but it is worth a try. Please be aware that I do not expect to see Richard until mid- March as he is only on site 1 day a month.
"Kind regards
"Marie"
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I’m going to let this one go.
Richard Hunter, archivist for Scone Palace, has replied, in part:
“I'm sorry I can't help directly simply because Scone Palace archives (presumably on the grounds of scale), never purposely retained any Estate records.”
Richard also mentioned and provided links for the Perth and Kinross Library service, the Tay Valley Family History Society and the Scottish Genealogy Society, all of which would require personal and/or paid research which I’m unable/unwilling to do.
Thanks to everyone who helped and/or took an interest in this one.
Cheers,
Peter