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General => The Common Room => Topic started by: Althea7 on Friday 14 February 25 01:50 GMT (UK)
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Is it possible for a trait like artistic ability to be passed down many, many generations on recessive genes that skip generations and appear randomly?
I am wondering if there are elements in our genes that are persistent and don't get watered down through the generations? So that tiny bit that we get from our 5th great grandfather, or further back, can actually manifest very strongly in several of his present day descendants?
It is likely that some people who get these genes just won't have the circumstances to manifest artistic ability.
Maybe this is something that geneticists just haven't even thought about, as it conflicts with the idea that the genes we get from distant ancestors get watered down, eventually to nothing. But in my lifetime Lamarkianism got changed from dismissed and unscientific to Epigenetics, even though Darwin agreed with Lamark.
Maybe some geneticists somewhere have done research on this? Does anyone here have traits in their family tree from distant ancestors that keep popping up all over their family trees to the present day?
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No
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No.
My 6xGreat Grandfather was John Constable - no artistic traits passed to any of my family!
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I think that artistic and musical ability would be governed by a group of genes rather than just one so getting all of them passed down would be unlikely. However genes are randomly inherited, so it's not impossible.
Shuffle and pass on some of a deck of cards, and 4 aces might get included every time.
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It’s a no from me as well.
This brings to mind many episodes of Who Do You Think You Are when celebrities are looking to their ancestors for certain traits to explain where they inherited them from. They often find it, but that is probably more coincidental. I really don’t think it is inherited.
Re Artistic ability - it is more likely to be passed from parent to child if the child is exposed to artistic endeavours within the household, like most things.
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I suppose there may be a recessive possibility, but I can't see it hiding for several generations without being diluted. My guess is more nurture than nature. My parents met at the RCA in London, father was a painter, mother a textile person. I have very faint artistic abilities but became a chemist. I haven't come across any arty indications on either side of the tree in earlier generations either, tho maternal gt-grandmother taught music after being widowed at about 40.
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I wish - my grandmother was a good artist, and an excellent needlewoman.
She was also a good cook. So was my my mother - and my daughter. It skipped a generation with me!
;D ;D ;D
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I'd like to think so. My great, great Grandad was a professor of music, he is listed as a musician when he was in the Household Cavalry, and taught flute afterwards as a profession. His son, my great Grandad was a Musician by trade at one point, but I don't know what he played. His son, my Grandad played piano beautifully and won a place at a London Church choir school (which he couldn't take up as his mother was a widow and the family was poor). His sister was into amateur dramatics, singing Gilbert and Sullivan and like music. My father played clarinet, alto sax and violin, playing in dance bands across Leicestershire, and had his own band for some time. My brother taught himself violin up to a point, and played tunes he composed on harmonica. Then there's me: not a musical bone in my body, tone deaf, singing like a rusty nail. We two are last of our line and I don't think our 2 cousins have a musical bent. If it is in the genes it appears to go down one male line only.
On my mother's side, Grandad was a shoe designer by trade, we had his great book of wonderful designs. My mother was a watercolourist and she was very creative, designing clothes which she made, and also made and designed marquetry work. Art was one of my best subjects, my teacher encouraged me to take up[ dress design and commercial art.
Perhaps all a coincidence, but I think it's likely. don't see why, if we can inherit other traits, that we can't inherit certain abilities in the same way.
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I, too, have several generations of musical people in my family, performers and teachers of various instruments, but I think that that this trait was encouraged by each generation of parents in their children, building on a natural ability which was perhaps inherited. I inherited this musical ability to a certain extent, though my father's lack of musical skills did cancel out some of it, so although I play the piano and still sing in choirs, I seem to have channelled my inheritance into speaking foreign languages. I suppose the ability to hear a sound and reproduce it works in both skills. However, this is not a random recessive gene, but something which has been passed down and encouraged over each generation, so I guess I shall also have to say no.
Going further back in my family's history there seem to be few skills which I might have inherited from my labourer and millworker ancestors, but who knows what unknown abilities they might have had which were not encouraged by their families.
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Firstly, I am an artist trained in the science and psychology of painting with a degree in Fine Art and further research. The artistic ‘trait’ is within all of us, but very few develop the knowledge, skills and experience. Some people can find the learning process easier than others, which is often referred to as natural talent, but learning is about commitment and hard work. If you are interested, and follow that interest, you will develop skills in art, through it also applies to sport, even computing, mathematics et al. It is about finding your way through the learning process, and not inherited. I am the first in my lineage to be an artist. As a young child, if you are encouraged to draw and paint (for me it was colouring books), the chances are, you will develop an interest. Children of artistic parents may also be encouraged by watching them, and the availability of materials, tuition etc. For those who say they cannot draw, spend 30 minutes each day drawing different objects in different ways. Within 6 months you will be able to draw.
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I think that's a really interesting question. We know that certain aspects of genes can be turned on or off depending on biological environment, why not circumstance as well?
All four of my grandparents were proficient artists, but only one pursued it as a profession. My parents had a 'natural' ability to draw things, and I myself went to art college for a year. Both my children are talented artists, but do not pursue it as careers. I don't know how far back this apparent artistic ability goes, if at all, as most ancestors were labourers.
I suspect we all have artistic ability within us and it is circumstance that predicts its promotion or not. Paper, pens, paints, pictures and glue were always available to me as a child, and I made sure they were to my children too, so they became good, practiced artists. However, I like the idea that where someone becomes highly accomplished and hones their artistic senses on all levels, emotionally, even somatically, then maybe this translates into tiny genetic alterations that can be passed on and recur.
Thanks for such a lovely question that really made me think!
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I am sure it is nearly all nurture. Since discovering classical music as a teenager I have maintained that interest ever since, but because the only source of music in the house while I grew up was my father's voice, the only instrument I have ever played has been the gramophone, tho I sing with a choral society. Like learning a language, I think becoming a musician has to begin early, and needs a musical ear to develop fully. Perhaps the same with visual arts ?
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I do firmly believe that abilities in areas like music and Art/Design can persist through families. My mother was a talented and skillful painter of flowers, mainly watercolour, and immediately prior to WW2 she went to Art College. I used to assume that all adults could "see" and draw whatever they wanted, and it was a surprise to me that my first teachers, when I started school, couldn't do this. I'd been brought up to use a range of Art materials confidently, and to see properly as a start to be able to depict. To judge by the pictures I'd done as a child, that my mother kept, this was done very competently from an early age. Apart from genteel drawing and sketching ladies, we've found little more on the maternal side.
My grandfather on the paternal side was a himself talented and able painter of largely architectural subjects, and, as part of a family firm, did large murals in hotels and theatre. I have also found when I started researching family history that a Mr Toplis, of Sark, an artist, amongst relatives on my paternal great grandmother's ancestry was quite well-known, and many others seem to have been sufficiently talented to be of note. Skilled cabinet makers also featured in my paternal grandfather's relatives and ancestors. My own first degree subject was Graphic Design, and I have a range of design skills used throughout my own working life.
I can agree that the environment a person is brought up in encourages the development of such skills - but there does have to be some native ability there, no matter how latent.
On the other hand, on both sides of my ancestry there is evidence of a range of musical abilities, from church organists to band and orchestral performers, - but despite slogging through years oif piano lessons, and being a competent choir person at need, quite good at sight reading, I'm the non-musical one, really.
And although my mother was an excellent cook, I've always been hopeless ( no proper sense of smell, my OH says)
TY
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I believe that musical ability, artistic ability and many others are inherited, often skipping a generation
or two.
But I would also include many other abilities, engineering, the ability to use tools, practical commonsense and others.
One of my daughters has the ability to pick up any musical instrument and produce a tune, entirely untaught, it can only have come from her paternal grandmother.
So my answer is yes
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I think it is a mix of nature and nurture. When you get back five or six generations, there are so many other gene contributors that the odds would be slim that a specific gene is passed down, but it does happen, but it would be rare. It also begs the question - how many genes are involved in artistic talent? I doubt if it is just one gene, so genes from other ancestors must play a part. They do say musical ability is connected to mathematical talent and I do see this in my former in-laws.
My mother was a published nonfiction writer and I enjoy writing as well, and while I don't have a flair for creative writing, I have a large repertoire of educational resources that almost all include nonfiction texts. On the other hand, neither of my brothers have ever pursued anything in that field. Two of my three children are good writers.
Then of course, that raises the question - do you become a good writer by training and/or by reading a lot? The latter certainly helps if you have the kind of brain that absorbs sentence structure and grammar. BTW, I had very little grammar in school, but I usually know what is right or wrong, so in my case, a lot of absorption.
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I have several male and female dressmakers/weavers/ropemakers in London who had ascendants who were the same, but I am not sure it was a hereditary skill, but more the fact it was very a common occupation at the time. Not just London but nationwide and worldwide.
As for artists, I feel it is the same, it is a learned thing.
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One of my daughters has the ability to pick up any musical instrument and produce a tune, entirely untaught, it can only have come from her paternal grandmother.
Well, perhaps, but not necessarily - surely these aptitudes may just arise accidentally ? There are plenty of examples of composers who appeared to emerge from a non-musical lineage.
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Aristotle famously said, ‘Give me a child till he’s seven, and I will show you the man’. My Godson is now three with no artistic traits in his lineage. When he was two, his mother and grandmother encouraged him to paint, even buying him small, cheap canvases. Because I paint, his first ever canvas was sent to me. For his third birthday last month, I bought him a small table easel. He liked the easel and now always wants to use it when he paints. Once he started to use the easel it made sense, as painting is easier when there is an edge to work up to, so potentially less mess on a table. Rather than bending over, it provides a better position when painting and you can see what has been created. I was told he was concentrating more and thinking about the placement of each mark. He may not become an artist, but ‘artistic vision’ and creativity are useful in many areas. I wish I had the opportunity to paint at two or three, but waited until six before I had a colouring book. Then I was encouraged to draw, but not really supported until I went to art college.
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Don’t know about musical ability, but both my mother and I used to sing. She was an alto with the Liverpool Philharmonic Choir.
My husband is tone deaf, can’t even clap on the beat. My daughter is also tone deaf. Her small son is also tone deaf, can’t carry a tune in a bucket. Nor has he any sense of rhythm. Don’t know what causes tone deafness, but it looks like that, at least, can be inherited.
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I think that propensity is real but I don't know whether it is genetic or emotional (a proud sense of family loyalty or identity). Many families are very proud of generations of the same occupation, equally there are families where a departure from family tradition is a major family conflict.
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Because many of our ancestors were often labourers and in similar low paying jobs which they needed to support their often large families they had neither the time, inclination nor finances to undertake pursuits like painting, even as a hobby. I think it would be impossible for most of us to know if any of our distant ancestors possessed any artistic abilities.
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My husband is tone deaf, can’t even clap on the beat. My daughter is also tone deaf. Her small son is also tone deaf, can’t carry a tune in a bucket. Nor has he any sense of rhythm. Don’t know what causes tone deafness, but it looks like that, at least, can be inherited.
I've heard musical teachers say that hardly anyone is genuinely 'tone deaf' - presumably meaning non-musical - but some just find it much harder than others to learn. Maybe it is like dyslexia ? Perhaps that is also inheritable ?
I personally have enjoyed choral singing since about the age of 15, but because I did not learn music from a young age, although I understand the blobs on the lines, I have never learnt the knack of reading the sound off the page, as it were.