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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Devon => Topic started by: RStJohn on Monday 10 February 25 08:13 GMT (UK)
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Dear all,
lately I have been researching the history of the British foreign office in Algeria, and there I have stumbled upon a certain Mr. Nathaniel Welsford (1784-1846) married to Mary Plimsaul, vice-consul in Oran in the years 1826-1846, but apparently originally a GROCER from Exeton.
I would love to know who his parents were, and if he is in any way related to the seafaring Giles Welsford (with whom he appears on some deeds). I suspect that one John Welsford was his brother, as he also married into the Plimsaul family... Also, does anyone have an idea of what the job description "grocer" entailed in 1807? Would this person be a merchant or have contacts with merchants? I just can't help but wonder how a grocer got to be a British consul wothout military experience.
With best Regards,
St. JOHN
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I have a link to this WELSFORD branch through marriage. Crediton, Bowder Hill (Presbyterian): Births & Baptisms show a page devoted to the family:
Sons & daughters of Richd. & Rebekah WELSFORD
8 children are listed, including:
"A second Giles WELSFORD (first died) born 6th December 1752, baptised 7 January 1753". (mine)
"A second Nathaniel WELSFORD born 6th August 1763, baptised the 28th by the Rev Mr B H---, the same day that my brother Roger WELSFORD buried his wife Ursula".
Presumably your Nathaniel 1784 descended from one of Richard & Rebekah's children. Giles 1752 became an MP and when he moved to Plymouth opened the Abbey Wine Vaults with 2 partners.
A Nathaniel WELSFORD of Exeter, described as a haberdasher, dealer and chapman, declared bankruptcy in 1806. An apprenticeship in haberdashery with Nathaniel as master is shown in 1799, so I suspect this is the 1763 Nathaniel, not yours.
If you 'google' the name you will find many references to his time as Vice-Consul during a period of great unrest.
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I think you might be onto something. My suspicion is that your Nathaniel is the father of my Nathaniel, based on this military census list: https://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/DEV/Exeter/HolyTrinity/HolyTrinity1803
where my young Nathaniel is listed with an older Nathaniel and Enos, whom I suspect to be his brother, because 1) he married the sister of my Nathaniel's later wife, 2) my Nathaniel named his second son Enos - and this son was later, with 15, an assistant of an astronomer in Oran.
By the way, the history of my Nathaniels children is surely fascinating, though I do not know much about them. He had at least 2 sons: James (Merchant dabbling in questionable matters, business partner of the famous Jacob Lasry) and Enos, whom I mentioned, and daughters: Elisabeth, Jeanne (married to famous botanist Giles Mumby) and Marie (married to a certain mr. Levy). You can find them in Algerian Newspapers after Nathaniel's death.
Anyway, if Nathaniel (the elder) is my Nathaniel's father, Giles (the GROCER listed below in the census list) would be my Nathaniel's uncle. I am wondering if this is the same Giles from this adventure account?: https://spink.com/lot/20025000567
Also, based on the content of his letters about the Totnes riots in 1801, I think Giles was importing and selling wheat to Totnes in the early 1800s... So is GROCER just an euphemism for someone more involved in trade?
There is a wealth of information about (a) Giles Welsford, and is very interesting to read about him in the National Archives...
See for example the will of a Giles Welsford, MERCHANT: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D229229
As I sadly cannot go to Plymouth in the next few months, I could not do more thorough research - but I think I exhausted most of what is to be found online, with the exception of genealogy sites to which I have no access... I would be very grateful for any further information.
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Good Morning
You have the right family but not the right father.
Nathaniel born 1784 is the son of Giles Welsford 1753-2.12.1835 .
Giles's Pcc Will gives him as Gentleman of St Sidwell Exeter. Wife Sarah nee Calverwell died /buried 11.9.1817 and he is leaving his estate to his three children with lots of bequests to different members of the poor and chapels/Churches.
Daughter Sarah Wilkes and her husband William and their children
Son Nathanial and his present wife Mary and their children
Son George
Other son Enos salter and cheesemaker of Fore St buried 20.2.1835 at Castle St Non-conf burial ground like his Dad had just died and is not mentioned.
Giles fuller of St Leonards married Sarah Calverwell of Topsham at St Leonards 21.4.1778.
wit George Galverwell and Sam could be Plimsol.
Giles took on apprentice John Downamn 27.3.1783.
Children seem to be
George 1779-1854 sawyer ,architectand Consol dies Radipole PCC Will son George Calverwll Welsford and his wife Martha. Sister Sarah Wilkes .Grandchildren George Boulter Welsford,Richard Searing? Welsford ,William W and Martha Boulter W.
Daughter Sarah Stead wife of William of Seaton.
Enos 1783-20.2.1835 salter and Cheesman ,previously Haberdasher.Married Jane Plimsol 31.12.1805 at st Andrew.
Your Nathanial born c 1784 . I can see baptisms for James Plimsol W 20.7.1807 reg 31.8.1807
Sarah Culverwell Welsford born 16.6.1786 reg 17.7.1786 South St Baptist married 30.1.1807 St Mary in the Arches William Wilks of St Edmunds on the Bridge linen draper.
Sarah seems to be the only one whose birth is registered so there would be other children.
Giles must have been away somewhere else when the military census was taken.
The other Nathaniel born 1753 would be the uncle ,with his wife Margaret Roope Larksworthy married 15.11.1794 at Mary Major.He is an haberdasher .
Hope that helps
ps I'm not sure where the Giles 1852-1819 Charles comes in.I'll try to do a bit of digging.
Ciderdrinker
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Hi Again
The other Giles 1752-1819 is the son of Richard Wlesford's brother Roger and wife Ursula.
Only two marriages for Welsford's at Totnes -Giles 1753-1819 to Mary Adams 23.7.1782 and his brother John Parr Welsford to her sister Susannah 3.11.1788.
Mary bapt 28.3.1755 d of William and Susannah 10.6.1763.
Roger and Ursulla's- Ursula 19.6.1748-2.11.1748,Ursulla 18.7.1749- 20.9.1749,Elizabeth 9.9.1750 ,Giles 4.2./16.2.1752 ,Sarah 6.8/16.8.1753 ,son 29.11.1754-1.1.1755 ,son 1.12.1755-21.12.1755 ,possible Peter 15.3./24.3.1757,Joanna 3.11./4.12.1758.John Parr 18.6/13.7.1760 nad Roger 10.12./23.12.1767 ?.
It looks like Ursulla was related to the dissenting minister at Crediton who registered the children's births Rev John Parr.Probably his daughter.(John Parr's will 1777 names John Parr Welsford as his grandson)
Roger sergemaker bound to appear in Court 1769
https://devon-cat.swheritage.org.uk/records/QS/4/1769/Epiphany/RE/10
Roger was the victim having lost 23 yards of serge stolen by John Gidley.
And as we know Roger was the brother of Richard Welsford of Crediton grandfather of your Nathanial born 1784.
Richard married Rebecca Weeks of Crediton 2.1.1748 at Shobrooke
He was also a sergemaker and victim of theft
https://devon-cat.swheritage.org.uk/records/QS/4/1754/Michaelmas/CO/14
Ciderdrinker
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Hi Again
The other Giles 1752-1819 is the son of Richard Wlesford's brother Roger and wife Ursula.
Only two marriages for Welsford's at Totnes -Giles 1753-1819 to Mary Adams 23.7.1782 and his brother John Parr Welsford to her sister Susannah 3.11.1788.
Mary bapt 28.3.1755 d of William and Susannah 10.6.1763.
Roger and Ursulla's- Ursula 19.6.1748-2.11.1748,Ursulla 18.7.1749- 20.9.1749,Elizabeth 9.9.1750 ,Giles 4.2./16.2.1752 ,Sarah 6.8/16.8.1753 ,son 29.11.1754-1.1.1755 ,son 1.12.1755-21.12.1755 ,possible Peter 15.3./24.3.1757,Joanna 3.11./4.12.1758.John Parr 18.6/13.7.1760 nad Roger 10.12./23.12.1767 ?.
It looks like Ursulla was related to the dissenting minister at Crediton who registered the children's births Rev John Parr.Probably his daughter.(John Parr's will 1777 names John Parr Welsford as his grandson)
Roger sergemaker bound to appear in Court 1769
https://devon-cat.swheritage.org.uk/records/QS/4/1769/Epiphany/RE/10
Roger was the victim having lost 23 yards of serge stolen by John Gidley.
And as we know Roger was the brother of Richard Welsford of Crediton grandfather of your Nathanial born 1784.
Richard married Rebecca Weeks of Crediton 2.1.1748 at Shobrooke
He was also a sergemaker and victim of theft
https://devon-cat.swheritage.org.uk/records/QS/4/1754/Michaelmas/CO/14
Ciderdrinker
Thank you Ciderdrinker for all of this information. I was never certain as to which Giles (both born 1752) was mine, but the marriage between John Parr WELSFORD and Susanna ADAMS appears to confirm the Roger/Ursula parentage. Giles died in 1818 and was buried 26 Jun 1818 - I am currently trying to decipher his will (probate 1819) which is of the most appalling quality, so will take some time.
Frances Adams WELSFORD (3rd child of Giles & Mary Adams WELSFORD) went onto marry James LILLICRAP (later Rear Admiral James LILLICRAP)