RootsChat.Com
England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Yorkshire (East Riding & York) => Topic started by: Karytay on Wednesday 05 February 25 16:50 GMT (UK)
-
I do not know if I am at the right place, for all it says on the marriage record that Edward Rogers was born in Yorkshire. I see there are three Yorkshire places.
Edward Rogers was born abt. 1823 in Yorkshire , father Richard Rogers. He was married to Sarah Corbett b. abt.1832 in Tipton. They married in 1852 Worcester, at Ribbesford.
He then left England abt. 1859 for South Africa by himself.
Trying to find his parents and siblings.
Thanks
-
I do not know if I am at the right place, for all it says on the marriage record that Edward Rogers was born in Yorkshire.
English marriage certificates do not give a place of birth, normally just a place of residence at the time of the marriage :-\
-
What was his occupation on marriage?
-
I see we have been here before
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=786991.0
The marriage you are referring to was Edwards 2nd marriage in South Africa
Do you have his first marriage
-
Is it not the one in Kidderminster, 1852?
Sorry - just skimmed thro’ the previous thread - needs closer reading.
-
Yes I asked about him before. It is his second marriage in South Africa that has place of birth. And his death notice in South Africa just say England and has his father's name as Richard Rogers. No mother's name. Kidderminster was his first marriage. And I do have it, thanks. On it, it also has Richard Rogers as his father.
What I thought might help, is if I can find immigration/Emigration records for him. They might give a birth date or age. Maybe a place of birth as well.
I have a passanger list for 1859, where it says he is 36. He sailed on the ship "Lady of the Lake" Standing surety for him was a Robert Rogers.
What make this so hard, there are several Richard Rogers in England with son named Edward.
Would Kew Archives be of any help? Is there any where else I can look?
-
I doubt you would find anything at Kew without a lot more information. What was his fathers occupation on the 1852 marriage and who were the witnesses
-
What was his occupation on marriage?
Edward was a gardener on his first marriage.
-
His father was a Blacksmith as well as his wife's father.
Witnesses were Joseph Stokes and Eliza Bewley
-
Double baptism at Dudley, 19 November 1854.
Ann Eliza, born 29 October 1852
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817c30ae93790eca3d4122b
Hannah Elizabeth, born 26 October 1854
https://www.freereg.org.uk/search_records/5817c30ae93790eca3d4125a
Parents Edward + Sarah Rogers
Abode Tipton
Father a Stock Taker
-
Yes, jonwarrn, have all the children's baptism, thanks, there were ten children, 4 were born in England and the rest in South Africa.
I was rather disappointed that the couple did not name their children after their parents.
I thought that it was a common practice then. But they were one of the odd couples. So it makes it harder to find the names of the grandparents.
Not one son was named Richard, there was a son named Alfred Edward, for the wife Sarah's father was Edward but then he could have been named after his father.
Thought Ann Eliza was Sarah's mother's name, but her mother's name turned out to be Susanna. No girl has that name.
Then I thought Hannah Elizabeth was Edward's mother's name, wrong again.
-
His father was a Blacksmith as well as his wife's father.
Witnesses were Joseph Stokes and Eliza Bewley
It turns out that the marriage is on ancestry.
2 February 1852, Ribbesford
Nice image, terrible transcription.
Edward Boger + Sarah Corlett ::)
If only we could pin down Edward in the 1851 census.
-
Yes, that was what I was hoping for. But have not found anything. He would be about 28 years old, so he probably would be out on his own. The 1841 census he would about 18, also not at home.
I have told a cousin, that he will have to go to England to find out more about Edward Rogers. Go and hunt down the elusive Edward.
Thanks for trying to help jonwarrn
-
Hi
We haven't given up yet!
From your earlier thread, which seems to have been a help with Sarah's family
Edward Rogers came arrived in Durban, South Africa on the 24 May 1859 on the ship "Lady of the Lake" 2nd Voyage. A Robert Rogers was his surety.
Sarah Rogers nee Corbett arrived in the Durban, South Africa on the 17 June 1861 on board the ship "Barbadoes" with her were her three children and Thomas Corbett. Sureties for the family were Edward Rogers and Robert Rogers.
So it looks it's possible that Robert was a relation of Edward, maybe a brother?
I see from The eGGSA Passenger project that a Robert Rogers of Durban also stood surety for Thomas Rogers and family, who arrived 7 March 1859 on the Priscilla
Thomas Rogers 30
Elizabeth Rogers 25
Thomas Rogers 4
John Rogers 1
Could they also be connected? :-\
Because of the commonness of those names I can't really get a lead on them in England.
Will also look and see if I can find anything for Robert Rogers. Maybe they were related.
Did you get anywhere with Robert?
-
it says on the marriage record that Edward Rogers was born in Yorkshire.
So Edward's second marriage was 1 November 1887, in Pretoria.
On FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSVZ-5SJW-C
It certainly says born England Yorkshire!
Is there any chance it could be wrong? :-\
-
We're on a Yorkshire board, but if we were to ignore that wonderful county (all three Ridings!) just to see what else there might be...
Smethcott in Shropshire. It's about 40 miles from Ribbesford.
There we have baptisms to Richard and Sarah Rogers. Richard was a Blacksmith.
John, baptised 11 August 1811
(though no occupation is given for Richard, this became standard in 1813)
William, 2 July 1815
Ann, 13 March 1818
3 February 1822
Edward
son of Richard + Sarah Rogers
Abode Glebe ?? Smethcott
Father a Blacksmith
2 May 1824
Robert
son of Richard + Sarah Rogers
Abode Smethcott
Father a Blacksmith
Eliza, baptised 17 October 1826
Richard, 22 February 1829
Thomas, 12 February 1832
Richard and Sarah are in Smethcott in 1841. With them are John, Richard junior, and Thomas.
But not Edward and Robert. There are no burials for them in Smethcott, so it seems they didn't die in infancy.
Hard to be sure if they are around anywhere in 1841, because of the lack of personal detail in that census.
I can't see either of them in the 1851 census.
The youngest, Thomas Rogers, 19, born Smethcott, could be in Liverpool. Not sure that he can be found after that.
If they were stilll alive, what happened to them?
Richard the blacksmith appears to have died in 1842, and Sarah probably died in 1850.
Anyway, this famiy might perhaps be worth bearing in mind, at least, if only to eliminate them.
-
(Did you get anywhere with Robert?)
No I could not find anything for Robert. I looked for earlier passengers lists but they only start from 1858 upwards. So if Robert came to South Africa earlier, maybe he came vie Cape Town
Edward born in Yorkshire, could be wrong. I thought he was born in Shropshire at first. I saw the one in Shropshire and really considered a contender for Edward. Now that you have brought it up, I wonder if it is him?
Something else interesting, on Sarah's emigration application Edward's name and it looks like Richard Rogers of Pietermaritburg are there as sureties.
-
Looking at the emigration records for Natal again, I see Richard Rogers stood surety for several people starting in the year 1839. He was a Blacksmith by trade.
Robert Rogers stood surety from 1851, he was a overseer for the company Smith and ?
both lived in Pietermaritzburg
-
Well you've been able to find more sureties by those two than I can!
There is a death of a Richard Rogers, Blacksmith, in Durban on 19 November 1868.
Age 39, which does match with the Richard Rogers junior from Smethcott.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91Q-QSB6-4
Possible marriage to Harriet Wood, 8 June 1850
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9TWT-93PR
She was a widow. Both of full age.
It was by licence. It says consent given by parents, which is strange?
Witnesses George Williamson, Margaret Bayly or Bayley
Baptism of Elvester in 1854 (born 1852) The name Bayly pops up again here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9TW1-KXS
Baptisms of three more children, John, George and Robert, 21 September 1858
One of the sponsors is Ann Rogers.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9TWY-N7G
Did he marry again in 1864? Spouse is Margaret Bayly!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9TW1-YZK
Ann Rogers was a witness. Who was she?
-
Trying to find William Rogers, baptized in Smethcott in 1815, one of the children of Richard & Sarah, and we have a marriage in Warrington, 20 January 1845.
William Rogers and Elizabeth Helsby.
He is 28, she is 26, both single.
Residence for both Bank Street.
William Rogers is a Gardener.
His father is Roger Rogers, Blacksmith! Hoping that Roger is an error for Richard.
Elizabeth's father is James Helsby, Bricklayer.
Witnesses John Rogers and Ellen Helsby.
Faint image of the marriage here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3QS7-L96J-3J5R
Partial transcript here
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NFNQ-WN8
A fuller transcript can be found on Lancashire OPC.
https://www.lan-opc.org.uk/Search/indexp.html
Birth of a daughter
ROGERS, ELIZABETH ANN-HELSBY
Mother's Maiden Surname: HELSBY
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in WIRRAL UNION Volume 19 Page 438
I think that her mum died at this time :(
ROGERS, ELIZABETH
Age at Death (in years): 31
GRO Reference: 1850 J Quarter in WIRRAL UNION Volume 19 Page 261
Burial at Wodchurch of Elizabeth Elsby Rogers, 27 May 1850. Age 31
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3T5-HX3
-
Something exciting, perhaps!
Have we stumbled across Edward Rogers from Smethcott in the 1851 census? :-\
I think there has been a mix up here with places of birth. But I don't have access to the image tonight.
The widowed William Rogers is in Oxton, Cheshire.
This is what I have been able to glean from the available free transcript and indexes.
Piece 2174 Folio 58 Page 10 in enumeration district 2c
Household Schedule 46
Poplar Road, possibly living Poplar Place
William Rogers Head Wid 35 Gardener, born Shropshire Smethcott
Elizabeth Ann Helsby Rogers Daur 10 mo born Cheshire Oxton
(then presumably the following birthplaces have been dittoed from hers?)
Sarah Rogers Mother in law Wid 56 House Keeper Cheshire Oxton
Edmund Rogers Brother Unm 27 Gardener Cheshire Oxton
Ann Rogers Sister Unm 33 Cheshire Oxton
Harriet Rawlings Unm 15 Servant Cheshire Oxton
See FamilySearch
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG2N-CQX
A puzzle here is Sarah. I thought "our" Sarah died in 1850. And apparently it says mother in law. So need to find out more about Elizabeth Helsby's family.
-
Jonwarrn
You are correct Edmund’s pob has been dittoed
-
Hi
Thank you very much, Ladyhawk! Very kind of you to look that up.
So I am hoping it's the place of birth of those three Rogers (or two of them, anyway) that is wrong, not their surname!
John
-
A puzzle here is Sarah. I thought "our" Sarah died in 1850. And apparently it says mother in law.
So need to find out more about Elizabeth Helsby's family.
I think this is Elizabeth’s baptism father James occ bricklayer and her parents marriage
Elizabeth Helsby
Baptism 30 May 1819 Hale, Lancashire
Father James Helsby Mother Ellen
Register Type Bishop's Transcripts
James Helsby, bricklayer
Marriage 26 Oct 1818 Parish Hale, Lancashire
Spouse Ellen Hooker
Register Type Bishop's Transcript
-
Trying to find William Rogers, baptized in Smethcott in 1815, one of the children of Richard & Sarah, and we have a marriage in Warrington, 20 January 1845.
William Rogers and Elizabeth Helsby.
He is 28, she is 26, both single.
Residence for both Bank Street.
William Rogers is a Gardener.
His father is Roger Rogers, Blacksmith! Hoping that Roger is an error for Richard.
It looks as if widowed William remarries
Marriage 11 Oct 1869 Liverpool, St Nicholas, Lancashire
William Rogers, occ gardener
Father Richard Rogers, blacksmith
Spouse Eliza Ebrell
1871
Piece 3752
Folio 70
Page number 46
William Rogers Head 55 Smetheath, Shropshire, occ gardener
Eliza Rogers 39 Wife
William Rogers 8 mths Son
Ellen Ebbrell15 Stepdaughter
Christian H Wenlock 46 Lodger
-
So if Edward WAS born in Shropshire all people mentioned could be relatives and family. For the names are all more or less the same, as mentioned before.
It is a pity I cannot find anything more in South Africa that can help.
-
I think having Edward/Edmund from Smethcott in 1851 (albeit with the wrong place of birth recorded!) is a step forward, as he has the gardener occupation that matches the marriage in 1852.
I wonder if sister Ann, still unmarried in 1851, went to South Africa as well and could be the Ann Rogers who appears in records for Richard junior there? :-\
But I can't see anything in SA about her at all.
Sarah Rogers in Oxton in 1851 may have died in 1853
ROGERS, SARAH
Age at Death (in years): 64
GRO Reference: 1853 J Quarter in WIRRAL Volume 08A Page 286
Age up on that given in the previous census, but possibly more appropriate.
Buried, like William's wife, at Woodchurch (the parish for Oxton), 15 May 1853. I don't think we have an image anywhere.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3T5-CN5
The death certificate (available from the GRO as a £3 digital image) might clear up whether she was the widow of Richard the blacksmith, or not.
I am thinking that on Edward's second marriage, there may be a mistake for his place of birth.
He said Shropshire, but it was misheard as Yorkshire.
-
You have worked very hard jon with these records - and thanks to Ladyhawk too. It looks very promising.
The death record of Sarah Rogers looks to be essential in this case.
Well done.
Added
Looks to be the same Sarah Rogers - Cheshire BMD shows subdistrict Woodchurch - as 1851
-
Hi heywood
I've seen the burial of Sarah in Smethcott, 15 Feb 1850, age 69. It gives a specific place as abode (attached), not sure what it is, or whether it helps. I don't think it's a different parish, because the register is noting that on some of the other burials.
But if Sarah in Oxton in 1851 is the mother, her place of birth being wrong is going to be a bit of a nuisance for anyone researching this family.
I see from The eGGSA Passenger project that a Robert Rogers of Durban also stood surety for Thomas Rogers and family, who arrived 7 March 1859 on the Priscilla
Could they also be connected? :-\
Also, this Thomas is not the brother of Edward and the others from Smethcott.
You have worked very hard jon with these records - and thanks to Ladyhawk too.
Thank you. I've got one last thing to post! A quick one about Thomas, the right one this time, I hope. It could provide a reasonably good link between the Smethcott Rogers family and South Africa.
-
There is another two records that I can order from the Pretoria archives.
Both dealing with judicial separation of Edward and Sarah.
Do you think these records are worth getting, will they have useful information on them?
-
Hi heywood
I've seen the burial of Sarah in Smethcott, 15 Feb 1850, age 69. It gives a specific place as abode (attached), not sure what it is, or whether it helps. I don't think it's a different parish, because the register is noting that on some of the other burials.
But if Sarah in Oxton in 1851 is the mother, her place of birth being wrong is going to be a bit of a nuisance for anyone researching this family.
Thank you. I've got one last thing to post! A quick one about Thomas, the right one this time, I hope. It could provide a reasonably good link between the Smethcott Rogers family and South Africa.
Jon,
There is a William in 1851 - a gardener and his place of birth looks to be Beachest/Beachcot.
Betchcott - “ It lies in the parish of Smethcott, in the northern foothills of the Long Mynd. The nearest town is Church Stretton. ” - Wikipedia
So, it is the right area.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6X-3JR?lang=en
I hope it doesn’t complicate all your hard work.
-
Hi heywood
Thanks, it's a great help that you have identified the place.
With this info, and the very good free indexes on findmypast, I find that in 1841 if I use Beachcott as a keyword or street name for Church Stretton RD, it brings up 32 results, all in Smethcott.
There are three Rogers listed, another William and Ann, plus John!
On FS
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:MQRK-BVF
Then in 1851, now using Betchcott as a keyword or hamlet name, it brings up William and Ann Rogers again, and also a younger William.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG6D-KFK
I guess it doesn't really help us with the Sarah death in 1850, so I am going with Sarah in Oxton for now!
-
There is another two records that I can order from the Pretoria archives.
Both dealing with judicial separation of Edward and Sarah.
Do you think these records are worth getting, will they have useful information on them?
Well, to be honest I don't know.
From a family history point of view, they would be something you would want to see or get hold of at some point, if it wasn't too expensive.
But, based on such records in England & Wales, and what we can see of South African records generally, I wouldn't have thought there would be anything about Edward's origins in them. But who knows?
-
Have you gone off the Smethcott idea?
With the youngest son Thomas, baptised at Smethcott, 12 February 1832, there is a good indication that he went to South Africa.
Last seen in the 1851 census in Liverpool, when he was 19, and a Plasterer.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG16-RYK
Then a marriage in Rhuddlan, Flintshire, 11 July 1853 (image is on ancestry)
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:KCT4-NJ4
Thomas Rogers, 21, Bachelor, Plasterer, father Richard Rogers, Smith
+
Mary Sumner, 21, Spinster, father Samuel Sumner, Gentleman's Servant
Residence for both Rhyl
Three births
Samuel John, Sep 1854, St. Asaph
Sarah Ann, Sep 1856, St. Asaph
and
ROGERS, ROBERT
Mother's Maiden Surname: SUMNER
GRO Reference: 1858 D Quarter in WIRRAL Volume 08A Page 371
Looks like Robert was baptised at St. Peter, Pietermaritzburg, Natal, 16 December 1860
Born 25 September 1858
Parents Thomas & Mary
Father a Plaisterer
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-9TWY-F18
And baptised again there, along with a sister Elizabeth Jane, 10 September 1862!
This time giving date of birth as 25 Sep 1859 ::)
Anyway, there are more children, and then a death of Thomas Rogers in Pietermaritzburg, 8 May 1869.
Age 37, Plasterer. Died of apoplexy.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-C91Q-QSY5-F
-
I have to send all this info that all of you have found to my cousin and see what he makes of it.
-
Got a baptism for Sarah Ann Rogers in Birkenhead, 18 October 1857.
Thomas a Plasterer.
Can't read the exact place of abode in Birkenhead.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DBG9-DH7
Didn't realise, Oxton is so close to Birkenhead, must be virtually a suburb today.
-
Then again, Thomas and Mary Rogers in Natal had a daughter Sarah Ann, born 20 September 1860, baptised in 1861
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33SQ-GTWY-FKW
I think I'm going to leave it there!
-
Got a baptism for Sarah Ann Rogers in Birkenhead, 18 October 1857.
Thomas a Plasterer.
Can't read the exact place of abode in Birkenhead.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DBG9-DH7
Didn't realise, Oxton is so close to Birkenhead, must be virtually a suburb today.
Beckwith Street
-
Got a baptism for Sarah Ann Rogers in Birkenhead, 18 October 1857.
Thomas a Plasterer.
Can't read the exact place of abode in Birkenhead.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DBG9-DH7
Didn't realise, Oxton is so close to Birkenhead, must be virtually a suburb today.
There is a burial at St Mary, Birkenhead 22 Seot 1858
Sarah Ann Rogers, 13 months
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:F3G4-GJW?lang=en
-
I think one might be going done another Rogers line, with all this about Thomas and Sarah.
I think all of you have done your best to help, lets just put Edward and the rest to bed for the time being.
I am going to try and find decedents of Edwards first lot of children here in South Africa. If any information past down, it should be them that would have received it.
My line comes from the second lot of children, and I remember my Aunt saying she thinks her grandfather was Scottish or possible Welsh. But I think she real did not know where he was born.
-
Hi
Well I do wish you good luck with your search for Edward Rogers.
I do think however that it may be difficult to find someone else who ticks so many boxes as the Edward from Smethcott.
The purpose of the other info was to find out about, and establish what happened to, the other members of the family of Richard Rogers, the blacksmith of Smethcott. Particularly since they included a son Robert. And as some seem to disappear from records in England quite early on, did they die here or did they emigrate somewhere, possibly to South Africa.
-
I agree with you jon. As i wrote before you have worked really hard to help here by going sideways etc as we do.
I am sure it is appreciated by Karytay and the cousin.
Hopefully they will find out more in other records.
-
Yes I do appreciate what you have done jonwarrn. And the connection with Richard Rogers that you found my cousin and I must follow the info and see what we can find how in South Africa. If we can find a connection here. There must be something some place.
Thanks a lot for making me aware of the others and that I should not dismiss the possibility that they could be related.
Thanks again